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Transporter Philosophy

That person is not "somebody else" -- the murderer no longer exists. There is, however, a person who believes he is the murderer (if the duplicate has the same memories as the original and is conscious of the original's past and his self existence) -- but he didn't commit the murder. How could he? -- as jmercer pointed out, he didn't even exist at the time the crime was committed. But you may take some comfort in that I believe the actual murderer is dead.

I picture the brain as a kind of computerized vaporizer, which emits a very unique kind of gas. That gas cloud is the 'me', the consciousness. If someone shuts down the vaporizer, the cloud dissipates, and I disappear. When it is turned on again, I come back. If someone destroyed it I would dissappear. If they rebuilt an exact copy of it I would be back again. If they built two copies, there would be two me's (up until the environmental effects on the machine altered the cloud's composition).

If I killed someone and jumped in the transporter, my brain would die and the 'me-ness' would disappear. When the transporter then reassembled by brain the same 'me-ness' would reappear, only being caused by a different brain.

Incidentally, this is why I plan to create a trust to have myself cloned. I really do think it's like living forever, albiet as an amnesiac.
 
... Would others have the same concerns ?

Of course these concerns would have to be applied before stepping into the transporter ... but given that no one would ever be able to tell the difference, and there would be no test that anyone could ever use to tell that the copy of me would be any different than I would have been, perhaps not. But then, if someone dear thought as I did, I doubt I would feel right having them go through the rest of their life feeling that it wasn't really me; and please don't think that not ever telling them would work, as these things always seem to have a way of being found out.

Then again, feeling the way I do, I don't think I'd step into one to begin with.
 
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Interesting topic

My views:

Assume a copy of me were made and transported to another location.

To external parties the copy would still be the same me.

If the original copy (myself) was to be deleted (killed) I would be concerned even though another copy of myself existed.

Would others have the same concerns ?

If you make a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa and the original was destroyed, would it make a difference to art collectors? I'm pretty darned sure the answer is "yes".

I suspect that family and loved ones would view the death of the original in the same light. :)
 
If you make a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa and the original was destroyed, would it make a difference to art collectors? I'm pretty darned sure the answer is "yes".

I suspect that family and loved ones would view the death of the original in the same light. :)


Who cares about family and loved ones? :D

What I mean is, this guy is asking the same question as me. I follow all the logic here. From the outside, there's no reason to be concerned.

But I am, because of that VERY question. Don't think from the perspective of any outsiders. Lock them out of the equation. Let's change it so that the only people that exist are the person and the clones. An outside observer to this situation is impossible. In order to comment on it, you must speak from the perspective of one of them, so just pick one.

So, clone yourself. Now, shoot yourself. It's fine because that other guy is you. Why do you hesitate? Is it because instinct is overriding reason? If that's the case, what manner of reasoning makes it okay to shoot yourself?

I don't care if I have someone exactly the same as me so much as I care if I am existant. If my own perspective is existence and then nothing, then I don't care how many people can't tell the difference between me and me, I really don't care about anything any more. The one person that is most important to me is ME in this question. Will I, that is the original person, be able to tell or will I be obliterated? A single clone is easy enough for me to deal with reasonably. It's when you get those multiple copies that exist simultaneously that I get confused. And, there is one physical difference between these clones. Their location.
 
So, clone yourself. Now, shoot yourself. It's fine because that other guy is you. Why do you hesitate? Is it because instinct is overriding reason? If that's the case, what manner of reasoning makes it okay to shoot yourself?

Except, and this has been pointed out lots of times before, that's not what anyone thinks. By that point, he and you aren't identical in a very meaningful way, as it's obvious one of you might be shot soon, and besides, you obviously aren't that person who you're looking at across the room.

What you both have are equally valid claims to being the person that was duplicated, and as materialists say "you both are the person that was duplicated". Obviously after the duplication you've become slightly different. Both of you are different from the pre-duplicate, just like we are slightly different from who we were five minutes ago. There is no enduring self in materialism that can preferentially attach itself to a particular group of molecules.

This seems a bit odd, but what would be the point of reason if we only came to conclusions that our gut instinct agreed with?
 
Dark Jaguar said:
So, clone yourself. Now, shoot yourself. It's fine because that other guy is you. Why do you hesitate? Is it because instinct is overriding reason? If that's the case, what manner of reasoning makes it okay to shoot yourself?

Th problem is that it isn't exactly the same. If you copy a file from your hard drive to a cd, you can then erase the file from your hard drive. But if you have an error copying or continue to edit the file on the computer after copying it, hen you don't have the same file anymore.

If I was to undergo a process of copying my mind to another body in which I would be destroyed in the process, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. The consciousness that emerges from the copy would be me, just as the one destroyed was. It would just be waking up in a different brain. (I LIKE that phrase!)

But, if I was left alive afterwards, now my consciousness is divergent. It is no longer identical to the copy. Now it wouldn't be me, but a different version of me. Now if I die, there is no me anymore anywhere. The 'me' is dead.
 
That person is not "somebody else" -- the murderer no longer exists. There is, however, a person who believes he is the murderer (if the duplicate has the same memories as the original and is conscious of the original's past and his self existence) -- but he didn't commit the murder. How could he? -- as jmercer pointed out, he didn't even exist at the time the crime was committed. But you may take some comfort in that I believe the actual murderer is dead.

I guess you then enter the realm of "why do we prosecute people for committing crimes?" personally, I consider the purpose to be stopping them from doing the same thing again. If you have a person who believes they just committed murder, and got away scott free, that is hardly going to incline them towards not repeating the crime.

Thus, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
 
Who cares about family and loved ones? :D

What I mean is, this guy is asking the same question as me. I follow all the logic here. From the outside, there's no reason to be concerned.

But I am, because of that VERY question. Don't think from the perspective of any outsiders. Lock them out of the equation. Let's change it so that the only people that exist are the person and the clones. An outside observer to this situation is impossible. In order to comment on it, you must speak from the perspective of one of them, so just pick one.

So, clone yourself. Now, shoot yourself. It's fine because that other guy is you. Why do you hesitate? Is it because instinct is overriding reason? If that's the case, what manner of reasoning makes it okay to shoot yourself?

I don't care if I have someone exactly the same as me so much as I care if I am existant. If my own perspective is existence and then nothing, then I don't care how many people can't tell the difference between me and me, I really don't care about anything any more. The one person that is most important to me is ME in this question. Will I, that is the original person, be able to tell or will I be obliterated? A single clone is easy enough for me to deal with reasonably. It's when you get those multiple copies that exist simultaneously that I get confused. And, there is one physical difference between these clones. Their location.

Good point, although I still think the external viewpoint has validity.

One of the problems I've been having with this "thought experiment" overall is the "instantaneous" option. Aside from it being nonsensical (which brings into question the entire outcome of the TE), it makes the discussion far too simplistic and reductionist.

I agree with your post; but I'd like to suggest one simple modification. Instead of shooting yourself - which is tantamount to a rather painless and instantaneous death, except for the anguish leading up to pulling the trigger - let's change the parameters.

Pick a long, drawn-out and painful voluntary death. Something that takes days, weeks, months - it doesn't matter, there are plenty to choose from. As you eloquently put it, "It's fine because that other guy is you. Why do you hesitate?"

Added to your fine ethical and personal question of "If that's the case, what manner of reasoning makes it okay to shoot yourself?", the stakes have increased. Things are no longer relatively painless, either for you or the people around you. It becomes a long drawn-out affair that you have to witness first-hand, including the grief of your family and loved ones. (Now you may find yourself caring - albeit a bit late - about what you have chosen to do regarding the outside people. ;)) And unless you're sociopathic... your replicant is going to suffer while watching you die as well.

To further bring out the point I think you were trying to make... It's because the "other guy" is NOT "you" - only "you" are "you", and your death is a personal, individual thing. You and your replicant are two independent individuals, even if for a nanosecond you were both physically identical at one point.

That was an very well-written and well-thought-out post... and not just because I agree with it, either. :)
 
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Douglas Hofstadter talks about this very thing in The Mind's I. In the introduction, he asks whether you'd be wiling to travel to Mars if the only way to return was via a teleporter. Then he changed teh teleporter so that it was actually a copier, and you remain on Mars, but a copy of you, complete with personality and memories, gets to live on back on Earth.

The questions of how do you feel about it is one thing, but the other perspective is what the law thinks of it.

If you're duplicated, which one of you gets to keep your stuff? What if the original is the one who has sacrificed himself in order to further mankind's knowledge of the Solar System?

Personally, I'm just very, very glad that teleporters do not actually exist, and are unlikely to ever exist. I have yet to see any SF show or books truly weaponising teleporters. The more I think about the possibilities, the more they frighten me.

Take the Star Trek universe. Photon torpedoes weaken shields, but are pretty slow moving and inaccurate. Why not teleport them in quick succession to a point right at the edge of a ship's shields? As soon as they blow a hole in the shields, teleport a final torpedo directly into the antimatter containment system. You could wipe out any ship in no time. For that matter, why bother with photon torpedoes at all? Why not simply teleport some matter and some anti-matter direct to the location you want destroyed?

Teleporters transform the face of warfare. No one's done them justice, yet.
 
I guess you then enter the realm of "why do we prosecute people for committing crimes?" personally, I consider the purpose to be stopping them from doing the same thing again. If you have a person who believes they just committed murder, and got away scott free, that is hardly going to incline them towards not repeating the crime.

Thus, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

Well, let's look at an individual that apart from most everything else, actually believes he assassinated President Lincoln. Of course there's no rational explanation to his conclusion, he poses no threat to anyone else and apart from that you would never suspect him of believing such. Do we prosecute him as a murderer? He believes this as much (as much as can be tested with our transporter clone) as our clone believes he murdered whoever in our thought scenario.
 
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Well, let's look at an individual that apart from most everything else, actually believes he assassinated President Lincoln. Of course there's no rational explanation to his conclusion, he poses no threat to anyone else and apart from that you would never suspect him of believing such. Do we prosecute him as a murderer? He believes this as much (as much as can be tested with our transporter clone) as our clone believes he murdered whoever in our thought scenario.

THe bolded part is where we would disagree. If this is true for the copy, then this was also true for the original, thus the original assassin should not be charged either (they are copies, identical mentalities at least up to the point of duplication).

It's not about belief, it's about consistent goals for the justice system.

If the "original" needed to be put in prison to protect society, well, the copy or clone has the exact smae outlook, and the exact same argument applies. If the original needed to be incarcerated as a deterrent, then only the outside argument for the transporter applies, and the clone/duplicate/whatever would still need to be incarceratecd. If the original needed to be rehabilitated, then the same mindssets and pre-dispositions that needed correction in the original also need correction in the duplicate.

By your argument, our entire justice system is simply based on accidental coincidence. There is no goal to incarceration, and there should be no punishment difference between accidental death and intentional murder.

jmercer:

The reason to assume instantaneous transmission is precisely to highlight where we draw the line on self, identity, consciousness, etc. Think of it as removing variables in order to highlight the variables one wishes to examine :)

And Dilb elucidated my viewpoint pretty well. Both yourself and the duplicate have equal claim to being "you". No one is arguing that they are the same consciousness or will remian exactly identical after duplication, but simply that each is just as valid a version of you as the other.

Likewise with the transporter, not including duplication. There's no more reason to say the reconstituted person isn't you than there is to say that a waterfall is different because it stopped during a drought and then restarted. Or to say a river is not the same because it was dammed, then undammed. The consciousness is a process.

And again, I go back to the gradualist examples, and partial copies, to highlight the problems with using continuity as a guide. What if the transporter only removes the brain and rematerializes it back in the same body? It's been destroyed and recreated, is it the same person? The physical argument says yes, simple answer, The coninuity argument has no clear answer, and would seem to require additional explanation and categorization (how much of you is in body versus brain, is instantaneous destrcution/reintegration enough to break continuity, etc). Likewise, what if half the brain and body were removed (split right down the middle) and recreated by the transporter, with the other half left intact?

The continuity model does not adequately address all situations as is, and requires additional qualifications to answer these questions. Combine this with the inability to distinguish between physically identical copies (in any way except by known history...and even this cannot be distinguished without a continuous chain of observsation) and the conclusion is that the copies are both identical to the original.

The Mona Lisa example is a good one, IMO. As soon as the copy is made, it could be authenticated as the original. Which the original would be, as well. Pre-copying, there were identical. Only post-copy is there any detectable difference at all, and that's only in location. Yes, people would want the original, but the only way to distinguish between the original and the copy would necessarily be based on post-duplication events that affected each...NOTHING that occurred pre-duplication could be used to distinguish between the two. Which is, essentially, the point.
 
THe bolded part is where we would disagree. If this is true for the copy, then this was also true for the original, thus the original assassin should not be charged either (they are copies, identical mentalities at least up to the point of duplication).

Absolutely no ... as I see it. The actual assassin did the crime and should be punished (unless of course he somehow dies between the crime and the incarceration). I believe the transporter does indeed kill him and then makes a copy -- an exact duplicate, if you will. The duplicate merely believes he did it as much as the original -- he also believes he existed as much as the original did pre-teleportation. If the person who believes he killed Lincoln is not prosecuted for killing Lincoln, then the person who believes he killed our person in the scenario is just as guilty. He too can be medically treated to help him realize he didn't actually do it -- just as the person who believes he killed Lincoln could (or perhaps should).

Also, it has nothing to do with posing a future threat -- it's all about the committed crime.

It's not about belief, it's about consistent goals for the justice system.

The actual murderer is dead -- what could be more just?

If the "original" needed to be put in prison to protect society, well, the copy or clone has the exact same outlook, and the exact same argument applies. If the original needed to be incarcerated as a deterrent, then only the outside argument for the transporter applies, and the clone/duplicate/whatever would still need to be incarcerated. If the original needed to be rehabilitated, then the same mindsets and pre-dispositions that needed correction in the original also need correction in the duplicate.

It's all about justice ... take a life, lose your life. Believe mistakenly you killed a life, and get treatment.

By your argument, our entire justice system is simply based on accidental coincidence. There is no goal to incarceration, and there should be no punishment difference between accidental death and intentional murder.

This does in no way follow.
 
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My $0.02.

Using a strict Star-Trek style transporter, there is no copy made. I've watched an embarrassing amount of Star Trek and I can state quite confidently that it is the matter that is being transported and not just a copy being made on the other end. When both sides of the transport are shown, people de-materialize first and re-materialize at the destination. They also use terms like "matter stream" and the entire theory of transport operation is based on turning matter to energy and then back into matter. This is also the best case scenario for a transporter mechanism working. The idea of making a copy and destroying the original as a means of transporting a person is likely not going to be very popular for reasons that have been discussed already.

Whether consciousness is a result of the brain's activity or an entity unto itself isn't important. If consciousness isn't transferred with the body then it will be very obvious to everyone. If it is then nobody, including the person being transported, will know if it isn't the same person. If I step on to the pad and it isn't "me" that comes out the other side, the being at the other end will be fully convinced it is "me" and "me" won't be around to know otherwise.

The issue of "how perfect is a perfect copy" is also moot. Our bodies and minds change constantly from one instant to the next. There will be some level of "identical" that isn't "completely identical" yet still acceptable where nobody, including the person being transported, will know the difference. If I walk across the room the particles in my body have all changed position. I have new memories that didn't exist before. I am slightly older. From the standpoint of "completely identical", I am clearly not. Yet few would argue I wasn't the same person. Am I the same person at the end of this sentence as I was when I started typing it? Over the course of a year, people change far more without being transported and there is little argument about whether or not they are the "same person". Some level of difference is allowed in order for "the same person" to have any meaning, transporter or no. That acceptable level of difference is going to be, by reason of sheer practicality, whether or not anyone can tell the difference. How that difference can be measured will be determined by the technology available.

The only fear I can see is if the conciousness that entered the transporter continues to exist but does not inhabit the body that was transported. In order for this to be an issue, the being at the other end must have a consciousness identical enough to the original in order for the transporter to be seen as working, but not the original consciousness which is now floating around somewhere, meaning that "me" has been copied while the rest of my body is actually transported. I don't see how that could be the case.
 
Absolutely no ... as I see it. The actual assassin did the crime and should be punished (unless of course he somehow dies between the crime and the incarceration). I believe the transporter does indeed kill him and then makes a copy -- an exact duplicate, if you will. The duplicate merely believes he did it as much as the original -- he also believes he existed as much as the original did pre-teleportation. If the person who believes he killed Lincoln is not prosecuted for killing Lincoln, then the person who believes he killed our person in the scenario is just as guilty. He too can be medically treated to help him realize he didn't actually do it -- just as the person who believes he killed Lincoln could (or perhaps should).

Then the death of the original for the murder is a senseless act. IT serves no logical or useful purpose. IF the copy can recieve treatment to be a normal, productive member of society, the same is true for the original, assuming he is not dead. So why should he be killed or punished, yet the copy is not?

Also, it has nothing to do with posing a future threat -- it's all about the committed crime.

So eye for an eye? Is that the theory? To what purpose? WHy is it this way? What logical reason is there for this...what greater purpose does it server to the victims of crime and/or their family, to the criminal, or to society as a whole?

The actual murderer is dead -- what could be more just?

Reforming a murderer into a productive and adjusted member of society, for one, something you imply is actually possible above.

It's all about justice ... take a life, lose your life. Believe mistakenly you killed a life, and get treatment.

And again, what is the reasoning behind this? If the copy can be treated, so can the original. So what purpose for the justice system to begin with?

This does in no way follow.

I believe it does. You have admitted that the idea of justice has no rational, pratical, or useful purpose and is, if anything, detrimental to society as a whole. IT's entirely based on accident. The punishment is not based on the mentality, personality, or self of the person committing the act; his thinking bears no relevence to the crime. So accidental death versus intentional shouldn't matter, either, because it isn't the mind of the person, just the physical act. I'm just not seeing any rational basis for this idea of justice. I'm not seeing the reasoning, logically, why a copy should be treated differently.
 
The continuity model does not adequately address all situations as is, and requires additional qualifications to answer these questions. Combine this with the inability to distinguish between physically identical copies (in any way except by known history...and even this cannot be distinguished without a continuous chain of observsation) and the conclusion is that the copies are both identical to the original.

The Mona Lisa example is a good one, IMO. As soon as the copy is made, it could be authenticated as the original. Which the original would be, as well. Pre-copying, there were identical. Only post-copy is there any detectable difference at all, and that's only in location. Yes, people would want the original, but the only way to distinguish between the original and the copy would necessarily be based on post-duplication events that affected each...NOTHING that occurred pre-duplication could be used to distinguish between the two. Which is, essentially, the point.

Yes and no. Once it became public that both copies were authenticated (ignoring chain of custody evidence), then the art world would probably cite the value of both as having been destroyed by the fact that the provenence of the original was no longer knowable.

Ultimately, it's a moral and ethical dilemma when applied to humans; however, it would be much more immediate to the original who would know (based on location) that s/he was the original.
 
Yes and no. Once it became public that both copies were authenticated (ignoring chain of custody evidence), then the art world would probably cite the value of both as having been destroyed by the fact that the provenence of the original was no longer knowable.

Ultimately, it's a moral and ethical dilemma when applied to humans; however, it would be much more immediate to the original who would know (based on location) that s/he was the original.

To a degree. BUt again, the main thrust of my point, the only differences detectable would be those post-duplication. Any test based on any property, incident, characteristic, experience, or whatever pre-duplication would be unable to differentiate between the two. The differences between them are all post-duplication...both legitimately represent the original pre-duplication. Which is my stance :) The only distinguishing features are situational and/or hsitorical, nothing in the inherit properties or characteristics of each. I'm arguing, essentially, that two carbon atoms with identical properties are identical, even if they become different in the future. I see no reason to treat us as "special". A chemical reaction at a particular point in the process is identical to another at the same point (witht he same properties), and both (by the identical nature of their states) show that their hsitories are identical. Thier future reactions and properties may differ, but they are identical at that point.

To me, this is a correlary of the "if it can't be measured, it can't have an effect" rule...a logical conclusion (if it has an effect on the physical world, that effect can be measured, at least in theory). If no difference between the two can be measured, except arbitrary differences (situational, or marking done after transport, or some post-duplication identifying event that differentiates them, such as location), then they are the same.
 
I believe the transporter does indeed kill him and then makes a copy -- an exact duplicate, if you will.
This raises the interesting question of what exactly we mean by death, from a materialist perspective.

Take the case of those people who have had their heads frozen, hoping to be revived in the future. Are they dead? I'd say almost certainly, but we can't be sure. We don't know what technology will exist in the future to revive them. Will they have lost all their memories? Well, look at what we can do to recover apparently destroyed data from computer hard drives. With sufficient technology it may one day be possible to fully reconstitute these frozen brains (though I'd bet that future generations will have better things to do).

If we reject the idea of some non-material soul then what is death? I'd say it's just the irreversable loss of function and memory. But with sufficient technology you don't know that it's irreversable. So you can only ever declare someone provisionally dead. If they can be revived at some date in the future then they weren't dead.

If death is just an injury you don't recover from then we can't say that even an "injury" like being completely atomised in a transporter has killed you. If technology exists to put you back together again then you clearly were never dead in the first place. And its obviously irrelevant whether we use "your" atoms to reconstruct you, all atoms being interchangeable.
 
Physically, you're quite correct. Legally, ethically and morally? Nah. :)


See, here is where we differ :)

Because I believe that any rational and reasonable goal for a legal system, and by extension ethics and morality, must be based on the individual. These are all systems designed to guide an influence behavior...to modify individual behaviors enough so that productive cooperation within the group is possible. SInce an exact duplicate copies a person's personality, mannerisms, beliefs, intentions, desires, etc, etc, etc...then I don't see how any moral, legal, or ethical standard that would apply to the original would not apply to the duplicate. That's the point I'm having trouble understanding...why?
 

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