Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)

[TurkeysGhost]

But on the other hand, we're told that if you don't use someone's preferred pronouns they might well kill themselves.

The idea that hostility causes mental distress is not limited to trans people and not really that hard to comprehend.

 

[d4m10n]

The idea that hostility causes mental distress is not limited to trans people and not really that hard to comprehend.

Calling a female like G-Flip "she" isn't exactly the level of hostility which leads to suicidal ideation in mentally healthy human beings.

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[Darat]

Which raises the question of whether transgender identity is a mental health issue or not.

On the one hand, we're assured it isn't. That no diagnosis is necessary. That it's transphobic to suggest otherwise. That wanting to cross sex segregation boundaries is perfectly normal and healthy and that all you have to do is say you want to.

But on the other hand, we're told that if you don't use someone's preferred pronouns they might well kill themselves.

What a terrible mishmash of straw, so much so it's really nothing but a parody of itself.

We know there are some people that would consider themselves trans that fall under a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. We know that some people deny this, we know some people don't deny this.

We know there are some people that would consider themselves trans that don't fall under a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. We know that some people deny this, we know some people don't deny this.

We know some people believe that not using a trans person's chosen gender pronouns causes some trans people harm/unhappiness/upset. We know that some people deny this.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"The simplest definition of harm in healthcare is a negative effect, whether or not it is evident to the patient."

Medically unnecessary surgical procedures are "harm" by definition. A tubal ligation is a negative effect - removing a woman's ability to conceive. Most doctors I know would absolutely require their patient to undergo some sort of psychological evaluation prior to proceeding with the surgery. This is a bell that cannot be un-ringed.

It permanently eliminates fertility.

Oh **** all of that. That's the most misogynist nonsense I've ever heard on this board.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Calling a female like G-Flip "she" isn't exactly the level of hostility which leads to suicidal ideation in mentally healthy human beings.

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I'm glad you're the final arbiter of what kind of hostile and bullying remarks qualify.

Kinda seems like a running theme of these kinds of discussion is that those not experiencing the hostility always downplay the impacts, be it their homophobic, racist, sexist, transphobic, etc remarks.

 

[Ziggurat]

Oh **** all of that. That's the most misogynist nonsense I've ever heard on this board.

Oh **** your accusation. Fertility is hardly a female-only property. Permanently removing it for males OR females is a big deal, and young people of both sexes often don't appreciate what its permanent loss means for the rest of their lives. There's nothing misogynist about anything I said.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Oh **** all of that. That's the most misogynist nonsense I've ever heard on this board.

The Venn Diagram of vicious transphobes and outright misogynists has heavy overlap, this is not surprising at all.

 

[lobosrul5]

Oh **** your accusation. Fertility is hardly a female-only property. Permanently removing it for males OR females is a big deal, and young people of both sexes often don't appreciate what its permanent loss means for the rest of their lives. There's nothing misogynist about anything I said.

Yeah my friend got a vasectomy in his late 20's. He had to do some "doctor shopping" to find one willing.

Although EC's doctor refusing to perform surgery when she is FORTY NINE is quite bizarre.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Oh **** your accusation. Fertility is hardly a female-only property. Permanently removing it for males OR females is a big deal, and young people of both sexes often don't appreciate what its permanent loss means for the rest of their lives. There's nothing misogynist about anything I said.

There's a billboard on my drive to work advertising vasectomies for 499.99.

I've never heard one man, one ******* man ever, say they got any pushback from a doctor for getting a vascectomy and I know as a metaphysical fact that you don't think vasectomies are against the Hippocratic Oath.

 

[Ziggurat]

The Venn Diagram of vicious transphobes and outright misogynists has heavy overlap, this is not surprising at all.

When you can't win an argument, just start insulting the other side.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm glad you're the final arbiter of what kind of hostile and bullying remarks qualify.

Everyone has to be the arbiter of which words they choose to use, though others will doubtless try to influence them to use the words they would prefer.

Kinda seems like a running theme of these kinds of discussion is that those not experiencing the hostility always downplay the impacts, be it their homophobic, racist, sexist, transphobic, etc remarks.

I assume there is some evidence that failing to use non-binary pronouns is demonstrably grounded in hostility and results in serious impact, but so far that evidence is firewalled or otherwise elusive.

 

[Ziggurat]

There's a billboard on my drive to work advertising vasectomies for 499.99.

I've never heard one man, one ******* man ever, say they got any pushback from a doctor for getting a vascectomy and I know as a metaphysical fact that you don't think vasectomies are against the Hippocratic Oath.

First, the fact that YOU haven't heard about a man getting pushback on vasectomies doesn't mean that no man has. Plenty have, it's very much a thing. Second, I made no prior claim about what was or wasn't against the Hippocratic oath. The question was what harm was done. And yes, permanent loss of fertility for men AND women is often harm.

And lastly, I never said that tubal ligation was a violation of the Hippocratic oath. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. And guess what? The same is true for vasectomies. You think you've caught me in some sort of hypocrisy, but it's an entirely imagined one, which you need to sustain your similarly imagined accusation of misogyny. Because you can no longer argue on merits, you have to ad hominem. You cannot even conceive of disagreement in good faith.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

When you can't win an argument, just start insulting the other side.

I, for one, encourage the anti-trans activists to focus on how nature never makes a mistake and doctors should deny patients the care they desire based on their own assessment on the value of fertility or whatever. A winning message sure to convince the masses.

 

[Ziggurat]

I, for one, encourage the anti-trans activists to focus on how nature never makes a mistake

Nature doesn't have intent, so "mistake" is meaningless. None of this has anything to do with disorders of sexual development, so developmental anomalies are irrelevant. We're left with gender dysphoria, which is a mental illness that nobody here denies exists and deserves treatment.

and doctors should deny patients the care they desire based on their own assessment on the value of fertility or whatever.

I will admit, straw men is a big step up from insults, but still wrong. Nobody is saying that doctors should deny care to adults, though far more caution is warranted in making sure it's what patients really want. That's not peculiar to trans care in any way, shape, or form.

The issue with children is that they aren't capable of informed consent about things they cannot even understand, for benefits that have never been demonstrated and at costs we don't yet know and which those children are being lied to about.

A winning message sure to convince the masses.

Let's sterilize children having an identity crisis. That's a far more appealing message for the masses, apparently.

 

[Trausti]

I, for one, encourage the anti-trans activists to focus on how nature never makes a mistake and doctors should deny patients the care they desire based on their own assessment on the value of fertility or whatever. A winning message sure to convince the masses.

Unless we're planning on enslaving doctors, no medical profession should be forced to perform a procedure or prescribe medication if they feel the treatment would be harmful / unethical.

 

[JoeMorgue]

When you can't win an argument, just start insulting the other side.

This is the mythology of the "civil debate" and denying the idea that opinions can ever be insulting, only the way they are worded.

 

[theprestige]

Why shouldn't women have agency over their own reproductive system?

Why should women have agency over a doctor's own practice of medicine, and dictate to him what treatments he may and may not consider ethical?

I mean, it's a really weird question to be asking. We all understand that not every treatment someone could ask for will be healthy or ethical in every case. We all understand that in general, doctors need to be able to exercise their own ethical judgement when it comes to treating prospective patients.

The issue is not whether a woman should be able to command a hysterectomy whenever she wants, overriding her physician's misgivings if necessary. The issue is why we find ourselves now in a society where women often find it more difficult to get hysterectomy for non-trans reasons than for trans reasons.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I will admit, straw men is a big step up from insults, but still wrong. Nobody is saying that doctors should deny care to adults, though far more caution is warranted in making sure it's what patients really want. That's not peculiar to trans care in any way, shape, or form.

Who is "nobody" in this context? In this thread or more broadly?

Because generally speaking, there's lots of people who think that adults should not get the care they want, no matter how carefully they consider the issue. Hell, many of them are using political power to make such care for adults illegal.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why should women have agency over a doctor's own practice of medicine, and dictate to him what treatments he may and may not consider ethical?

I mean, it's a really weird question to be asking. We all understand that not every treatment someone could ask for will be healthy or ethical in every case. We all understand that in general, doctors need to be able to exercise their own ethical judgement when it comes to treating prospective patients.

The issue is not whether a woman should be able to command a hysterectomy whenever she wants, overriding her physician's misgivings if necessary. The issue is why we find ourselves now in a society where women often find it more difficult to get hysterectomy for non-trans reasons than for trans reasons.

"And why shouldn't a pharmacist just be able to decide the birth control is only for whores?"

 

[lobosrul5]

Unless we're planning on enslaving doctors, no medical profession should be forced to perform a procedure or prescribe medication if they feel the treatment would be harmful / unethical.

Its up to us as a society to decide what treatments a doctor can and cannot refuse and any civil or criminal penalties they should face for refusal. Full stop. If anyone doesn't like the laws in the USA in relation to practicing medicine they have the freedom to not practice medicine within the USA.

Hypothetical: a pregnant woman goes into the ER with a serious medical issue and the on-call physician has two choices. 1) perform an abortion and the woman lives with a high degree of certainty, or 2) not perform an abortion and there's a 50/50 chance the woman lives. He refuses her option 1 because of ethical concerns and she dies. IMO he can serve a nice 10 year sentence for manslaughter.

ETA: geez you know this isn't even all that different from any other industry where life and death situations occur. If you own a construction co and someone dies because you willfully ignored OSHA regs or such, guess what, you can go to jail.