Transgender man gives birth

[Porpoise of Life]

Just out of curiosity, why don't they want to be outed?

"I'm a woman and proud of it! I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan!"

Honest question -I'm not being flippant or anything.

Seems to me a woman who decides to be a man would very much want to be honest about her journey, if only because she might convince other men she would have an insight into "what women want" which most men claim they can't figure out.

Why is it a secret?

Because of the comparatively high risk for them to become a victim of (sexual) violence. Forcibly 'outing' them to strangers, without giving them a choice in the matter, is putting them at risk.

Also, your level of stereotyping (men don't know what women think, transmen have special powers in this regard) tells me that either you were being flippant, or your ideas about gender and gender roles are so alien to me that we can never start to convince you that you're not at risk of being raped by hordes of crossdressers if we let people poop without hassling them...

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I don't think it's irrational at all. Categorizations and generalizations, while not perfect, allow us to communicate effectively.

However, removing that ability by making nouns and pronouns meaningless would certainly be a great way to chill discussion, and break social bonds. Do you think that would be more beneficial?



Okay; I'm not certain I agree, but I know the psychiatric community does, so I won't try to argue the point.



I see.... So, by that logic, if we remove cultural conditioning, men and women will start to think the same? If so, what do you think prompted the cultural conditioning? Do you think it's possible that conditioning came about in response to observable differences?



I don't interact with tomatoes, so it doesn't matter if they're male or female.




But, but, but....





But, but, but....



If gender doesn't exist, we're back to sex. If gender doesn't exist, transgender doesn't exist, so there's no reason for anyone to be upset if we separate the sexes.



Which is it? There is no gender; or gender is just a periphery with no real meaning?



Sometimes, slight differences are everything. When it comes to biology, extremely slight differences lead to very different outcomes.



It changes how I'm able to act, and how I'm expected to act.

Objectively, without a penis I'm pretty much unable to pee standing up, unable to impregnate someone, unable to use it to injure any one else.

Socially, a penis puts one on an entirely different life-track from the moment of birth, and as far as I know that's universal. I don't think there's ever been a time or place where men and women have not been assigned different roles or been perceived as exactly the same. I'm sure someone will be 'round soon to correct me if I'm wrong.



That goes both ways. If every individual has the final word about who they are, then everyone who sees it differently must just be confused. How much confusion -and the resulting strife- should we all tolerate before we have the right to start insisting on lumping some folks together for the sake of order and effective decision making?

If we can no longer use "objective reality" as a means of ordering and categorizing the world, how in hell can we even have a society?

Objective reality: Bill murdered Jane.
New Social Order: Bill doesn't feel like a murderer, has decided he should not be inconvenienced by any behavior modifying measures. If you disagree with Bill, you're just confused.

I thought we had gotten so far when you admitted TG people will use the bathroom that corresponds to their appearance and no one will be any the wiser. No problems. *sigh*

First bit : Grouping people together always seems to end up with prejudice to me. All Jews are greedy, all men are rapists, women can't fo maths. I don't know about you but none of my conversations are dependant on claiming that an entire group is one way.

You keep acting like language is being destroyed. As if calling someone with a Y chromosome Miss will make eveything that falls out of your mouth turn to mush. It's possible you already have without knowing it. Which social bonds are broken by that? Why were the so weak in the first place?

Second bit : Everytime you insist that feeling female doesn't mean anything you are arguing with them.

Third bit : If we get rid of all this Men are doctors and engineers and Women are Mummies who are bad at maths stereotypes? Yes. I don't know why these differences came about. Women were considered physically and mentally fragile for a long time. Are you implying that they were being treated that way because they were?

Fourth bit : You know what I meant. How does gender affect how you think of day to day things. Do women see a tomato and immediately start thinking of recipies? Do men look at it and just start honking it like a boob?

Fifth, sixth and seventh : I don't specifically feel either gender. Or sex really. I am me. I don't lump people together by eye or skin colour either. I am also able to entertain the possibility that a state of mind exists without experiencing it. Like knowing homosexuality exists without being gay. I don't advocate seperating people based on something harmless which is beyond their control.

Eighth (is that right it looks weird?) : My friends have told me the gender they prefer. All match up with their physical characteristics except my one non-binary one. It doesn't affect how we treat each other. Nor should it.

Ninth : The obsession with this difference is extreme though. If someone showed you stats saying black people or people of a certain age range are more violent would you want to be seperate from them too?

Tenth : I'm not going to treat people differently based on something so trivial as whether they can pee standing up or impregnate someone. I don't know who told you you had to. To me that is like seperating people who can wiggle their ears or curl their tongue. And your focus on the penis as a weapon is the root of our disagreement. Hands are a weapon. Feet, teeth, elbows. Is the penis the epitome of bodily weapons?

Your talking about discrimination. Socially and culturally people weren't allowed to vote without a penis. Since you think the social factor has some kind of rational purpose would you mind explaining it?

And why does it matter what people used to do? Society is never static, it always changes. Like the voting thing. Or abolishing slavery. I understand that change is scary but my fear of change shouldn't hold others in place.

Next : You can't know how someone else feels objectively. We can all agree on what chromosomes people have but there has been little agreement on the mind. Objectively there is no such thing as a male or female brain. Physically, they are slightly different but when it comes to functioning we all have a bit of a mix.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

When it comes to TG brains they seem to be more similar physically to their preferred gender even before any treatment.

You need to look deep inside yourself and figure out why your TG examples include bugs in food and murder.

In any case this would be more like Bill the murderer asking to be called Billie.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Okay; when the headlines read:

Women of race a sexually harass more women of race b than men do!

Then we'll talk about it.

In the meantime, more men sexually harass women than other women do, so ATM, ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

And this harassment is already illegal, yes?

Adding a law to collectively punish transgender persons for the actions of men seems to be quite missing the mark.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[DreamingNaiad]

That is the crux of the debate. But there are those who will vehemently argue the bolded part because a pre-op transwoman is biologically an intact, functional man. A lot of women are not comfortable with that; but feel they are being told their feelings on the matter are irrational or they're confused, or their wishes just don't count.

Which, to me...ironically enough, is a very strong argument against the whole idea of transgenderism, because throughout history males have been telling females they're irrational, confused or their wishes don't count.

Transgenderism can't exist because men stereotype women?
Are you trying to ban it or saying it doesnt exist?

And don't pretend you speak for all or even most women. You speak for you.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

But that never happens. Maybe somewhere, once upon a time, it might have happened once. When it does, it would be one of those proverbial "man bites dog" stories.





And this makes perfect sense, except that it misses one tiny point.

In a locker room, exactly what is "outward" changes.

It would be clothing and hair, etc so I understand the trepidation. Considering they are trying to live as their new sex they are hardly likely to do a dance on a bench. They are more likely to use a cubicle or keep a towel round them I would imagine.

It all depends on if you are a person who stares at others genitals in a locker room. TBH I ignore everyone and I thought everyone else did too. Being naked with strangers is creepy regardless of who has what bits.

If I was in fear of someone with different genitals to me seeing me I would go into a cubicle.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Just out of curiosity, why don't they want to be outed?

"I'm a woman and proud of it! I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan!"

Honest question -I'm not being flippant or anything.

Seems to me a woman who decides to be a man would very much want to be honest about her journey, if only because she might convince other men she would have an insight into "what women want" which most men claim they can't figure out.

Why is it a secret?

Because they want to be seen as a woman. Not a 'woman who used to be a man'.

 

[DragonLady]

If a business decides there's more money in catering to "whites only" types than minorities, then what?

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

Then I suppose we can discuss that.

But when the south was segregated, I believe* most businesses had separate facilities for blacks. To not do so would've cost far more revenue than installing them did.

*Again, if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will be quick to let me know.

 

[DragonLady]

Transgenderism can't exist because men stereotype women?
Are you trying to ban it or saying it doesnt exist?

And don't pretend you speak for all or even most women. You speak for you.

You may never agree with me on this topic or any other, and that is fine.

But, for the last time, I respectfully ask you not to mischaracterize my posts. If you do it again, I'll ignore you thereafter.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Then I suppose we can discuss that.

But when the south was segregated, I believe* most businesses had separate facilities for blacks. To not do so would've cost far more revenue than installing them did.

*Again, if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will be quick to let me know.

Depends on how much they viewed the merit of serving blacks. A lot of them for example did not, resturants would sell food to blacks but not serve them for example. See the sit ins as examples of that.

Banks of course have long institutions of red lining areas to keep blacks out. THen of course there were all the constructions like Levittown that wouldn't sell houses to blacks.

Look up the history of Block Busting when you could make a mint by having a black woman walk her child around a neighborhood and buy the houses for a song and sell them to blacks for a big profit.

For business decisions it all comes to will serving blacks cost you more sales than it generates. For more modern times look at the problems black people have getting accepted as short term renters on airbnb.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

You may never agree with me on this topic or any other, and that is fine.

But, for the last time, I respectfully ask you not to mischaracterize my posts. If you do it again, I'll ignore you thereafter.

You said it was an argument against the whole idea of transgenderism. It seemed like you were saying it didn't exist. How did I mischaracterise your post by asking for clarification?

 

[Matthew Best]

But when the south was segregated, I believe* most businesses had separate facilities for blacks. To not do so would've cost far more revenue than installing them did.

Is this the good old days that we're trying to get back to?

 

[sylvan8798]

Pretty frightening?

If we do exactly what we have done ever since someone first hung signs that said "men" and "women" outside of a public restroom?

Signs don't enforce anything, as evidenced by the fact that transgender individuals have been using the "wrong" restrooms for years.

 

[DragonLady]

I thought we had gotten so far when you admitted TG people will use the bathroom that corresponds to their appearance and no one will be any the wiser. No problems. *sigh*

I thought we got somewhere when you seemed to recognize that people of both sexes in both bathrooms didn't leave anyone any safer.

First bit : Grouping people together always seems to end up with prejudice to me. All Jews are greedy, all men are rapists, women can't fo maths. I don't know about you but none of my conversations are dependant on claiming that an entire group is one way.

I haven't claimed an entire group is one way, either. To say that one group is statistically more likely to act a particular way, is not the same as saying every member of that group acts that way.

You keep acting like language is being destroyed. As if calling someone with a Y chromosome Miss will make eveything that falls out of your mouth turn to mush. It's possible you already have without knowing it. Which social bonds are broken by that? Why were the so weak in the first place?

Again; a mischaracterization. It has nothing to do with calling someone "miss". It has to do trying to make intelligent conversation without possibly offending anybody, anywhere, and seeing the subsequent train wrecks when ever the topic is derailed over the choice of words used to present it.

Second bit : Everytime you insist that feeling female doesn't mean anything you are arguing with them.

You lost me.

Third bit : If we get rid of all this Men are doctors and engineers and Women are Mummies who are bad at maths stereotypes? Yes. I don't know why these differences came about. Women were considered physically and mentally fragile for a long time. Are you implying that they were being treated that way because they were?

IIRC, the strongest 2% of women are only as strong as the weakest 2% of men. Yes; I'd say we women are physically more fragile.

However, I have no idea whether we're "mentally fragile" compared to men, or if there is even any data one way or the other. I do know that more women attempt suicide (although more men are successful) if that is any indication of anything.

Fourth bit : You know what I meant. How does gender affect how you think of day to day things. Do women see a tomato and immediately start thinking of recipies? Do men look at it and just start honking it like a boob?

It doesn't. I wasn't raised to see "gender" in any object, so I just don't think that way. When I think of tomatoes, I think of red, round fruit with seeds. There's no "gender" until I stop to ponder the question more deeply, then I probably lean toward female because it's a fruit -a ripened ovary. But that still doesn't make me think "female" when I return to the subject later.

But I have no idea what men think.

/aside:
I asked my son what came to his mind when he thought of tomatoes as he walked by, and he said "apples".

Fifth, sixth and seventh : I don't specifically feel either gender. Or sex really. I am me. I don't lump people together by eye or skin colour either. I am also able to entertain the possibility that a state of mind exists without experiencing it. Like knowing homosexuality exists without being gay. I don't advocate seperating people based on something harmless which is beyond their control.

Okay. I'll have to think about that for a while. I do know I think sex and gender play a far larger role in both character and personality than eye color, and I think skin color influences the way people are treated (more than eye color) so I believe it might play a role in character and personality development, but can't say.

If all other factors were equal, I think any differences caused by skin color would probably be about equal to eye color.

Eighth (is that right it looks weird?) : My friends have told me the gender they prefer. All match up with their physical characteristics except my one non-binary one. It doesn't affect how we treat each other. Nor should it.

Yes; eighth is spelled right.

Okay.... Do you all share the same bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, etc.?

Ninth : The obsession with this difference is extreme though. If someone showed you stats saying black people or people of a certain age range are more violent would you want to be seperate from them too?

Not necessarily. But I would certainly be a bit more wary.

"Men with hawk noses are convicted of violent crimes twice as often as those with other nose shapes" would at least cause me to pause if I suddenly found myself alone in an isolated area with a man with that feature.

Being aware of those kinds of things is just prudent.

Tenth : I'm not going to treat people differently based on something so trivial as whether they can pee standing up or impregnate someone. I don't know who told you you had to. To me that is like seperating people who can wiggle their ears or curl their tongue. And your focus on the penis as a weapon is the root of our disagreement. Hands are a weapon. Feet, teeth, elbows. Is the penis the epitome of bodily weapons?
Yes.

Someone hitting and kicking is in no way, IMO, comparable to someone violating you internally. I know that sometimes people rape with objects or with other body parts, and that is *almost* as bad (worse if the object itself does damage, like a broken bottle or something), but (turkey basters aside)only a penis can leave me carrying a pregnancy or disease from my rapist.

Your talking about discrimination. Socially and culturally people weren't allowed to vote without a penis. Since you think the social factor has some kind of rational purpose would you mind explaining it?

Yes; but I'll leave it for another post.

And why does it matter what people used to do? Society is never static, it always changes. Like the voting thing. Or abolishing slavery. I understand that change is scary but my fear of change shouldn't hold others in place.

I wish you had quoted the relevant bits here, because I have no idea what this is alluding to. I'll try to return to it later.

Next : You can't know how someone else feels objectively. We can all agree on what chromosomes people have but there has been little agreement on the mind. Objectively there is no such thing as a male or female brain. Physically, they are slightly different but when it comes to functioning we all have a bit of a mix.

Then why do I keep hearing how confused and irrational I am?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

When it comes to TG brains they seem to be more similar physically to their preferred gender even before any treatment.

As I understand it, there's still a lot of debate about that.

You need to look deep inside yourself and figure out why your TG examples include bugs in food and murder.

Another mischaracterization (just can't help yourself, huh?), but I'll answer:

Because I was asked for an apt analogy, and tried to provide one.

I'm not sure you realize just how much some people do not want to see the body parts of the opposite sex, or do not want their children to. I don't always agree with their hard boundaries, but I do try to respect them. Once again, transgendered individuals want their lifestyles to be respected, but so does every one else, and sometimes the two are mutually exclusive with no real compromise possible.

[/quote]
In any case this would be more like Bill the murderer asking to be called Billie.[/QUOTE]

Sorry; you've lost me.

 

[DragonLady]

Depends on how much they viewed the merit of serving blacks. A lot of them for example did not, resturants would sell food to blacks but not serve them for example. See the sit ins as examples of that.

Banks of course have long institutions of red lining areas to keep blacks out. THen of course there were all the constructions like Levittown that wouldn't sell houses to blacks.

Look up the history of Block Busting when you could make a mint by having a black woman walk her child around a neighborhood and buy the houses for a song and sell them to blacks for a big profit.

For business decisions it all comes to will serving blacks cost you more sales than it generates. For more modern times look at the problems black people have getting accepted as short term renters on airbnb.

Yeah; okay, I can see that, especially the bolded part.

 

[zooterkin]

A man in a woman's restroom is highly unlikely to be transgendered, because genuinely transgendered people are still pretty rare. One is far more likely to encounter a sexual predator than to encounter a transgendered person.

I'd be interested to see if there are figures to back that up. I met more transgendered people the other weekend than I've met sexual predators, but obviously that's not a valid comparison.

According to a very quick google search, in the USA there are about 400,000 registered sex offenders, while there are about 1.4 million people who identify as transgender.

 

[DragonLady]

I'd be interested to see if there are figures to back that up. I met more transgendered people the other weekend than I've met sexual predators, but obviously that's not a valid comparison.

According to a very quick google search, in the USA there are about 400,000 registered sex offenders, while there are about 1.4 million people who identify as transgender.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


I'll have to read through that....

 

[sylvan8798]

I'm not sure you realize just how much some people do not want to see the body parts of the opposite sex, or do not want their children to. I don't always agree with their hard boundaries, but I do try to respect them. Once again, transgendered individuals want their lifestyles to be respected, but so does every one else, and sometimes the two are mutually exclusive with no real compromise possible.

Sometimes the answer isn't a compromise.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I thought we got somewhere when you seemed to recognize that people of both sexes in both bathrooms didn't leave anyone any safer.
.

It has already been that way and it hasnt put anyone in any more danger..[/QUOTE]


I haven't claimed an entire group is one way, either. To say that one group is statistically more likely to act a particular way, is not the same as saying every member of that group acts that way.



Again; a mischaracterization. It has nothing to do with calling someone "miss". It has to do trying to make intelligent conversation without possibly offending anybody, anywhere, and seeing the subsequent train wrecks when ever the topic is derailed over the choice of words used to present it.

.[/QUOTE] As long as you attempt to use a persons preferred pronoun it is ok. Nobody with any sense could begrudge you a few slip ups and it is ok to ask questions. People on both sides sometimes get offended when no offense is intended.[/QUOTE]


You lost me.



IIRC, the strongest 2% of women are only as strong as the weakest 2% of men. Yes; I'd say we women are physically more fragile.

However, I have no idea whether we're "mentally fragile" compared to men, or if there is even any data one way or the other. I do know that more women attempt suicide (although more men are successful) if that is any indication of anything.

.[/QUOTE] Suicide is not a weakness. .[/QUOTE]

It doesn't. I wasn't raised to see "gender" in any object, so I just don't think that way. When I think of tomatoes, I think of red, round fruit with seeds. There's no "gender" until I stop to ponder the question more deeply, then I probably lean toward female because it's a fruit -a ripened ovary. But that still doesn't make me think "female" when I return to the subject later.

But I have no idea what men think.

/aside:
I asked my son what came to his mind when he thought of tomatoes as he walked by, and he said "apples".

.[/QUOTE] I didn't mean the tomato could be viewed as a male or a female . I was asking if you think males and females percieve everyday things in drastically different ways.

Apples made me laugh
.[/QUOTE]

Okay. I'll have to think about that for a while. I do know I think sex and gender play a far larger role in both character and personality than eye color, and I think skin color influences the way people are treated (more than eye color) so I believe it might play a role in character and personality development, but can't say.

If all other factors were equal, I think any differences caused by skin color would probably be about equal to eye color.



Yes; eighth is spelled right.

Okay.... Do you all share the same bathrooms, locker rooms, showers, etc.?

.[/QUOTE] We've never been in that situation but would probably be ok changing in front of each other. And as long as there are cubicles the bathroom and shower would be fine.
.[/QUOTE]
Not necessarily. But I would certainly be a bit more wary.

"Men with hawk noses are convicted of violent crimes twice as often as those with other nose shapes" would at least cause me to pause if I suddenly found myself alone in an isolated area with a man with that feature.

Being aware of those kinds of things is just prudent.

Tenth : I'm not going to treat people differently based on something so trivial as whether they can pee standing up or impregnate someone. I don't know who told you you had to. To me that is like seperating people who can wiggle their ears or curl their tongue. And your focus on the penis as a weapon is the root of our disagreement. Hands are a weapon. Feet, teeth, elbows. Is the penis the epitome of bodily weapons?
Yes.

Someone hitting and kicking is in no way, IMO, comparable to someone violating you internally. I know that sometimes people rape with objects or with other body parts, and that is *almost* as bad (worse if the object itself does damage, like a broken bottle or something), but (turkey basters aside)only a penis can leave me carrying a pregnancy or disease from my rapist.



Yes; but I'll leave it for another post.



I wish you had quoted the relevant bits here, because I have no idea what this is alluding to. I'll try to return to it later.

.[/QUOTE]It was about how we have been separate socially for a long time. Social customs change.
.[/QUOTE]
Then why do I keep hearing how confused and irrational I am?

.[/QUOTE]Because your argument is about the possible actions of people not affected by these laws. Criminals who are already breaking laws so this one would't affect them. You've agreed TG people aren't a danger and so people feel there should be no laws enacted to restrict them..[/QUOTE]

As I understand it, there's still a lot of debate about that.

.[/QUOTE] Not a lot. Science seems to be moving towards seeing gender as more of a spectrum, like sexuality..[/QUOTE]

Another mischaracterization (just can't help yourself, huh?), but I'll answer:

Because I was asked for an apt analogy, and tried to provide one.

I'm not sure you realize just how much some people do not want to see the body parts of the opposite sex, or do not want their children to. I don't always agree with their hard boundaries, but I do try to respect them. Once again, transgendered individuals want their lifestyles to be respected, but so does every one else, and sometimes the two are mutually exclusive with no real compromise possible.

.[/QUOTE] To be fair those examples seemed odd. Mainly beacause I don't feel that you are disgusted by TG people. Just that you aren't sure what it really is.

I think we can both agree that the compromise would be cubicles. Person who looks female walks into cubicle then leaves in a different outfit. No one is any the wiser. Everyone is respected. Correct me if I'm wrong.
.[/QUOTE]

[/quote]
In any case this would be more like Bill the murderer asking to be called Billie.[/QUOTE]

Sorry; you've lost me.[/QUOTE]

Your example was a murderer asking not to be treated as a murderer. That is nowhere near what anyone is asking for. I was saying it would be like Bill the murderer (male) asking to be called Billie the murderer (female).

I think I've totally mucked up the quotes but I hope this is passable.

 

[DragonLady]

You've agreed TG people aren't a danger and so people feel there should be no laws enacted to restrict them..[/

Sorry to cherry pick, post and run, but just wanna answer this real quick between chores in RL.

I don't think being transgendered makes someone dangerous.

However, I don't think being transgendered makes someone any more or less capable of being dangerous.

A dangerous person who becomes transgendered is still dangerous. I don't believe changing gender magically takes away any tendency toward violence, nor does it instill a violent disposition that wasn't there before.

 

[DragonLady]

Sometimes the answer isn't a compromise.

Okay.

Do you want to expand upon that?