The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior

[rocketdodger]

I realize now that most of the regulars on this forum are little people who come here waiting for poor souls like myself to make fun of. If this were not true, then I would have gotten genuine replies to my questions instead of just being made fun of.

I have tried to keep this discussion scientific and impersonal yet again and again these people have resorted to grade-school tactics. I suspect that most of you are just as phony as the woowoo people who come here. Rather than have a rational discussion you choose to make fun. What does it say about everything you stand for if you would rather call a person names than talk science with them? I just don't understand why any educated intelligent person would rather behave like a teenager than have a good discussion.

Maybe that is the plight of the unwavering skeptic? Since nothing is magical or even amazing to you, your life means nothing in your eyes? I understand, and I am sorry for you. This is what happens when people give up on hope. And it is apparent that most of you have done this. Even when faced with scientifically possible phenomenon, you are as quick as ever to shoot it all down. If the world was full of skeptics like some of you, we would still be using stone knives.

I am not a follower of what you so eloquently call "woowoo," but I still have hope that science and nature will continue to provide us with beautiful and amazing things. I have to believe that most of you don't want to live in a dark and dreary world where everything is either commonplace or impossible, with nothing in between, but based on what I have seen here, that is the choice alot of you make. Why?

Thus, I am leaving, goodbye, thanks to those of you who were respectful and polite, and to the rest, I guess you will probably be making fun of me for some time after I am gone, until another person comes in and you can start up on them. It seems like most of you are not only skeptical of paranormal stuff but also of decent human behavior.

I suspected this might happen, it is so hard to find decent people anywhere these days, but thanks for confirming my doubts.

And to the few who were decent, like dredred and crimeresearch, thank you. If you are regulars here, perhaps you could teach the others how to act like a civil mature adult of the human species (an art that seems to be disappearing these days).

 

[thaiboxerken]

I realize now that most of the regulars on this forum are little people who come here waiting for poor souls like myself to make fun of. If this were not true, then I would have gotten genuine replies to my questions instead of just being made fun of.

Nonsense, only a few of us like making fun of the likes of you. You recieved several geniune replies. It's when you keep insisting on chasing this theory of superhuman powers that people really started to just "make fun of" you.

I have tried to keep this discussion scientific and impersonal yet again and again these people have resorted to grade-school tactics.

Hold on, you started a thread about how to develop superpowers and you dare equivocate us to grade-schoolers?

I suspect that most of you are just as phony as the woowoo people who come here. Rather than have a rational discussion you choose to make fun. What does it say about everything you stand for if you would rather call a person names than talk science with them? I just don't understand why any educated intelligent person would rather behave like a teenager than have a good discussion.

If you want to talk science, then talk science. Talking about superpowers is not a scientific topic.

Maybe that is the plight of the unwavering skeptic? Since nothing is magical or even amazing to you, your life means nothing in your eyes?

WTF is this?! Skeptics aren't amazed and don't find the universe magical? I think you are sadly mistaken. I'm a skeptic and I find many things amazing, the fact that I can watch Mt St Helens growing is amazing. I mean, I have seen a mountain grow. I've been to the Grand Canyon, and it's very amazing to know that it's still being bored out of the earth by that little river. My life means alot, in fact, I prize it at my most valuable possession.

I understand, and I am sorry for you. This is what happens when people give up on hope. And it is apparent that most of you have done this.

Ah, another anthem of the bleever. A great many believers in gods, pixies, fairies, chi, psychic and other nonsense feel sorry for us. The thing is, many skeptics do have hope. I have hope that someday humanity will shred their superstitions, for example. I have a great many different hopes, and I'm sure other skeptics do as well.

[quot] Even when faced with scientifically possible phenomenon, you are as quick as ever to shoot it all down. If the world was full of skeptics like some of you, we would still be using stone knives. [/quote]

It's one thing to dream, it's another to dwell on a scientific improbability. You haven't shown that this superhuman stund is scientifically possible at all, in fact, others have refuted your equations and science with good math and good science. The science world is full of skeptics, and we're doing just fine.

I am not a follower of what you so eloquently call "woowoo," but I still have hope that science and nature will continue to provide us with beautiful and amazing things. I have to believe that most of you don't want to live in a dark and dreary world where everything is either commonplace or impossible, with nothing in between, but based on what I have seen here, that is the choice alot of you make. Why?

You couldn't be more wrong in your assessment. You are a fool who just wants to hold himself higher than any who would dare criticise your silly hypothesis of superpowers. Well, screw you buddy. Skeptics come in many flavors, but I gather that most skeptics here do live in amazement and wonder of the REAL world. Heck, some of us actually like fiction. You seem to have a hard time differentiating the two.

Thus, I am leaving, goodbye, thanks to those of you who were respectful and polite, and to the rest, I guess you will probably be making fun of me for some time after I am gone, until another person comes in and you can start up on them. It seems like most of you are not only skeptical of paranormal stuff but also of decent human behavior.

I'm skeptical of what you call "decent human behavior", yes.

I suspected this might happen, it is so hard to find decent people anywhere these days, but thanks for confirming my doubts.

You're like the one A-hole in the crowd that thinks everyone else is an A-hole. Yet, we all seem to get along with each other well.

And to the few who were decent, like dredred and crimeresearch, thank you. If you are regulars here, perhaps you could teach the others how to act like a civil mature adult of the human species (an art that seems to be disappearing these days).

Maybe you'd like some chi's with that whine. Good riddence. Have fun at the rad ki forum.

 

[Flatworm]

The math

I thought I'd go ahead and crunch some numbers for the "10 story fall" idea. Yes, this is what I do at 11:00 on a Thursday night (sob).

Let's try to figure out what kind of moment (torque) is required at the knees of a person trying to absorb the full impact of a 25m fall with their leg muscles.

Obviously, the legs must start flexed or the full impact will be taken on the bones in a very tiny span of time. Let's assume a starting flexion of 5 degrees from the vertical. Let's model each leg as two 0.4m rigid poles, coming together at the knee joint. Let's allow the legs to start 5 degrees from the vertical and end 90 degrees from the vertical (standing with legs flexed to an impossible crouch).

It's easier to approach the problem from an energy standpoint. The work done on the body by the legs as the knees flex from 170 degrees of opening to 0 degrees must equal the kinetic energy of the falling body.

let's take the figure of 22.5m/s as the velocity on impact, and assume a mass of 70kg, we have a kinetic energy of 15 187.5 J, or round off to 15 kJ.

I don't have any tools for posting the equations here, but in summary I started with the integral for work (force times displacement), did a change of variable substituting the angle of the leg for the displacement, and integrated over the stroke of the leg. If the moment at the knee is constant, it works out to around 13 KNm. That means about 6500 Nm per knee. Ouch.

edit:

BTW, I really don't think it's worth the effort to set up a numerical integration or finite element anaylsis here (that seems to be what rocketdodger is talking about, as opposed to discrete math). The classical integration is not all that hard.

 

[voidx]

I realize now that most of the regulars on this forum are little people who come here waiting for poor souls like myself to make fun of. If this were not true, then I would have gotten genuine replies to my questions instead of just being made fun of.

You received many genuine replies to your questions. In fact if you read the thread from start to finish you move the goal posts constantly until you are forced to give them up. Ashles and newdrkitten went to great lengths to do the basic math for you, showing that the muscles, tendons and bones of the legs (your original claim) could not withstand the force unharmed. You then moved goalposts to the "body" or internal organs" being unharmed. This is a different claim entirely, but still one with doubt cast upon it by Ashles and newdrkitten's earlier comments.

You then attempted a "let bygones be bygones, agree to disagree" approach which you must admit is rather disingenious, and shows that you really weren't very willing to get into a full on scientific discussion of the topic you started.

As for those that made fun of you, well on some level I can't blame them. Your behaviour towards the end is merely easy justification for their behaviour, so congrats on adding wood to the fire.

I have tried to keep this discussion scientific and impersonal yet again and again these people have resorted to grade-school tactics.

Then ignore these people (there is a function for this) and discuss with those you seem to think are being reasonable. I noticed at the end that you did not include Ashles and newdrkitten as those posters who are "nice". I'd argue they were honest in answering your question, so are they excluded perhaps because they disagreed, convincingly with you? Who you converse with is your choice. Its an easy out taken by many people before you and I'm sure by many people to follow.

I suspect that most of you are just as phony as the woowoo people who come here. Rather than have a rational discussion you choose to make fun. What does it say about everything you stand for if you would rather call a person names than talk science with them? I just don't understand why any educated intelligent person would rather behave like a teenager than have a good discussion.

Tsk Tsk, careful with those personal attacks.

Maybe that is the plight of the unwavering skeptic? Since nothing is magical or even amazing to you, your life means nothing in your eyes? I understand, and I am sorry for you. This is what happens when people give up on hope. And it is apparent that most of you have done this.

And there it is, one of the most common put-downs for us "skeptics". The entire universe is magical and amazing to us. Science is amazing to us, all the things we do not yet know are amazing to us. But why use the world magical? Why not mysterious instead? Save your pity, we're perfectly alright.

Even when faced with scientifically possible phenomenon, you are as quick as ever to shoot it all down.

You mean the one you were forced to give up on account of Ashles and newdrkitten?

I also do martial arts, the oft forgotton western or european arts. Long sword, sword and buckler, rapier, great sword, staff, poleaxe, and old time grappling. In all aspects its extremely similiar to eastern martial arts, the body only moves in certain ways afterall. Yet while not completely missing, there is a noticable lack of anything mystical in the european martial arts. Its efficiency of time and movement of energy. Breaking a brick on your head isn't particularily useful when no one is attacking you with bricks. All modern martial arts take various paths back to being related to techinques that were indeed meant to harm and to kill, however far some of them may have strayed. In short, much of the mysticism has no, and has never had any practical application in the arts themselves. Their merely different ways of accounting for the results of simple body mechanics.

 

[crimresearch]

"I realize now that most of the regulars on this forum are little people who come here waiting for poor souls like myself to make fun of. If this were not true, then I would have gotten genuine replies to my questions instead of just being made fun of."

Given that you have been working so hard to avoid discussing the topic with people who gave you genuine replies, and you have chosen to falsely state otherwise, it is a logical assumption that you have nothing to contribute to a legitimate discussion.

Adding in your obvious ignorance of the martial arts, as revealed by your mistatements about them, and I think you have pretty much earned the reception you got.

 

[IXP]

There is another way to look at the 10 story fall. In order to provide an acceleration of 40g, the leg muscles would have to exert a force equal to 40 times the weight of the falling future corpse. Show me someone who can squat 40 times their weight and I will start to believe it might be conceivable.

Yet another way to look at it: I assume that most of the energy would have to be absorbed by the action of the leg muscles. Lets assume that it is half of the total energy absorbed. Supplying this amount of energy from a thrust of leg muscles would enable one to jump to the top of a 5 story building.

Neither of these skills would require the impossible timing, only the exertion of the required force, and no one can come even close to performing them.

IXP

 

[IXP]

"Can they?
You might want to pick a better example. Baseball bats break from being hit with a small leather ball thrown by one arm....breaking them with a shin kick (as TB can attest) is not even close to paranormal.

The bat is not broken by the force of the thrown ball alone, it is broken by the combined energy of the thrown ball and the swung bat, most coming from the bat itself, I would guess. And even then, they break only rarely.

IXP

 

[Ashles]

I knew it! I just friggin knew it!

The old, old song is sung once again. Well Ken answered excellently above, but as I have already spent a bit of time on this thread I'm going to add my comments, een though it appears rocketdodger has run away.

I realize now that most of the regulars on this forum are little people who come here waiting for poor souls like myself to make fun of. If this were not true, then I would have gotten genuine replies to my questions instead of just being made fun of.

You got many, many genuine replies to your comments, despite your continued goalpost moving.
First your ten story claim was true and possible. Then it wasn't possible but your legs would survive. Then it was possible again. Then it became the ludicrous "Assume we had a million strong healthy people, who have been conditioning themselves for the very task for some time, years even. I contend that at least one out of that million would be able to survive the fall unharmed"

I repeatedly anwered your questions politely and sensibly, and then mocked this last viewpoint because of how terribly unscientific it is at heart. hardly a reason to throw your toys out of the pram and stomp off.

But don't worry we do see this a lot. Peple have many personal pet theories or claims that, when brought up on these forums, often do not hold up to scrutiny. Their subsequent behaviour then proves interesting.
Some, like Beth, hang around and continue posting, despite some of us occasionally finding some of her claims rather silly and saying so. I respect Beth greatly for that. She is a highly intelligent poster and, while we don't always agree with her, she is an interesting debater.

Others don't like being disagreed with and storm off. I'm afraid you haven't quite potrayed the cool, calm dispassionate persona you seemed to have wanted to.

The conversation was moving on to Biofeedback, yet you didn't even wait around long enough to comment. Was it really my mockery of your Argument by Population of China? Or was it my request for evidence about biofeedback control? I guess we'll never know.

I have tried to keep this discussion scientific and impersonal yet again and again these people have resorted to grade-school tactics.

This is the adult world. If you say something silly, expect to have it criticised or mocked. If you can't cope with that then and have to stomp off in a huff then who is acting like the grade-schooler?

My comment was hardly abusive or personal. How thin skinned are you?

I suspect that most of you are just as phony as the woowoo people who come here.

Ah, out come the ad homs...

Rather than have a rational discussion you choose to make fun. What does it say about everything you stand for if you would rather call a person names than talk science with them? I just don't understand why any educated intelligent person would rather behave like a teenager than have a good discussion.

Well I assume this doesn't apply to me as I have exclusively talked science and maths except for one post.

Maybe that is the plight of the unwavering skeptic? Since nothing is magical or even amazing to you, your life means nothing in your eyes?

Oh before you leave, you appear to have left this giant strawman. Do you have a forwarding address we can send him to?

I understand, and I am sorry for you. This is what happens when people give up on hope. And it is apparent that most of you have done this.

Oh this is too stupid for words. We have given up on hope because we disagree that a man can jump ten stories and land unharmed?

Are you sure you are not still in your teens?

Even when faced with scientifically possible phenomenon, you are as quick as ever to shoot it all down. If the world was full of skeptics like some of you, we would still be using stone knives.

Try the other way around. Some people would be saying "We can make knives from leaves - I heard it somewhere" and get all cross if anyone disagreed.
Maybe they would also accuse the knife-leaf naysayers of having given up on life.

I am not a follower of what you so eloquently call "woowoo," but I still have hope that science and nature will continue to provide us with beautiful and amazing things. I have to believe that most of you don't want to live in a dark and dreary world where everything is either commonplace or impossible, with nothing in between, but based on what I have seen here, that is the choice alot of you make. Why?

Please get over your little temper tantrum. People have disagreed with you and given good reasons why. Don't you think all this tragic melodrama about 'giving up on life' and 'wanting to live in a dark and dreary world' is a little childish?

Thus, I am leaving, goodbye, thanks to those of you who were respectful and polite, and to the rest, I guess you will probably be making fun of me for some time after I am gone, until another person comes in and you can start up on them. It seems like most of you are not only skeptical of paranormal stuff but also of decent human behavior.

Yup, this last post of yours has been a paragon of respect and decency.
I guess we'll live.

I suspected this might happen, it is so hard to find decent people anywhere these days, but thanks for confirming my doubts.

Wow, who's the cynic here?

And to the few who were decent, like dredred and crimeresearch, thank you. If you are regulars here, perhaps you could teach the others how to act like a civil mature adult of the human species (an art that seems to be disappearing these days).

What great words from Captain Ad Hom.

If you ever feel like returning and answering questions about biofeedback laims, drop in anytime. (I know you're reading this )

 

[chillzero]

Wow.
And this all merits a complaint on the admin board as well - a complaint which blames the JRef: not us non-JRef-employed, global users of the Forum, for how unfairly this poster feels they were treated.

I was beginning to think for a while that I had been overly cynical to be so uneasy at first, but then the conversation broke down for no reason I can quite determine. It seems to me that this is a good thread, with some good discussion and advice. But the poster doesn't seem willing to discuss anything that disagrees with their unvalidated statements.

My feeling is still that at best this is a teenager who has been maybe dabbling with martial arts for a short time and is frustrated because they haven't yet learned to fly across a lake, run across treetops, walk into buildings by busting through the walls with their bare hands, and all those other things we see Jackie Chan, Michelle Yeoh, Jet Li and so on do.

 

[delphi_ote]

My feeling is still that at best this is a teenager who has been maybe dabbling with martial arts for a short time and is frustrated because they haven't yet learned to fly across a lake, run across treetops, walk into buildings by busting through the walls with their bare hands, and all those other things we see Jackie Chan, Michelle Yeoh, Jet Li and so on do.

And I have to re-iterate that he came to a SKEPTIC forum asking how it could be done. Why? Why in a million years would you think the secrets of "The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior" would be found in the forum of an 80 year old cranky ex-stage performer? Does rocketdodger just stop anyone on the street and say "Excuse me, do you know how I can find the ultimate secret of martial arts?" "Sir, I would like to jump off a 10 story building. Can you teach me how?"

 

[crimresearch]

The bat is not broken by the force of the thrown ball alone, it is broken by the combined energy of the thrown ball and the swung bat, most coming from the bat itself, I would guess. And even then, they break only rarely.

IXP

True...still, breaking them across one's shin isn't a paranormal event.

Abnormal maybe...

 

[Floating Egg]

Adults today seem to feel that they have the right to not be offended, and more often than not, being questioned is offensive.

 

[Mid]

All I can say is if he thinks this was uncivil, it's a good job he didn't join some of the threads in the politics, current events and social issues forum

 

[delphi_ote]

Adults today seem to feel that they have the right to not be offended, and more often than not, being questioned is offensive.

As a skeptic, I must question your claim.

adult n. one that has arrived at full development or maturity especially in size, strength, or intellectual capacity
-Merriam Webster's Medical Dictionary

As we have no way to measure the size or strength of a poster...

 

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

And I have to re-iterate that he came to a SKEPTIC forum asking how it could be done. Why? Why in a million years would you think the secrets of "The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior" would be found in the forum of an 80 year old cranky ex-stage performer? Does rocketdodger just stop anyone on the street and say "Excuse me, do you know how I can find the ultimate secret of martial arts?" "Sir, I would like to jump off a 10 story building. Can you teach me how?"

For some reason, rocketdodger wanted us to agree with him and entertain the possibility that this stuff could actually happen.

But those that replied are not cynical, sad people who sit in their dark basements all day making fun of things they don't understand, as rocketdodger would have everyone believe. The people who have replied are obviously well versed in mathematics, physics, or life long martial artists. I'd like to think that we can speak pretty well to this topic, and that we have.

The simple fact of the 'chi' matter is this: Who can jump the furthest, the longest, the highest in the world? Athletes. Olympic athletes, basketball players, etc, because that's all they do. Physical conditioning. Practice. Training. Nothing more. No mystery. No 'chi'.

 

[Rolfe]

Who can jump the furthest, the longest, the highest in the world? Athletes. Olympic athletes, basketball players, etc, because that's all they do. Physical conditioning. Practice. Training. Nothing more. No mystery. No 'chi'.

I was just thinking, if this hypothetical non-woo "perfect computer control over the body" was actually possible, what would you sensibly do with it? Not jump off tenth-floor window sills, methinks.

Then I was watching a match at Wimbledon, and it was obvious. An ace almost every time. Almost every shot going exactly where it's supposed to be placed. The world #1 tennis ranking is at your feet. Lots more money and lots more fun than jumping off buildings.

But the best normal, fallible human beings can do can be seen on BBC2 any afternoon next week.

Rolfe.

 

[richardm]

I was going to make a serious point, but I don't think I need to bother now. Instead, a Finbarr Saunders moment:

I know for a fact we can control the blood flow to all parts of the body, and I know we can change the way things feel

Fnarr! Fnarr!

 

[richardm]

The simple fact of the 'chi' matter is this: Who can jump the furthest, the longest, the highest in the world? Athletes. Olympic athletes, basketball players, etc, because that's all they do. Physical conditioning. Practice. Training. Nothing more. No mystery. No 'chi'.

And this is why things like 'chi' remain so popular, of course: they give the promise of all these terrific abilities without having to put in the huge amount of training that is otherwise required. Chi lets you think you can strip a lot of hard stuff from the equation.

Must be quite disappointing to discover that physical effort and willpower are the only way to get these skills.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's amazing that so many people think Chi gives people powers and amazing body control ability. I would think that if this were true, that most of the Olympic gold medals would go to China every time, that Chi masters would win martial arts tournaments often and that Chi practitioners would be among the top soldiers of the world. Yet, true "masters" of Chi tend to remain obscure and unknown. Perhaps it's to keep the super-deadly secrets of Chi away from the bad guys.

 

[delphi_ote]

The simple fact of the 'chi' matter is this: Who can jump the furthest, the longest, the highest in the world? Athletes. Olympic athletes, basketball players, etc, because that's all they do. Physical conditioning. Practice. Training. Nothing more. No mystery. No 'chi'.

Don't forget what an important role genetics plays in all that. So many of the things Olympic athletes and martial arts masters do would be impossible for me to do no matter how well I was trained.

Not trying to undermine their accomplishments, just trying to point out yet another way reality brings this nonsense crashing down. No matter how much I focus my chi, I will be 5'11" with grey/green eyes and an allergy to cats. There are limits on my body that no amount of focus or training or "Hardcore-ness" will change.