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Split Thread Trump-Kennedy center sues artist for cancelling because of name change

Andy_Ross

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Andy_Ross
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What a surprise

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The jazz musician who abruptly backed out of hosting a Christmas Eve concert at the Trump-Kennedy Center will face a $1 million lawsuit for the “political stunt,” the head of the performing arts venue revealed Friday

nypost.com

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The annual “Christmas Eve Jazz Jam” was cancelled after drummer and vibraphone player Chuck Redd pulled out of the holiday tradition in protest of President Trump’s name being added to the iconic v…
nypost.com nypost.com
 
Andy_Ross said:
What a surprise

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The jazz musician who abruptly backed out of hosting a Christmas Eve concert at the Trump-Kennedy Center will face a $1 million lawsuit for the “political stunt,” the head of the performing arts venue revealed Friday

nypost.com

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The annual “Christmas Eve Jazz Jam” was cancelled after drummer and vibraphone player Chuck Redd pulled out of the holiday tradition in protest of President Trump’s name being added to the iconic v…
nypost.com nypost.com
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This too shall be quickly dismissed.
 
Andy_Ross said:
What a surprise

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The jazz musician who abruptly backed out of hosting a Christmas Eve concert at the Trump-Kennedy Center will face a $1 million lawsuit for the “political stunt,” the head of the performing arts venue revealed Friday

nypost.com

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The annual “Christmas Eve Jazz Jam” was cancelled after drummer and vibraphone player Chuck Redd pulled out of the holiday tradition in protest of President Trump’s name being added to the iconic v…
nypost.com nypost.com
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They seem to be claiming both that the concert had “dismal ticket sales and lack of donor support” and that its cancellation has cost them a million dollars.
 
Mojo said:
They seem to be claiming both that the concert had “dismal ticket sales and lack of donor support” and that its cancellation has cost them a million dollars.
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The artist wasn't responsible for this, it was the idiot whose name has been added to the place.
 
Andy_Ross said:
What a surprise

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The jazz musician who abruptly backed out of hosting a Christmas Eve concert at the Trump-Kennedy Center will face a $1 million lawsuit for the “political stunt,” the head of the performing arts venue revealed Friday

nypost.com

Trump-Kennedy Center filing $1M lawsuit against musician who pulled out of Christmas Eve concert over name change

The annual “Christmas Eve Jazz Jam” was cancelled after drummer and vibraphone player Chuck Redd pulled out of the holiday tradition in protest of President Trump’s name being added to the iconic v…
nypost.com nypost.com
Click to expand...

So, a free concert, which by definition generates no revenue, cost the Kennedy Center a million dollarwhen it was cancelled???

Would AMBASSADOR Grenell actually risk filing such a lawsuit and risk having a court determine that the name change didn't have legal standing? Much less put up with the ill will that the lawsuit would generate?
 
TellyKNeasuss said:
So, a free concert, which by definition generates no revenue, cost the Kennedy Center a million dollarwhen it was cancelled???

Would AMBASSADOR Grenell actually risk filing such a lawsuit and risk having a court determine that the name change didn't have legal standing? Much less put up with the ill will that the lawsuit would generate?
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"A million dollars" in regard to law suits is just a turn of phrase Trump uses to mean "retribution of some sort".
 
TellyKNeasuss said:
Would AMBASSADOR Grenell actually risk filing such a lawsuit and risk having a court determine that the name change didn't have legal standing? Much less put up with the ill will that the lawsuit would generate?
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The outcome of the lawsuit won't depend on the importance of the name change. It will depend on the contract terms between the center and the artist. If the contract allows for withdrawal, the artist will win. If the contract does not, or not for this reason, Grenell will win.

We don't know the contract terms. They are not public, as far as I am aware.
 
Ziggurat said:
The outcome of the lawsuit won't depend on the importance of the name change. It will depend on the contract terms between the center and the artist. If the contract allows for withdrawal, the artist will win. If the contract does not, or not for this reason, Grenell will win.

We don't know the contract terms. They are not public, as far as I am aware.
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In England, the damages awarded would be on the basis of the loss incurred. How does it work in the U.S.? Is the plaintiff just allowed to name some arbitrary sum, or is reality allowed to insert itself?
 
Ziggurat said:
The outcome of the lawsuit won't depend on the importance of the name change. It will depend on the contract terms between the center and the artist. If the contract allows for withdrawal, the artist will win. If the contract does not, or not for this reason, Grenell will win.
We don't know the contract terms. They are not public, as far as I am aware.
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Whether the legality of the name change figures into the lawsuit outcome is something that I wouldn't know, but it would make AMBASSSDOR Grenell and the Kennedy Center board look pretty bad if a court were to determine that the name change was not legal, and might even generate public sympathy for the musicians.
 
TellyKNeasuss said:
So, a free concert, which by definition generates no revenue, cost the Kennedy Center a million dollarwhen it was cancelled???

Would AMBASSADOR Grenell actually risk filing such a lawsuit and risk having a court determine that the name change didn't have legal standing? Much less put up with the ill will that the lawsuit would generate?
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Concession stand sales, of coarse. I hear popcorn is a real money maker.
 
Ziggurat said:
I don't see how that issue would even come up in such a lawsuit, unless their contract has some clause related to the name. Which would be odd.
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Richard Grenell, in a letter he signed as "President, The Donald J. Trump and John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts", wrote this (with my highlighting):
Your decision to withdraw at the last moment—explicitly in response to the Center’s recent renaming , which honors President Trump’s extraordinary efforts to save this national treasure—is classic intolerance and very costly to a non-profit Arts institution.
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Inasmuch as that was the second paragraph of Grenell's letter informing Mr Redd of the lawsuit (in paragraph 7), it is safe to say Richard Grenell believes the renaming to be relevant to the lawsuit.

Ziggurat said:
You really are bad at this.
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Ziggurat said:
God damn, but you're bad at this.
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Those comments would be entirely appropriate if we were to see a wannabe comedian
  1. try to tell a joke,
  2. but then have to explain it was just a joke,
  3. and then, when nobody laughed, feel compelled to explain why the joke was funny,
  4. and then, when the joke continued to fall flat even after its hilarity had been explained, berate those who still don't think the joke was funny.
 
W.D.Clinger said:
Richard Grenell, in a letter he signed as "President, The Donald J. Trump and John F. Kennedy Memorial Center for the Performing Arts", wrote this (with my highlighting):

Inasmuch as that was the second paragraph of Grenell's letter informing Mr Redd of the lawsuit (in paragraph 7), it is safe to say Richard Grenell believes the renaming to be relevant to the lawsuit.
Your decision to withdraw at the last moment—explicitly in response to the Center’s recent renaming , which honors President Trump’s extraordinary efforts to save this national treasure—is classic intolerance and very costly to a non-profit Arts institution.
Click to expand...

The simple fact that all of the performer's correspondence and legal documents were likely with the John F Kennedy Performing Arts Center as opposed to being with President Donald J Turd Performing Arts Center makes any contractual agreements questionable. But of course it depends on the language of the documents. Adding Trump's name changes everything. An artist might even be entitled to damages.
By adding the name Trump to the Arts Center they have sullied the brand. It went from being a prestigious brand that added to the pedigree of the artist to a brand that detracted from it. The board is responsible for this regrettable incident. Not the artist.

And it is totally fine if the artist is making a political statement. He has every right to do so. And as if the board wasn't making a political statement.
 
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acbytesla said:
The simple fact that all of the performer's correspondence and legal documents were likely with the John F Kennedy Performing Arts Center as opposed to being with President Donald J Turd Performing Arts Center makes any contractual agreements questionable. But of course it depends on the language of the documents. Adding Trump's name changes everything. An artist might even be entitled to damages.
By adding the name Trump to the Arts Center they have sullied the brand. It went from being a prestigious brand that added to the pedigree of the artist to a brand that detracted from it. The board is responsible for this regrettable incident. Not the artist.

And it is totally fine if the artist is making a political statement. He has every right to do so. And as if the board wasn't making a political statement.
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Usually a change of a name in a contract is not considered a material change, a company changing its name from the "1-2-3 company ltd" to "2-3-4 company ltd" changes nothing material to the contract. However in this case there is a clear material change caused by the change of the name, it changed the nature of the venue in such a way that the performer may never have signed a contract if it was named that when they signed the contract.
 
From Grenell's letter:
Your decision to withdraw at the last moment—explicitly in response to the Center’s recent renaming , which honors President Trump’s extraordinary efforts to save this national treasure—is classic intolerance and very costly to a non-profit Arts institution.
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Do anybody know what the Kennedy Center needed to be saved from? Did Trump save it from DOGE?
 
Ziggurat said:
Why would that be relevant to the contract terms? I doubt it would be, though again, the contract terms aren’t public.

If this guy broke the contract, he may be on the hook for monetary damages (again, depending on the terms of the contract). That wouldn’t necessarily mean he’s on the hook for a million, though. Trial could find him liable but for a smaller amount.
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It's more than just a change of name, though. There's a fairly convincing argument that the change was actually illegal, and it's pretty transparently certain that the purpose of firing the board of directors and hiring a bunch of MAGA supporters, followed by that change of name, was to change the institution itself, and specifically to alter what it represents, how it operates, and whom it serves. It might well be argued that such an illegal takeover of the institution and dismissal of its founding charter could annul any contract made with its predecessor.

It seems endemic for right wing apologists to take every instance of anything as unique and unrelated to anything else. You might manage to argue that a mere change of the name on the building doesn't do anything, but along with impugning your own intelligence for pretending it does not stand for much more, you'd run the risk of denying any reason for doing it.
 
bruto said:
It's more than just a change of name, though. There's a fairly convincing argument that the change was actually illegal
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Even supposing it was an illegal name change, why would that allow Redd to break his contract? Unless the contract somehow makes reference to such conditions (which I find unlikely), I don't see how the name change has any effect at all on the contract or Redd's obligations under that contract even if the name change is illegal.
bruto said:
It seems endemic for right wing apologists to take every instance of anything as unique and unrelated to anything else.
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Whether the name change is related to anything else isn't a legally relevant question here. The legal question is, did Redd violate the terms of the contract, and if so, how much is he on the hook for? I have zero insight into that latter question, but the former question I can make some educated guesses on. Contracts often stipulate terms under which they can be cancelled unilaterally without penalty. Now, is it possible that the name change triggered such a term? That seems unlikely (why would anyone bother writing such a contingency into the contract? Was Redd expecting such a possibility?), and you aren't even arguing that it did. Is it possible that Redd was able to cancel without penalty due to some terms of the contract unrelated to the name change? That actually seems more likely than the name change triggering something, though still not a given. We cannot know either way for certain without seeing the contract. But unless the contract allowed for Redd to cancel without penalty, then he's on the hook for something, even if not a million. That's the nature of contracts.
bruto said:
You might manage to argue that a mere change of the name on the building doesn't do anything
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It doesn't matter if the name change does something. What matters is if the name change does anything to the contract. And you haven't provided any reason to think it would. Nobody has.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why would that be relevant to the contract terms? I doubt it would be, though again, the contract terms aren’t public.

If this guy broke the contract, he may be on the hook for monetary damages (again, depending on the terms of the contract). That wouldn’t necessarily mean he’s on the hook for a million, though. Trial could find him liable but for a smaller amount.
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Just in case you missed it Zig.
The simple fact that all of the performer's correspondence and legal documents were likely with the John F Kennedy Performing Arts Center as opposed to being with President Donald J Turd Performing Arts Center makes any contractual agreements questionable. But of course, you're right it depends on the language of the documents.

Adding Trump's name changes everything. The artist, not the Center might even be entitled to damages.
By adding the name Trump to the Arts Center they have sullied the brand. It went from being a prestigious brand that added to the pedigree of the artist to a brand that detracted from it. It's like thinking the venue is Tiffany's and instead in reality finding out after the fact that no, it wasn't Tiffany's. It was Walmart. I'm sure you can appreciate someone wanting to be associated with JFK and not wanting to be associated with Trump.

The board is responsible for this regrettable incident. Not the artist.

And it is totally fine if the artist is making a political statement. He has every right to do so. And as if the board wasn't making a political statement when they changed the name.
 
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Ziggurat said:
Even supposing it was an illegal name change, why would that allow Redd to break his contract? Unless the contract somehow makes reference to such conditions (which I find unlikely), I don't see how the name change has any effect at all on the contract or Redd's obligations under that contract even if the name change is illegal.
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Because, the artist has no desire to be associated with Trump. Doh! This IS a material difference. And if anything the board is responsible for the problem. Not the artist. They changed the conditions of the contract unbeknownst to the artist.

Ziggurat said:
Whether the name change is related to anything else isn't a legally relevant question here. The legal question is, did Redd violate the terms of the contract, and if so, how much is he on the hook for? I have zero insight into that latter question, but the former question I can make some educated guesses on. Contracts often stipulate terms under which they can be cancelled unilaterally without penalty. Now, is it possible that the name change triggered such a term? That seems unlikely (why would anyone bother writing such a contingency into the contract? Was Redd expecting such a possibility?), and you aren't even arguing that it did. Is it possible that Redd was able to cancel without penalty due to some terms of the contract unrelated to the name change? That actually seems more likely than the name change triggering something, though still not a given. We cannot know either way for certain without seeing the contract. But unless the contract allowed for Redd to cancel without penalty, then he's on the hook for something, even if not a million. That's the nature of contracts.

It doesn't matter if the name change does something. What matters is if the name change does anything to the contract. And you haven't provided any reason to think it would. Nobody has.
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It DOES! The artist was under the impression his contract was with something prestigious. Not with some low life POS. If he signed a contract with Donald J Trump Performing Art Center, he would have chosen to have such an association and the contract would be enforceable. By changing the name, you're demanding he be associated with someone he doesn't want to be associated with.
 
Ziggurat said:
What you desire is rarely ever a material part of a contract.
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You're right. It isn't. The name of the venue is almost never material. The difference between 123 Arena and 321 Arena is meaningless.

But it is absurd to think this is meaningless. I see it as an honor to me to be associated with JFK. And I don't want anything to do with honoring Trump.

Are you saying I don't have such a right? That this isn't a reasonable consideration?
 
acbytesla said:
Just in case you missed it Zig.
The simple fact that all of the performer's correspondence and legal documents were likely with the John F Kennedy Performing Arts Center as opposed to being with President Donald J Turd Performing Arts Center makes any contractual agreements questionable.
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Not really. Entities change their names all the time, doing so does not in general nullify or even modify contracts. Imagine what would happen if companies could void contracts by simply changing their name.
acbytesla said:
Adding Trump's name changes everything.
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It probably doesn't change anything about the contract.
acbytesla said:
I'm sure you can appreciate someone wanting to be associated with JFK and not wanting to be associated with Trump.
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I can, but you don't get to unilaterally bail from contracts just because what you want changes.
acbytesla said:
And it is totally fine if the artist is making a political statement. He has every right to do so.
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Quite so. But his right to make a political statement doesn't void his contract obligations. And that obligation cuts both ways. If Redd had made anti-Trump public statements, the board would not be entitled to violate the contract by cancelling his performance and not paying him either (unless the contract permitted such cancellations). So don't mistake my position as saying it's OK to punish political expression. My position isn't about political expression. It's about contract law and contract obligations.

Unless the terms of the contract permitted Redd to cancel his appearance, then he's in breach and likely owes something (though again, maybe not $1 million).
 
Ziggurat said:
What you desire is rarely ever a material part of a contract.
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It's not what I desire, it is the desires of the person who agrees to a contract. They agree to the terms of the contract. If they merely changed the name on the paperwork, that would be one thing. But they are changing the name of the venue itself. A very public difference.
 
Ziggurat said:
Not really. Entities change their names all the time, doing so does not in general nullify or even modify contracts. Imagine what would happen if companies could void contracts by simply changing their name.
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Actually, not all that much. Great. Why not? A party shouldn't be able to void a contract if they change the name, but they should have every right to if the other party does.
Ziggurat said:
It probably doesn't change anything about the contract.
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Of course it does. It is a material difference in the contract.
Ziggurat said:
I can, but you don't get to unilaterally bail from contracts just because what you want changes.
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You're right. You shouldn't. But it is the board that made changes in the contract.
Ziggurat said:
Quite so. But his right to make a political statement doesn't void his contract obligations. And that obligation cuts both ways. If Redd had made anti-Trump public statements, the board would not be entitled to violate the contract by cancelling his performance and not paying him either (unless the contract permitted such cancellations). So don't mistake my position as saying it's OK to punish political expression. My position isn't about political expression. It's about contract law and contract obligations.
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Of course it is. You think it is fine for the board to make a political statement. But the artist should be prevented from making one.
Ziggurat said:
Unless the terms of the contract permitted Redd to cancel his appearance, then he's in breach and likely owes something (though again, maybe not $1 million).
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His contract wasn't with the Donald J Trump Performing Center. They are the ones changing the terms without the artist's assent.
 
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I think proof of the materiality of the name change will be seen in the upcoming year. This won't be the only artist who will choose not to perform there. I'm sure I could probably present affidavit after affidavit of artists who have performed at the JFK Performing Arts Center that today wouldn't perform there.
 
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acbytesla said:
It's not what I desire, it is the desires of the person who agrees to a contract.
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The desires of the person who agrees to the contract don't matter either. Only the terms of the contract matter.
acbytesla said:
They agree to the terms of the contract.
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Indeed, Redd did. So if the contract doesn't allow him to unilaterally bail, then he's in breach.
acbytesla said:
If they merely changed the name on the paperwork, that would be one thing. But they are changing the name of the venue itself. A very public difference.
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That doesn't matter.
 
acbytesla said:
I think proof of the materiality of the name change will be seen in the upcoming year.
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The name change is only material if the terms of the contract make it material. Which is rather unlikely.
acbytesla said:
This won't be the only artist who will choose not to perform there.
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Artists are free to not sign contracts because of the name change (or for any other reason). But even if no artists ever sign a contract there again, tat does Redd no good, since he already signed a contract.
acbytesla said:
I'm sure I could probably present affidavit after affidavit of artists who have performed at the JFK Performing Arts Center that today wouldn't perform there.
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Completely irrelevant to Redd's contractual obligations.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Probably that's a question for a court case to answer. Appearance and PR are critical factors to performing arts, which applies to both sides in this particular contest.
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Neither is critical to contract obligations.
 
Ziggurat said:
The name change is only material if the terms of the contract make it material. Which is rather unlikely
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It is material because the agreement was with a party he wanted to be associated with to a party he didn't.
Ziggurat said:
Artists are free to not sign contracts because of the name change (or for any other reason). But even if no artists ever sign a contract there again, tat does Redd no good, since he already signed a contract.
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Total nonsense. He signed a contract with a specific party, Not just any party.
Ziggurat said:
Completely irrelevant to Redd's contractual obligations.
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But it is totally relevant to the Performing Arts Center's contractual obligations with the artist. They are the one's breaking the terms of the contract.
 
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