Transhumanism

[GreyICE]

Oh, and if you want the truly scary, go bug the singularists. They scare me.

 

[Wolfman]

GreyICE,

While I appreciate your desire to "do good and help others", I have serious questions about your credibility, both in regards to knowledge of what you are discussing, and with regards to claims having a moral philosophy to guide this.

You stated:

Hence why we're developing a philosophy to set adequate controls

So you claim to advocate for some sort of philosophy that supposedly prevents the abuses I've listed. But, in your own arguments, you also state:

the fact that supersoldiers are probably going to end up with three or four basic genetic templates, so wiping out a third of the army with a tailored virus is not only easy, its laughably easy

At the very same time that you claim to be able to prevent such abuses, you advocate for using biological warfare, and the deliberate development of viral weapons, as a valid and "laughably easy" way to deal with another government creating people that you don't like.

And this, more than anything else, demonstrates the problem that I have with this kind of belief; arguments for "morality" are quickly exposed as rather shallow at best. Once again, it just becomes the old story of, "I am right, and therefore justified in doing whatever is necessary to defeat my opponents".

And in regards to how much you know what you're talking about, we have this brilliant quote in response to my comments on the caste system in India:

Because the caste system is dead? Seriously, relic of the past. No longer exists. Gone.

I'm living in China, and have visited India on numerous occasions. I am close friends with an Indian woman who has committed her entire life to trying to eliminate the abuses of the caste system...all without much result. Just do a Google search, you'll find tons of references to how the caste system not only still "exists", but plays a prominent role in Indian social and political life.

Just a few years ago, doctors in India (people who are supposed to be better educated and more "modern" in their thinking) held a national strike to protest the Indian government's legislation that forced medical schools to accept students from lower castes.

You make assertions of fact based on what at best can be termed naivety, and at worst blatant ignorance. You advocate that the people who believe in this will set up some sort of moral guidelines...yet in the very same breath, advocate the use of grossly immoral practices to defeat those who may oppose you.

Sadly, in my experience, most of the keenest advocates for transhumanism are people very much like yourself. Idealists who, demonstrably, have very noble intentions and goals; but who let their idealism blind them to larger realities, or who claim knowledge on issues of which they are, in fact, entirely ignorant.

 

[leonAzul]

[qimg]http://www.amonline.net.au/mammals/images/gallery/400/roo_skel_gall_24.jpg[/qimg]


Show me a kangaroo jogging, and I will pay you $100.00

I have a bigger problem with the assertion that a kangaroo's knee bends the opposite way from a human's. Not only does the picture (thanks, just what I was looking for) show it articulated in the same sense as a human knee, it clearly has that cussed patella we find so disagreeable.

Perhaps you were thinking of our fleet of foot friend, the heron?
[qimg]http://tinyurl.com/2dnxvq[/qimg]

 

[GreyICE]

GreyICE,

While I appreciate your desire to "do good and help others", I have serious questions about your credibility, both in regards to knowledge of what you are discussing, and with regards to claims having a moral philosophy to guide this.

You stated:
So you claim to advocate for some sort of philosophy that supposedly prevents the abuses I've listed. But, in your own arguments, you also state:

At the very same time that you claim to be able to prevent such abuses, you advocate for using biological warfare, and the deliberate development of viral weapons, as a valid and "laughably easy" way to deal with another government creating people that you don't like.

And this, more than anything else, demonstrates the problem that I have with this kind of belief; arguments for "morality" are quickly exposed as rather shallow at best. Once again, it just becomes the old story of, "I am right, and therefore justified in doing whatever is necessary to defeat my opponents".

It's not a matter of right or wrong here. The people who are in the wrong are creating supersoldiers who are programmed to, I dunno, MDK? It really doesn't make any sense to me, so sorry for not taking it seriously. If it makes you feel better, change it to a virus that strips the supersoldier parts of their genes, rendering them pretty worthless.

Really though, they'd never top a machine, so its a pointless threat. I just can't take it seriously.

And in regards to how much you know what you're talking about, we have this brilliant quote in response to my comments on the caste system in India:
I'm living in China, and have visited India on numerous occasions. I am close friends with an Indian woman who has committed her entire life to trying to eliminate the abuses of the caste system...all without much result. Just do a Google search, you'll find tons of references to how the caste system not only still "exists", but plays a prominent role in Indian social and political life.

Just a few years ago, doctors in India (people who are supposed to be better educated and more "modern" in their thinking) held a national strike to protest the Indian government's legislation that forced medical schools to accept students from lower castes.

You sure that's what it was, and not a protest against the caste-based reservations, which are designed to eliminate the caste system, but have some serious side-effects (think affermative action programs on steroids).

You make assertions of fact based on what at best can be termed naivety, and at worst blatant ignorance. You advocate that the people who believe in this will set up some sort of moral guidelines...yet in the very same breath, advocate the use of grossly immoral practices to defeat those who may oppose you.

Uh... supersoldiers. Sorry, I just keep treating it like the plot from a B-rated SciFi movie. It's so laughable.

BTW, the gene-tailored virus wouldn't kill a single person who wasn't a soldier. It would be the nicest smart bomb ever - no civilian deaths, no property destroyed, no refugees, just dead soldiers. And you're saying that's less ethical than fighting with guns and bombs and killing thousands of innocents? Define 'ethical' in the context its used here.

Sadly, in my experience, most of the keenest advocates for transhumanism are people very much like yourself. Idealists who, demonstrably, have very noble intentions and goals; but who let their idealism blind them to larger realities, or who claim knowledge on issues of which they are, in fact, entirely ignorant.

I'm not blind to the risks. I just think they're easily minimized and acceptable. A few possible early abuses is not a reason to hold back on improving the human species.

 

[MG1962]

Honestly? A couple in zoos. I'm an American. I've seen videos. I'm not saying the concept is perfect. I'm suggesting a template for improvement. We know what's wrong with the 'roo leg, and what's wrong with the human leg. Lets work at combining the two, and end up with a design better than either - the precision of the human leg with the strength and power of the kangaroo leg.

The thing is there are far better designs than a roo - the darn thing is on the Australian Coat of Arms cause it can't even take a step backwards. Nature has this knack of sticking to things that work. The knee we humans use is almost universal in application. The reason for this. Any other design just fell by the wayside.

 

[Wolfman]

You sure that's what it was, and not a protest against the caste-based reservations, which are designed to eliminate the caste system, but have some serious side-effects (think affermative action programs on steroids).

Like I said...do even a basic Google search on India and the caste system. You'll find it is still very much alive, very much active.

As I said before...what is your 'authority' for making the claim that it is "dead", "non-existent", etc. I don't think there is any claim you've made here that I can indisputably prove to be wrong than this one; yet you not only make the claim, but even after I point out its error, you still try to find a way to defend it.

Uh... supersoldiers. Sorry, I just keep treating it like the plot from a B-rated SciFi movie. It's so laughable.

Yeah, you're right. Our world governments long ago gave up on trying to build superior armies, create superior soldiers, etc. Thank god they no longer spend countless billions of dollars on trying to do just that.

BTW, the gene-tailored virus wouldn't kill a single person who wasn't a soldier. It would be the nicest smart bomb ever - no civilian deaths, no property destroyed, no refugees, just dead soldiers. And you're saying that's less ethical than fighting with guns and bombs and killing thousands of innocents? Define 'ethical' in the context its used here.
I'm not blind to the risks. I just think they're easily minimized and acceptable. A few possible early abuses is not a reason to hold back on improving the human species.

Wow...dude...you blow me away.

Talk about questionable ethics. You talk quite blithely about biological warfare, about creating weaponized viruses that are targeted to take out very specific portions of a population. Hey, its all okay...after all, we'll be killing "them", no "us"! You discount as "ludicrous" the idea that governments would use this technology for military purposes, to create better soldiers, but then turn around and dismiss biological warfare as an entirely benign and acceptable alternative.

And do you think I want people like you determining the "philosophy" for how such technology will be used? Absolutely, positively NOT.

"Oh, people won't use viruses for warfare! And if they do, we can stop them! Oh...but...if I find it useful for our side to use viral warfare, that's a different story, that's just fine!"

 

[GreyICE]

Like I said...do even a basic Google search on India and the caste system. You'll find it is still very much alive, very much active.

As I said before...what is your 'authority' for making the claim that it is "dead", "non-existent", etc. I don't think there is any claim you've made here that I can indisputably prove to be wrong than this one; yet you not only make the claim, but even after I point out its error, you still try to find a way to defend it.

If by alive you mean 'in its death throws.' Okay, its still important for religious purposes, but it's currently as alive as slavery in 1960s America.

Yeah, you're right. Our world governments long ago gave up on trying to build superior armies, create superior soldiers, etc. Thank god they no longer spend countless billions of dollars on trying to do just that.
Wow...dude...you blow me away.

No, let me try explaining again. Supersoldiers are drone robots. Incredibly fast reflexes, unbeatable organization, no stress, no psychological problems, coordination at a level that is beyond superhuman. Supersoldiers might have 5x the reflexes of a normal human and be able to see 10x better than the human norm, making them incredible marksmen. Computers can coordinate with eachother to create a picture of the battlefield in realtime, and allow individual drones to aim at targets they can't even see, in realtime. Supersoldiers might be strong enough to bench press half a ton. Drones don't need to benchpress anything, they can deploy anything from 6" to 20' units to move in, around, over, or through any obstacle. Supersoldiers would be fearless, brave, and unafraid of death. Computers can calculate risk, intelligently deploy to minimize it, and sacrifice individual drones to best preserve resources.

Oh, and we started deploying them before the turn of the century. The military is already theorizing about replacing organic soldiers in the field.

Your genetic supersoldiers are trash next to a coordinated drone army.

Talk about questionable ethics. You talk quite blithely about biological warfare, about creating weaponized viruses that are targeted to take out very specific portions of a population. Hey, its all okay...after all, we'll be killing "them", no "us"! You discount as "ludicrous" the idea that governments would use this technology for military purposes, to create better soldiers, but then turn around and dismiss biological warfare as an entirely benign and acceptable alternative.

Um, no. I dismiss as ludicrous the idea that someone would decide to use a really bad weapon over the logical alternative (machines).

As for the targetted weapons, besides hysteria, the soldiers are dead either way. Does it matter if we shot them or bombed them, or killed them with a virus? WHY does it matter? Besides, gene-tailored viruses are not part of transhumanism - they're simply inevitable. If you think every major military isn't working on them at this moment, right now, you're the naive one. I guarantee you that the US, China, Russia, and most probably Britain, Japan, France, and possibly several other countries have similar programs rolling at this moment.

And do you think I want people like you determining the "philosophy" for how such technology will be used? Absolutely, positively NOT.

Then participate in deciding the philosophy! So far it's people like me who are thinking about it. If you let us, we will define thought about it. And its not going to be the 'lets all go luddite' routine.

"Oh, people won't use viruses for warfare! And if they do, we can stop them! Oh...but...if I find it useful for our side to use viral warfare, that's a different story, that's just fine!"

Please. Nano-scale warfare is an inevitability. It's really time for you to start thinking in terms of what should or shouldn't be, and start thinking in terms of what is or isn't. As soon as major militaries are certain that the weapons are safe enough to deploy, they'll sugar coat them with names like nano-*technobabble* instead of viral (the difference between organic and technological is rather blurry at that level) and deploy them. They'll probably have some non-organic elements so we're absolutely 100% sure they can't reproduce too often. I'm just realistic that they'll be viruses, not smart-nanites.

 

[Beerina]

As far as the human body goes, I suppose I can't really object to some possible improvements there. I would personally refuse because I'm a bit fond of the 'natural', but considering that people today are changing their bodies for cosmetic purposes, which lacks much practical reason, I can't possibly see how useful improvements could be worse.

Many analyze this from improvements to a healthy body. At this point, I'd settle for improvements that prevent unhealthy bodies.

Heart disease, strokes, cancer, diabetes, these are all failure modes from the breakdown of various systems in the body. The body is not robust in preventing them. The body is not robust in reversing them. The body is not robust in redundancy to ameliorate them.

When it comes to our mind (brain, in practice, I guess), however, I suggest we tread carefully. That includes sleep, which is clearly a function which serves some crucial psychological purposes. With our current knowledge, even hypothetical transhumanism of this area seems too distant to discuss.

Sleep could still be preserved if useful (which I think it is). The real issue with sleep is that it cuts into a pathetically short lifespan substantially. Extend the lifespan a lot, or indefinitely, and the main problem with sleep evaporates.

Also, there is the general problem of what improvement is. Improvement to the individual or to mankind? Often they intersect, but not always. Also, if changes have to be made before birth, is it right to decide for that individual what is an 'improvement'? I haven't really discussed the issue before, so I'd like to see how a transhumanist feels about these questions.

Not really concerned with "mankind" per se. When a politician opens his mouth about "mankind", he usually means "Hey, that guy's doing something I claim is suspect and harmful to you, the masses. Follow me, and I'll bash his head in!"

In any case, these politicians and their kids will be among the first to jump in for improvements, in hopes of gaining an advantage over their competition.

 

[Beerina]

And some things I could not accept:

- A neural implant that would allow me to directly jack into the Internet.

...

- Transplantation of my brain into a cyborg body.

- A "Brain Peel" to place my consciousness inside a computer.

Bring it on!

I'll be sure to place flowers on your grave after you expire in the next few tens of thousands of years.

 

[Beerina]

Who gets given the choice, though? The genetic lottery is freely available, but this choice isn't going to be. We're faced with a class of people who can claim to be "better-bred" than others, with some justification. A new aristocracy. Speciation of a most unwelcome kind won't be far behind.

Or not. Whatever. I'll be long gone anyway(and my line ends with me).

The earliest manifestation of such "choice" is an over-abundance of young males in some societies, which never augurs well for them or their neighbours.

China, with something like 50 million more young men than young women, and an exploding technological and industrial base, combined with an authoritarian dicatorship, you mean?

Nah, don't seen any problems developing there in the next 20 years.

 

[Beerina]

[qimg]http://www.amonline.net.au/mammals/images/gallery/400/roo_skel_gall_24.jpg[/qimg]


Show me a kangaroo jogging, and I will pay you $100.00

You mean show you a kangaroo hobbling along in an inefficient, poorly-designed manner? Why would a kangaroo want to do such a thing?

It's like saying, "Oh yeah? Show me a bird jogging! Yeah! Didn't think of that, did ya?"

 

[Bikewer]

Fred Pohl, in his HeeChee novels, had some interesting takes on what life might be like as an "uploaded" consciousness in a computer environment.... Some good points, some bad.

As to a cyborg body, I'd have to see what we were talking about.

Desirable cyborg body:

http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/50/23/0000035023_20061021050352.jpg

Not so-desirable cyborg body:

http://www.ghettodriveby.com/images/dalek.jpg

 

[CapelDodger]

Yay, lets totally create a life that could last a century or more with all the accuracy and reliability of a craps throw!

It's worked well so far. Take me as a case in point ... .

We actually have a lot of mate selection behaviours that take some of the randomness out of it. Those "fitness indicators" often do indicate fitness.

Given the current state of affairs? Certainly. I'd demand that any hereditary diseases be totally eliminated from the genome at the very least.

You might be able to do that by embryo selection these days (and in fact it's done to some extent), but not by genetic manipulation. That's simply too immature a technology at present.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

... sleep is just a horrible idea ...

Are you serious? Sleep is a marvelous thing.

I guess transhumanism is in the eye of the beholder.

~~ Paul

 

[CapelDodger]

China, with something like 50 million more young men than young women, and an exploding technological and industrial base, combined with an authoritarian dicatorship, you mean?

Let's not forget the increasing demand for raw materials.

Nah, don't seen any problems developing there in the next 20 years.

It starts with Chinese military advisors in Africa, then some specialists, then a few combat troops, then the draft is introduced ...

Keep your eye on Africa. China is. Super-soldiers be damned, masses of ordinary ones will generally do the trick.

 

[CapelDodger]

Are you serious? Sleep is a marvelous thing.

To sleep, perchance to dream ...

I sleep like a baby myself. I wet the bed and wake up screaming ...

I guess transhumanism is in the eye of the beholder.

As are boob-jobs. Before they're taken in hand, that is.

 

[GreyICE]

Let's not forget the increasing demand for raw materials.



It starts with Chinese military advisors in Africa, then some specialists, then a few combat troops, then the draft is introduced ...

Keep your eye on Africa. China is. Super-soldiers be damned, masses of ordinary ones will generally do the trick.

Three words: Battle of Mogadishu.

The worst possible situation you can imagine for the soldiers - outnumbered, outgunned, in a battle they didn't plan for, didn't prepare for, and didn't want.

End result? 19 American dead, 73 wounded. 500-2000 Somalians killed.

Superior training and superior weaponry have a geometric effect on force multipliers. That's why supersoldiers would never replace computer-driven forces, and why masses of men do nothing. That's why we repealed the draft, among other reasons - all it did was give us sub-par troops.

 

[AkuManiMani]

I can't wait to watch you choke to death on a pretzel while I open my secondary breathing tube then fish the offending object out without ever being in the least bit of danger.

Seriously, shapism might last a while, but it'll go eventually. Still, let it never be said that the human race made progress without some piece of bigotry protesting.

I'll be in my lab...creating more elegant Frankenstein monsters than you!

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

... snip...

I can't wait to watch you choke to death on a pretzel while I open my secondary breathing tube then fish the offending object out without ever being in the least bit of danger.
... snip ...

...and I'll stand there, happily watching, battering in my solar plexus with the back of a chair as the enzyme released to open the secondary breathing tube dissolves your lungs!

Oh, what fun we'll have.

An Old and Silly Turkish Story, but One Worth Reading:

Naz'r Udin, called The Hoja, was tending his fields one day.

On this day, he was harvesting melons. Not just any kind of melon, mind you, but that BIG kind with thick, hard rinds and all that sweet, juicy meat inside...

As he worked, he cursed and yelled up to Allah that if The All-Merciful had been any KIND of a designer, He would have put the great, heavy, mucking melons up on a tree where men would not have to break their backs to pick them instead of a low-laying vine where even the strongest of men were pained in their harvest.

Some time later, worn and sore from picking up great, heavy, mucking melons, and vociferously telling Allah how to do His job, Naz'r Udin sat down under the walnut tree to have a drink and rest a bit.

The Hoja took off his hat, had a drink from his water jug, and as he rested, a walnut falling from the tree and hit him, painfully, on the head.

Naz'r Udin looked at the walnut and felt the size of the bump on his head, then he looked at one of the huge, heavy, hard-rinded melons.

He immediately fell upon his face and cried, "there is not God but Allah, and His judgment and design are perfect and right!"

Watch out for walnuts, Grey.

....

And, if you all are busy cooking up new kinds of humans, may I please, Please, PLEASE have one that looks like Summer Glau or Jessica Alba?

<<sigh>> I know, I know.. I AM a troglodyte, but I'm OLD, not DEAD!!

 

[Prometheus]

The more useful/powerful any tool is, the more dangerous it is in the hands of a fool. To my mind, any functional improvement to the human being is just a built in tool, so the same rule applies. So the first improvement needs to be the elimination of those parts that make us susceptible to woo. Otherwise, what's the point?