To the skeptical community from a fellow atheist, who just so happens to be female.

[John Albert]

What the heck was that? Don't change? I am completely in the dark as to what the hell she's going on about. Then again people constantly think I'm a guy on here and no one treats me differently. Maybe she ought to stop talking about how she's a woman and "they" are men if she wants it to be a non issue. It wasn't even written very well.

I think it's because there's been a bit of talk lately about alleged rampant sexist attitudes in the "skeptic/atheist community," that make it unappealing or unwelcoming to women.

 

[Supernovae]

I think it's because there's been a bit of talk lately about alleged rampant sexist attitudes in the "skeptic/atheist community," that make it unappealing or unwelcoming to women.

We can't ignore nice and friendly responses (har har) that PZ is notorious for now can we?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/01/the-straw-woman-of-the-skeptical-movement/

 

[marplots]

What the heck was that? Don't change? I am completely in the dark as to what the hell she's going on about. Then again people constantly think I'm a guy on here and no one treats me differently. (snipped)

I still think you're a guy -- because you write with clarity and make a lot of sense.

 

[John Albert]

We can't ignore nice and friendly responses (har har) that PZ is notorious for now can we?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/01/the-straw-woman-of-the-skeptical-movement/

I have to admit I haven't followed that whole debate very closely. What did PZ Meyers say?

 

[technoextreme]

In all fairness in that same book there are half-naked men like the monk, and fully clothed bad-ass women like the cleric and the fighter. So it is not exactly a one sided portrayal of women having to show off flesh. Appealling to the sexual interests of your audience is not inherently sexist.

Nope. Every single female in that book is showing her breasts. A heavily armored person sex should be indistinguishable outside of the face. And yes there is something inherently sexist in a game where everyone is supposed to be baddasses the females get treated like sex objects.

I'm not denying individual happenings, but among the gaming circles I have been in for the past 20 years that is a pretty extreme and rare occurence. Most other gamers I know would kick out anyone who acted like that. It probably also helped that where I lived there were plenty of female gamers. By 1999 in our high school the cafeteria gaming group was probably about 2 to 1 male to female. Which isn't to say you had pretty bad experiences. That stuff definitely still does happen.

So you actually had the opportunity to play games which were 100% undeniable blatantly sexist like Dungeons and Dragons. Say what you want about the artwork which was pretty atrocious at least there aren't rules saying that women can't do everything men can.

 

[SOdhner]

So what you're saying then is that being uncomfortable is a barometer of sexism?

No, and I'm not really sure where you got that in my post. Lots of things can make people uncomfortable without being sexist, and something being sexist doesn't mean it will make any given person uncomfortable.

When i was growing up, my own mother let me know she hated me because i was a man.

Wow, that's pretty awful.

I've also had people threaten me on the internet that they would rape me with a blunt instrument because of my opinions.

Also awful, although not necessarily sexist unless you were being treated differently due to your gender. Mention of rape is not automatically a sexist threat, it depends on the context.

neither of which really led me to think of "sexism" in any form or fashion but maybe they probably should have

Well, certainly if your mother hated you just for your gender that's sexism. That doesn't change how *you* think of it of course, nor does it need to.

but i guess in my head i have a valid concern that sexism is too broad a paintbrush to describe the pain i went through with my mom as the same pain i experienced with some internet whacko.

Sexism is for sure a broad term since it includes a huge range of attitudes and actions, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting to get more specific to describe your personal feelings and experiences. Is someone forcing you to describe these things using the term 'sexism'? I'm confused as to what the problem is here.

thats why this whole discussion and this oddly "sound bitey" quote you made that i hear echo'd on skeptic blogs the internet over makes me sick to my stomach.

I don't know what you're referring to. I was just pointing out that the post seems to be attacking a straw man. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to point out examples.

That statement makes me uncomfortable

Duly noted.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Nope. Every single female in that book is showing her breasts. A heavily armored person sex should be indistinguishable outside of the face. And yes there is something inherently sexist in a game where everyone is supposed to be baddasses the females get treated like sex objects...

Like all these? (granted, mostly cartoons)...
http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

 

[Beerina]

I don't recall ever being told that I'm a bad person because I'm a guy.

I'm not seeing it, either. I've seen one or two tiffs going on, which have nothing to do with anything but those involved, and that's about it. Meanwhile the rest of the world keeps rolling onward.

 

[Beerina]

The real question is whether she is hot or not. Without knowing that, there's just no way to evaluate her opinion.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/493715

Lessee what happens...

 

[Soapy Sam]

What the heck was that? Don't change? I am completely in the dark as to what the hell she's going on about. Then again people constantly think I'm a guy on here and no one treats me differently. Maybe she ought to stop talking about how she's a woman and "they" are men if she wants it to be a non issue. It wasn't even written very well.

You are no more confused than I.
I have no clue who the poster is*, or what , really the post is about.
If it is a post.

Simple explanation, someone?
* I Googled. She is a photographer and model. I take it she is well known in the States?

truethat- the uncertainty over sex/age etc online is an old story. In my early days on this forum I found it difficult not knowing if I was "conversing" with a forty year old man or a fourteen year old girl, but eventually I got used to that and stopped worrying about it. It can be liberating, in a way. If that's you in the avatar, you look quite female. Or I'm gayer than I thought.

 

[dropzone]

I Googled. She is a photographer and model. I take it she is well known in the States?

Nope. But she's hot enough that I can confidently dismiss her opinions to myself while pretending I agree with her.

Really, I find it somewhat ironic that a person who takes and models for erotic photos doesn't like being seen as a "sex object." (haven't heard or used that term for decades)

truethat- the uncertainty over sex/age etc online is an old story. In my early days on this forum I found it difficult not knowing if I was "conversing" with a forty year old man or a fourteen year old girl, but eventually I got used to that and stopped worrying about it. It can be liberating, in a way. If that's you in the avatar, you look quite female. Or I'm gayer than I thought.

There are people I've known online for nearly twelve years and I have no idea of their gender or age.

 

[truethat]

I think it's because there's been a bit of talk lately about alleged rampant sexist attitudes in the "skeptic/atheist community," that make it unappealing or unwelcoming to women.

Womenses tend to be possies when it comes to just talking about things. People get offended. So I think the "alternative" to that is say that you are not quite so sensitive.

However this "Look at me I'm like a guy you can tell me all day how you want to jam me up my guava!" comes across as completely insecure, gonna strap on a pair of ken doll balls and pretend I'm down with the homies. Last I checked guys didn't high five each other and talk sex on an atheist forum.

I still think you're a guy -- because you write with clarity and make a lot of sense.

Aww, you like me.....you really like me....Sniffles. (see!)

You are no more confused than I.
I have no clue who the poster is*, or what , really the post is about.
If it is a post.

Simple explanation, someone?
* I Googled. She is a photographer and model. I take it she is well known in the States?

truethat- the uncertainty over sex/age etc online is an old story. In my early days on this forum I found it difficult not knowing if I was "conversing" with a forty year old man or a fourteen year old girl, but eventually I got used to that and stopped worrying about it. It can be liberating, in a way. If that's you in the avatar, you look quite female. Or I'm gayer than I thought.

It's one thing for people to be confused. But I've had people insist I'm a guy. In fact I've been banned from a few sites because they don't believe I'm a woman. They thought I was a troll pretending to be a woman. This off boring gossip sites and other such places.

I've also been told that I'm a "closet Christian" an idiot and a troll. I'll claim the idiot part. But the rest is all wrong.

When I had my old avatar it made it even worse. Now I'm going to go back to my old avatar just to make your post very confusing to people who haven't read it yet.

 

[marplots]

Nope. Every single female in that book is showing her breasts. A heavily armored person sex should be indistinguishable outside of the face. (rest snipped)

Men wear breast plates. If we had breasts we wouldn't need to wear them. This is just armor 101. Plus, you might have to nurse a child during battle.

 

[technoextreme]

Men wear breast plates. If we had breasts we wouldn't need to wear them. This is just armor 101. Plus, you might have to nurse a child during battle.

You really don't know how armor works do you? Most armor that women are typically shown as wearing will direct the blow straight into their heart. The armor that men use will deflect it away typically. Also, I've heard that the booplate armor in fencing is uncomfortable to the point where women will just tape their breasts down and wear the men equivalent.

Like all these? (granted, mostly cartoons)...
http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

Yeah I cringed too because that is what I thought of when I read the thing that resulted in this whole blow up.

However this "Look at me I'm like a guy you can tell me all day how you want to jam me up my guava!" comes across as completely insecure, gonna strap on a pair of ken doll balls and pretend I'm down with the homies. Last I checked guys didn't high five each other and talk sex on an atheist forum.

I posted that on a completely different forum and someone actually said the same thing. Its pretty much kicking to the dirt anyone with grievances in an attempt to gain favor with the larger group.

 

[epepke]

Gee, I hope that we don't have to go through all that Elevatorgate crap again. For those who didn't follow it and are masochists, I wrote a timeline. It's at http://theismatheism.blogspot.com/2011/07/elevatorgate-timeline.html It has addresses of some of the things that P.Z. Meyers said.

I don't understand the idea that this is a seldom seen viewpoint. Almost all of the blogs that disagreed with Watson, or at least the intelligent ones, were written by women. There are plenty of them, too.

Watson and her minions are loud, and for some strange reason Watson gets invited to speak at more conferences than she merits, but they are definitely in the minority, even if you only count women.

 

[The Norseman]

When I had my old avatar it made it even worse. Now I'm going to go back to my old avatar just to make your post very confusing to people who haven't read it yet.

Now that's just cold.












(I hope you waited long enough that he couldn't go back and edit his post.)

 

[marplots]

You really don't know how armor works do you? Most armor that women are typically shown as wearing will direct the blow straight into their heart. The armor that men use will deflect it away typically. Also, I've heard that the booplate armor in fencing is uncomfortable to the point where women will just tape their breasts down and wear the men equivalent.

It's true. Everything I know about armor I learned playing imaginary games with my friends. We looked in references for such things and rolled die. Once we got old enough to drink beer, the whole subject became academic.

On the other hand, I thought we were talking about fantasy role playing, not real armor. If it's real armor, I'm going with Kevlar and ceramic plates.-- boobs or no boobs. However, I think you shouldn't dismiss the ability to breast feed a child during battle. I see you dodged that significant point.

 

[monoman]

What a difference thread placement makes.

If this was in community, it would be over 10 pages by now!

 

[technoextreme]

I don't understand the idea that this is a seldom seen viewpoint. Almost all of the blogs that disagreed with Watson, or at least the intelligent ones, were written by women. There are plenty of them, too.

Watson and her minions are loud, and for some strange reason Watson gets invited to speak at more conferences than she merits, but they are definitely in the minority, even if you only count women.

Thats because she is in the majority. Once you start heading out of the skeptical movement you really seeing people slam the skeptical movement and praise Rebbecca. I've seen Dawkins been called a jackass. Radford a person who used psuedoscience to support his opinions which would have taken five minutes to realize how idiotic they. People called this women someone who was pretty misogynistic to try and endear herself to men.

 

[Tiktaalik]

You really don't know how armor works do you? Most armor that women are typically shown as wearing will direct the blow straight into their heart. The armor that men use will deflect it away typically. Also, I've heard that the booplate armor in fencing is uncomfortable to the point where women will just tape their breasts down and wear the men equivalent.

Yeah I cringed too because that is what I thought of when I read the thing that resulted in this whole blow up.

I posted that on a completely different forum and someone actually said the same thing. Its pretty much kicking to the dirt anyone with grievances in an attempt to gain favor with the larger group.

What's that Patty Hearst syndrome called when you start sympathizing with your oppressors?

Also - I wear body armor every day. I've never had anyone tell me I don't need to wear it because I have boobs. What do people think they're made of???

I think it would be interesting at TAM to have a bunch of women (and/or men) try & emulate the postures on eschergirls - just to show how ridiculous and impossible they actually are...(with more clothing, of course!).