Transgender man gives birth

[Delphic Oracle]

??? It's already done all over the country. When someone is adopted, or if a parent wasn't present to sign when the birth took place, their birth certificates are amended.

There's no reason for anyone to disagree with updating it for other relevant changes.

More specifically, they get an Amended Birth Certificate. That still doesn't change that a legislature could make it so only the original sex is the basis of judgement.

But as usual, all kinds of flak gets thrown up to not grapple with the issue the question raised.

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[sylvan8798]

If a transgender woman goes into a locker room labeled "men" she will feel uncomfortable. So, she would rather not be in that environment and would rather go to the locker room labeled "women". This discomfort on her part appears to be the only reason that she wishes to use the women's locker room rather than the men's locker room.

It isn't just some vague "discomfort". Transgender individuals are trying to LIVE as the opposite sex. If you are living as a woman, you use the women's facilities. Otherwise you are only partially living as a woman and partially as a man. In addition her status now becomes known to anyone present, possibly strangers who are inclined to do her harm or subject her to discrimination or abuse.

 

[Meadmaker]

You're the one who is so afraid of what might happen. Personally I don't see how you plan to enforce your segregation. The measures necessary could be pretty frightening don't you think? What would I be confused about?

Pretty frightening?

If we do exactly what we have done ever since someone first hung signs that said "men" and "women" outside of a public restroom?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

There are instances where a person might "cause discomfort" (nonsense) in either restroom. If "discomfort" necessitates removal, where do they go?

Still also wondering if there's an answer to whether someone feeling "uncomfortable" sharing facilities with another ethnicity is given the same consideration.

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[Roboramma]

It isn't just some vague "discomfort". Transgender individuals are trying to LIVE as the opposite sex. If you are living as a woman, you use the women's facilities. Otherwise you are only partially living as a woman and partially as a man. In addition her status now becomes known to anyone present, possibly strangers who are inclined to do her harm or subject her to discrimination or abuse.

Right, so they would rather use the women's facilities, because that would allow them to take on their gender identity more completely.

I still don't know how to weigh that against the feelings of the women who they will be sharing the room with.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

My post was not meant to convey that anything is inevitable.

I was conveying that:

A man in a woman's restroom is highly unlikely to be transgendered, because genuinely transgendered people are still pretty rare. One is far more likely to encounter a sexual predator than to encounter a transgendered person.

This doesn't make any sense. That there are more sexual predators than trans people, does not mean that allowing trans people to access facilities will increase the number of sexual predators.

Unless you're still claiming that people who are immoral and deranged enough to plan to rape a stranger in a public place are currently deterred by the idea that they don't belong in the ladies' room.

People have been, and will continue to be assaulted in washrooms, locker rooms and such, and making it more socially acceptable for anyone to walk in and out of them at any time, for any reason will not make them safer places for anyone. It may not make them any more dangerous, statistically, but it won't make them any safer, either.

Well, at least you've finally admitted this.

And the objective was never to increase general bathroom safety, but to allow transgender people to pee and poo like everyone else.

In a way, it would make bathrooms safer. Not forcing transmen who look like men but haven't had genital surgery to use the ladies' room and vice versa will decrease violence against trans people for either 'intruding in the wrong bathroom' or for having to out themselves af different.

 

[Meadmaker]

Is it ok if a woman pulls a camera out to get her jollies?

But that never happens. Maybe somewhere, once upon a time, it might have happened once. When it does, it would be one of those proverbial "man bites dog" stories.

But seriously, why should the behaviour of a few pervs change the way we treat TG people? They use the room that corresponds to their outward appearance.

And this makes perfect sense, except that it misses one tiny point.

In a locker room, exactly what is "outward" changes.

 

[DragonLady]

Still also wondering if there's an answer to whether someone feeling "uncomfortable" sharing facilities with another ethnicity is given the same consideration.

Okay; when the headlines read:

Women of race a sexually harass more women of race b than men do!

Then we'll talk about it.

In the meantime, more men sexually harass women than other women do, so ATM, ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I am not suffering trauma from rape. Every time I was afraid I was risk of being raped, I left the situation as calmly, quietly, and quickly as possible. Thankfully, that was good enough. But for countless others it has not been.

And why shouldn't the fear straight men have of being raped by gay men keep gay men out of locker rooms too?

 

[ponderingturtle]

And if I don't?

Do I then get to demand such person prove it?

If not, why not?

Why does -or why should- being transgendered trump basic safety concerns?

Because that is how society evolves. We already have being gay trumps safety concerns and have let homosexuals be teachers again in many states for example.

Safety concerns has a long history of being the excuse used to keep oppressed minorities down. It was safety concerns that drove a lot of lynchings for example, see Emmett Till.

 

[DragonLady]

Well, at least you've finally admitted this.

The jury is out, it seems. Googling it turns up plenty of cases of sexual assaults reported to be by "men in drag" or by "men claiming to be transgendered" and plenty of reports of assaults on those who are in drag or claiming to be transgendered. But, at this moment, I'm hard-pressed to read through most of the pages they appear on because they all seem biased one way or the other, and very few include links to their source documents.

I wouldn't rule out that this policy would make these spaces more dangerous. Since this is a relatively new social movement, there simply may not be enough data available right now.

And the objective was never to increase general bathroom safety, but to allow transgender people to pee and poo like everyone else.

Very early on in the thread there were several posts claiming that transgender people are "less safe" in the bathrooms of their biological gender, because it somehow makes them more likely to be "outed" and later assaulted. I haven't posted much to that end, because I don't know enough about it to agree or refute.

or for having to out themselves af different.

Just out of curiosity, why don't they want to be outed?

"I'm a woman and proud of it! I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan!"

Honest question -I'm not being flippant or anything.

Seems to me a woman who decides to be a man would very much want to be honest about her journey, if only because she might convince other men she would have an insight into "what women want" which most men claim they can't figure out.

Why is it a secret?

 

[DragonLady]

And why shouldn't the fear straight men have of being raped by gay men keep gay men out of locker rooms too?

Valid point; but how many straight men are really afraid of that? Genuinely, honestly afraid they wouldn't be able to defend themselves against a gay man who wanted to rape them?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Also, and perhaps I missed it, but where is the breaking point for not subjecting people to segregation?

0.3% is not enough, but 13.3% is (African-Americans).

So we've got it down to a 13% window, shouldn't be hard to pin down from there...

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They will never answer those questions you know. Because the percentage really isn't what is important.

 

[DragonLady]

They will never answer those questions you know. Because the percentage really isn't what is important.

I've already answered it. My answer was "when businesses start feeling like they're losing money by not providing facilities for those groups".

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why would you feel 'abused' if you urinate in a room which might contain a penis? Should the entire building be cleared of penises too? Is there an ideal penis-free radius here or is it the number of doors between them and your vagina that matters?

So confused.

She has been clear that in her world all transgender people need to use the men's room and if that makes them feel unsafe well her feelings of safety trump theirs because she is better than them.

 

[DragonLady]

She has been clear that in her world all transgender people need to use the men's room and if that makes them feel unsafe well her feelings of safety trump theirs because she is better than them.

I respectfully ask that you not intentionally mischaracterize my posts.

I don't do it to you; please don't do it to me.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Valid point; but how many straight men are really afraid of that? Genuinely, honestly afraid they wouldn't be able to defend themselves against a gay man who wanted to rape them?

Fewer than there used to be, but how prevalent does such a fear need to be for it to be catered to? You are treading close to getting into statistics and turning this into an argument about facts and not emotions. Your entire basis has been about emotions after all.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I've already answered it. My answer was "when businesses start feeling like they're losing money by not providing facilities for those groups".

So minorities never need protections, the ADA and civil rights laws are wrong from the start.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I respectfully ask that you not intentionally mischaracterize my posts.

I don't do it to you; please don't do it to me.

You have said that transmen and transwomen need to use the mens room if they appear to men male enough to make you feel uncomfortable or have a penis. There are legitimate safety concerns that presents that are not important to you compared to your feelings. So it is clear whose feelings count and who's do not.

This is an apt but uncharitable summary not a mischaracterization of your posts.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I've already answered it. My answer was "when businesses start feeling like they're losing money by not providing facilities for those groups".

If a business decides there's more money in catering to "whites only" types than minorities, then what?

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