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GreyICE

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Mar 6, 2008
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I admit it, I am a transhumanist. I don't want to hop right into some ideological rant about the entire concept, so I'll just open the floor for discussion.

Let me just say that its incredibly obvious that there are numerous design flaws in the human body, and anyone who glorifies it as anything other than a rather obnoxious meat shell severely lacking in basic capability is delusional about the quality of the 'design.'
 
Hi

On the other hand, it adapts nicely to a range of environments where, "better designed," mechanisms would probably fail, has an extraordinarily broad range of marginal skills where a, "better designed," mechanism might excel at a few...

Most importantly: It out-breeds the mosquito. Who in their right mind would put that in the design specs?
 
For us less enlightened, what do you see as some of these 'design flaws'?
 
Hi

On the other hand, it adapts nicely to a range of environments where, "better designed," mechanisms would probably fail, has an extraordinarily broad range of marginal skills where a, "better designed," mechanism might excel at a few...

Most importantly: It out-breeds the mosquito. Who in their right mind would put that in the design specs?

Knees, limited lifespan, crappy mental abilities, sleep is just a horrible idea, and don't even get me started on the throat/windpipe situation. That one is just bad.

There's plenty of basic improvements we could make in general without ever getting near compromising the flexibility. The only real impact would probably be an increased calorie requirement, not an issue in this day and age.
 
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Knees, limited lifespan, crappy mental abilities, sleep is just a horrible idea, and don't even get me started on the throat/windpipe situation. That one is just bad.

There's plenty of basic improvements we could make in general without ever getting near compromising the flexibility. The only real impact would probably be an increased calorie requirement, not an issue in this day and age.

LOL, thought so
 
As far as the human body goes, I suppose I can't really object to some possible improvements there. I would personally refuse because I'm a bit fond of the 'natural', but considering that people today are changing their bodies for cosmetic purposes, which lacks much practical reason, I can't possibly see how useful improvements could be worse.

When it comes to our mind (brain, in practice, I guess), however, I suggest we tread carefully. That includes sleep, which is clearly a function which serves some crucial psychological purposes. With our current knowledge, even hypothetical transhumanism of this area seems too distant to discuss.

Also, there is the general problem of what improvement is. Improvement to the individual or to mankind? Often they intersect, but not always. Also, if changes have to be made before birth, is it right to decide for that individual what is an 'improvement'? I haven't really discussed the issue before, so I'd like to see how a transhumanist feels about these questions.
 
Transhumanism? Some things I would accept:

- A treatment that would remove harmful cholesterol from my blood, and permanently eliminate the build-up of plaques inside my arteries.

- A few new teeth (and maybe a new jaw) grown from my own cells.

- Enhanced night vision and/or extending my visual response into the infrared.

- My brain transplanted into a younger version of my current body, with full motor control and sensory input.

And some things I could not accept:

- A neural implant that would allow me to directly jack into the Internet.

- Replacement of my limbs and organs with "improved" artificial ones (unless doing so would save my life).

- Transplantation of my brain into a cyborg body.

- A "Brain Peel" to place my consciousness inside a computer.
 
As far as the human body goes, I suppose I can't really object to some possible improvements there. I would personally refuse because I'm a bit fond of the 'natural', but considering that people today are changing their bodies for cosmetic purposes, which lacks much practical reason, I can't possibly see how useful improvements could be worse.

When it comes to our mind (brain, in practice, I guess), however, I suggest we tread carefully. That includes sleep, which is clearly a function which serves some crucial psychological purposes. With our current knowledge, even hypothetical transhumanism of this area seems too distant to discuss.
Sleep elimination is obviously a long ways off. However, we can definitely alter our mental functioning for the better. Imagine, for a second, the advantages of eidetic memory, perfect recall, improved concentration, hormone regulation (the end of PMS, among other things) - huge improvement.

Also, there is the general problem of what improvement is. Improvement to the individual or to mankind? Often they intersect, but not always. Also, if changes have to be made before birth, is it right to decide for that individual what is an 'improvement'? I haven't really discussed the issue before, so I'd like to see how a transhumanist feels about these questions.

It's not a matter of deciding the genetic code before birth or letting them decide it. Its a matter of making the decision in a conscientious, responsible manner with the best interests of your child in mind, or allowing the decision to be made by random chance. We have no problem with a woman selecting a sperm donor based on qualities like appearance, a description, or anything they think might help their child be successful. What is that but primitive genetic engineering? If you have the option of making your child live longer, healthier, smarter, and prettier, or playing the genetic lottery, which would you choose?

Of course there will be a spate of designer babies - glow in the dark skin, odd eyes, weird hair colorations, etc. This will inevitably ignite some sort of debate before everyone realizes 'hey, appearance - ESPECIALLY in this day and age - means nothing.'
 
I admit it, I am a transhumanist. I don't want to hop right into some ideological rant about the entire concept, so I'll just open the floor for discussion.

Let me just say that its incredibly obvious that there are numerous design flaws in the human body, and anyone who glorifies it as anything other than a rather obnoxious meat shell severely lacking in basic capability is delusional about the quality of the 'design.'

To my mind the first issue to address is behaviour, not the mechanics. More bonobo, far less Pan Troglodytes, would see a major improvement. Next stop : the Culture :).
 
To my mind the first issue to address is behaviour, not the mechanics. More bonobo, far less Pan Troglodytes, would see a major improvement. Next stop : the Culture :).

Yeah not much point worrying about the paint work if the transmission still sucks
 
If you have the option of making your child live longer, healthier, smarter, and prettier, or playing the genetic lottery, which would you choose?

Who gets given the choice, though? The genetic lottery is freely available, but this choice isn't going to be. We're faced with a class of people who can claim to be "better-bred" than others, with some justification. A new aristocracy. Speciation of a most unwelcome kind won't be far behind.

Or not. Whatever. I'll be long gone anyway(and my line ends with me).

The earliest manifestation of such "choice" is an over-abundance of young males in some societies, which never augurs well for them or their neighbours.
 
And some things I could not accept:

- A neural implant that would allow me to directly jack into the Internet.

...

- Transplantation of my brain into a cyborg body.

- A "Brain Peel" to place my consciousness inside a computer.

But those are all the cool ones!

To be honest, those are the mods I would do. I wouldn't want to tamper too much with DNA and bio junk.
 
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Sounds like the beginning of a Jerry Seinfeld monologue.

"And what's the deal with hemorrhoids? Wouldn't you think that the intestine would recognize the anus as the 'door you must not go through'? I mean, you don't have to tell your uvula to stay in the back of your throat, right? Your eyeballs pretty much tend to hang around in the same sockets, Marty Feldman excepted. So why is it this string of goop wants to crawl out your butt?"
 
Who gets given the choice, though? The genetic lottery is freely available, but this choice isn't going to be. We're faced with a class of people who can claim to be "better-bred" than others, with some justification. A new aristocracy. Speciation of a most unwelcome kind won't be far behind.
It is NOT freely available. The costs are just hidden - damage to the environment, long-term resource cosumption, ultimately unsustainability.

Will there be a new nobility? Yeah, possibly. But honestly, genetic alteration is already very easy to do. The key is figuring out WHICH alterations to make. Once the mind work has been put in, the actual alterations are a breeze, we've been doing them forever. There may be an underclass of people who don't upgrade their children. And to that I say, too damn bad. Do we hold back technological progress because it makes it harder for the Amish to farm?


Or not. Whatever. I'll be long gone anyway(and my line ends with me).

The earliest manifestation of such "choice" is an over-abundance of young males in some societies, which never augurs well for them or their neighbours.
Gender is such a human concept. Transhumanity should be able to change it at will.
 
Transhumanism? Some things I would accept:

- A treatment that would remove harmful cholesterol from my blood, and permanently eliminate the build-up of plaques inside my arteries.

- A few new teeth (and maybe a new jaw) grown from my own cells.

- Enhanced night vision and/or extending my visual response into the infrared.

- My brain transplanted into a younger version of my current body, with full motor control and sensory input.

And some things I could not accept:

- A neural implant that would allow me to directly jack into the Internet.

- Replacement of my limbs and organs with "improved" artificial ones (unless doing so would save my life).

- Transplantation of my brain into a cyborg body.

- A "Brain Peel" to place my consciousness inside a computer.
You don't have to accept them. They're coming anyway. Honestly, what's the problem with a cyborg body? If you can accept stuff like clone transplants (and possibly memory recording, I didn't see that there) whats wrong with cyborg? At least cyborgs you aren't overwriting a blank mind with yours, essentially destroying a human life to survive.
 
Knees, limited lifespan, crappy mental abilities, sleep is just a horrible idea, and don't even get me started on the throat/windpipe situation. That one is just bad.

There's plenty of basic improvements we could make in general without ever getting near compromising the flexibility. The only real impact would probably be an increased calorie requirement, not an issue in this day and age.

There are biological reasons for every physiological inconvenience you can think of. Its a bit premature to write them off as unnecessary without fully understanding those reasons, methinks.
 
It is NOT freely available. The costs are just hidden - damage to the environment, long-term resource cosumption, ultimately unsustainability.

It's freely available at the time. Sperm, egg, uterus, hope for the best.

Will there be a new nobility? Yeah, possibly. But honestly, genetic alteration is already very easy to do

Genetic selection of embryos is easy to do, but would you (given the current state of play) choose genetic alteration for your offspring?
 
It's freely available at the time. Sperm, egg, uterus, hope for the best.
Yay, lets totally create a life that could last a century or more with all the accuracy and reliability of a craps throw!


Genetic selection of embryos is easy to do, but would you (given the current state of play) choose genetic alteration for your offspring?
Given the current state of affairs? Certainly. I'd demand that any hereditary diseases be totally eliminated from the genome at the very least.
 
I have some difficulties with transhumanism.

In regards to physical changes -- increasing life span, making bodies more durable, getting rid of genetic diseases, etc. -- I am mostly in agreement. But many transhumanists go far beyond this. They advocate tampering with intelligence. Not just preventing genetic conditions that cause mental retardation (such as Down's Syndrome), but in trying to play with our genetics to boost the intelligence of 'normal' people.

And some transhumanists go even further, getting into issues of ethics and morality. Finding a way to program people to be more 'moral', to rid society of those elements that transhumanists find undesirable (racists, people who enjoy hurting others, etc.).

When it comes to simply tweaking our physical bodies, I don't have big problems, and would likely support the vast majority of such transhumanist goals.

When it comes to tweaking our brains, I have a bigger problem. Making changes to a person's body doesn't really change the essence of 'who they are' (a person who gets plastic surgery, for example, may appear physically be be somewhat different, but mentally is still the same person). But once we start to play with peoples' minds, it is a different story. Even relatively minor changes in the brain can have drastic results on a person's behavior, personality, etc. I'd have significant concerns that experiments in this realm aren't just 'tweaking' us to make our lives better; they involve fundamental changes that will have a far more sweeping impact on humanity as a whole.

Given that, the question is -- who has the right to determine what is 'right' or 'wrong' in such a scenario...what is desirable, and what is undesirable?

This becomes an even more obvious problem when you start talking about attempting to directly change how people think, or control/program their moral/ethical behaviors/beliefs.

This is where that old story of Frankenstein becomes so very, very relevant.

Sure, most transhumanists will make arguments that such technology and knowledge would be used very carefully, within a democratic system, based on individual choice, etc. But that's a fairy tale...the vision of someone so disassociated from reality that I really do not want them being the ones making decisions in a project like this.

What would happen in reality is that, inevitably, some people would use this technology in far worse ways. China, for example, may use it to produce a population that is more intelligent, but also more passive and obedient to authorities, creating a nation of super-intelligent slaves. Or North Korea might use it to create super-soldiers -- soldiers with incredible physical abilities and endurance, increased intelligence, etc.; but also bred to have little or no empathy for others, even to enjoy killing others, creating a true 'warrior race'.

Anyone who thinks that they can create such technology, but somehow avoid such abuses, is living in a world that has no connection to our own. So my question would be thus:

Granted that transhumanism could, potentially, bring many benefits to improve our quality of life; would those benefits be equal to or greater than the ways in which this could be abused to create greater suffering and pain?

Would being able to live longer, healthier lives outweigh the dangers of an enemy creating super-soldiers to conquer your country, for example? Because once the former is possible, so is the latter.
 
There are biological reasons for every physiological inconvenience you can think of. Its a bit premature to write them off as unnecessary without fully understanding those reasons, methinks.

Okay, what reason is there for knees (just make the entire apparatus bend backwards and let the knee **** go, its as useful as a whale's pelvic bones)?

What reason is there to locate a tube designed to ingest objects of various sizes and shapes in such a way that if it gets clogged it cuts off the tube that must absolutely not be cut off in order to survive? Seriously, who does that? Don't we at least get a backup tube in our chest so that we can still breath even if the main tube gets disconnected? The lack of redundancy is a huge flaw in our design.
 

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