The Ultimate Unstoppable Chi Warrior

[rocketdodger]

Now that I have done my part and have at least brought into the realm of the possible a body surviving a 10 story drop, can we get back to the point of this thread?

Here let me restate what I wanted to talk about:

The human body can be pretty darn tough when it wants to be. I have seen people completely control their pain, break bricks over their temples, support themselves with only two fingers, break sticks over all conceivable places including throat and testicles, jump to amazing heights from a standstill, control their body temperature, etc etc the list goes on and on. It seems that we can get our bodies to be incredibly strong and we can almost totally control them using biofeedback of some sort.

I only brought up chi because that is a common visualization that people use to allow them to do these things. I DON'T QUITE THINK THIS "chi" IS SUPERNATURAL, so please don't just post stupid things that make fun of old kung fu movies.

I know there are alot of parlor tricks out there, but I also know that most of this stuff is legit. Every year I watch breaking competitions and I see real martial artists doing incredible things that are not tricks, it is real. I don't think its magic, I just think they are hardcore. But I want to know how they get that hardcore, that is why I am here.

 

[drkitten]

I am having trouble finding data on just how much force human bone and muscle can take before breaking. However, I did find out that the world record in the squat is about 450kg, which means about 4410 newtons of force. If we assume the legs have to support 35 kg on average, that means that a human can squat and stand up under over 12g conditions.

Are you seriously suggesting that a weight lifter who can lift 450kg
weighs only 70kg himself (35kg per leg)? If not, your assumption and calculations are somewhat questionable.

If you are, they're downright ludicrous.

I know pilots wear g-suits and sit in chairs. But that has nothing to do with their internal organs moving around. The g-suits simply keep their blood where it is supposed to be, and the chair just takes the strain away from their legs. Their bodies still have to internally withstand those forces, and they do. It is possible, plain and simple

I don't think you understand how g-suits work. G-suits work by applying pressure to the entire body to keep the blood from moving to the wrong places and pooling there. But the same pressure that keeps the blood in the right places also keeps the internal organs in the right places and distributes the structural load correctly across the entire body. Otherwise, the same shocks that would send all your blood into your feet might easily do the same with one of your floating ribs.

So the g-suit actually helps you "internally withstand those forces."

 

[delphi_ote]

Ok I did some preliminary calculations. I was wrong, you don't really need discrete math to do this, because we are assuming the deceleration will be constant.

Uh... discrete math?

"Discrete mathematics, sometimes called finite mathematics, is the study of mathematical structures that are fundamentally discrete, in the sense of not supporting or requiring the notion of continuity. Most, if not all, of the objects studied in finite mathematics are countable sets, such as the integers."
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_math

What, were you thinking you might to count the total number of permutations of quantum states of the electrons in the atoms surrounding the body on the way down and how that might influence the force of friction on the falling body?

Or maybe you're just pretending you've taken these math classes and have no idea what you're talking about...

 

[drkitten]

Now that I have done my part and have at least brought into the realm of the possible a body surviving a 10 story drop, can we get back to the point of this thread?

You have not.

I know there are alot of parlor tricks out there, but I also know that most of this stuff is legit. Every year I watch breaking competitions and I see real martial artists doing incredible things that are not tricks, it is real. I don't think its magic, I just think they are hardcore. But I want to know how they get that hardcore, that is why I am here.

By doing parlor tricks and then lying to you about their capacities.

For example, by saying first "If a person lands perfectly, using all available muscles to dampen the forces, they can withstand a 10 story fall landing on their feet unharmed," and then basing this claim on badly-done calculations and illegitimate extensions of experiments. If pushed, they will retreat to more nuanced statements like "a body surviving a 10 story drop," which is a completely different claim, one that is even provably true, but which has nothing to do with chi abilities and much more to do with luck and a person's ability to survive what would otherwise be lethal or crippling injuries.

Similarly, the ability to break an unbelievable number of boards seems truly hardcore until you realize that the boards are, first, soft pine, which is fairly easy to break, and second, often split with the grain instead of across it, which makes them so fragile that they must be handled with extreme care lest they break while the demo is being set up. I can easily treat a brick so that I can break it in half with a pencil.

Almost every time that someone competent has seriously investigated these so-called "breaking competitions" and whatnot, they've found either that the competitions were rigged (parlor tricks) or that the results are truly, mind-numbingly banal. Or, even more likely, that they never really happened, but that these abilities have become tales of a friend of a friend of the training
partner of my teachers's college roommate's ex-wife.

Again, the best evidence for this is the absence of "chi" abilities outside of martial arts demonstrations and dojos. I already pointed out that the ability to fall from 10 stories safely would make you the best-paid stuntman in Hollywood, and yet I'm supposed to believe that some "chi master" working out of a storefront can do it?

There was actually a legend in England (1830's) of "Spring-Heeled Jack," an inhuman-looking man who would commit crimes and then run away, escaping by -- what was your phrase? Oh, yes, "jump[ing] to amazing heights from a standstill" to the amazement of the pursuing police. Of course, this was before "chi" had been widely exported to the Western World. But with all the "chi" studies since then, why hasn't anyone been able to replicate it? More specifically, why doesn't anyone use this ability if they have it? Not all martial artists are pinnacles of honesty, and some would surely love the money they could get. They could also earn obscene amounts of money honestly (again, think of the stunt potentials, or the circus displays)-- or simply do good deeds for the good of all mankind such as rescuing people from burning buildings or getting cats out of trees.

 

[Ashles]

Now that I have done my part and have at least brought into the realm of the possible a body surviving a 10 story drop, can we get back to the point of this thread

Eh? When did that happen?

So far you have provided example of heavily structurally asisted pilots and someone who had injuries after their impact, who was protected by safety equipment and was not directly impacted.

You have stated
"I have said numerous times that I DONT think a person could ever do this!"
then say you have brought it
"into the realm of possiblity".

But let's say, for the moment, that we agree that the corpse's legs might survive the fall then let's move on to your next points.

The human body can be pretty darn tough when it wants to be. I have seen people completely control their pain, break bricks over their temples, support themselves with only two fingers, break sticks over all conceivable places including throat and testicles, jump to amazing heights from a standstill, control their body temperature, etc etc the list goes on and on. It seems that we can get our bodies to be incredibly strong and we can almost totally control them using biofeedback of some sort.

Quite a range of claims there from the likely to the unlikely.
But moving straight to the almost total control of our body claimed with biofeedback, what do you think can and can't be controlled by conscious will?

And do you have any evidence towards any of it?

 

[Ashles]

More specifically, why doesn't anyone use this ability if they have it?

If only there were some sort of international competition where they would measure things like how high and far you could jump.

If there were you'd expect these chi masters to win them all the time.

 

[LFTKBS]

I personally dont like how this topic has developped, so i wanted to answer just the original post in a different way, not to this gobledygook calculation chit chat that this one turned out to be, neither to your trollie actions and postings, sorry pal.

Oh, I'm so sorry about that, forum superstar "omegablue."

Let's change this to "General Gullibility and the Paranormal Which of Course Exists" so we don't have to bother with boring things like evidence or math.

 

[drkitten]

If only there were some sort of international competition where they would measure things like how high and far you could jump.

I wish I had thought to write that.

 

[crimresearch]

In that vein, the Miami football team has been training for years with a Chinese martial artist who uses Qi as a visualization to increase muscular coordination (more or less what I presume the OP is asking about), and their improvements have been miniscule...no jumping off buildings, etc.

 

[rocketdodger]

Lets just drop this 10 story fall thing OK? Let us agree to disagree. I think it is possible, you don't think it is possible, neither of us can prove totally that it is or isn't.

Assume we had a million strong healthy people, who have been conditioning themselves for the very task for some time, years even. I contend that at least one out of that million would be able to survive the fall unharmed (minus temporary injuries like bumps and bruises). The science of it says that it would be darn unlikely, but that certainly isn't "impossible," and that is all I said in the first place. That it is possible. So lets just drop it. Seriously, who would even try such a thing?

Moving on...

I don't know Ashles. I know for a fact we can control the blood flow to all parts of the body, and I know we can change the way things feel (for instance negating pain or other sensation), although the latter could just be some way of getting our mind to refuse to accept the stimulus rather than actually changing it. I also am pretty sure that a person, using proper visualizations, could psyche themselves into various states. The yoga masters talk about something called khundalini which is supposed to feel really good, so somehow they get themselves into that state.

What I have heard, but don't know for sure, is that metabolism can also be changed. This would mean actually being able to increase or lower body temperature rather than just changing blood flow. This seems kind of farfetched and might be dangerous if a person did it, but I don't rule it out, because scientifically it is possible.

drkitten- these are all things that I have seen and/or done myself. I have been a martial artist for a long time, and we do fully legitimate breaks on strong materials. I am not talking about the easy breaks, I am talking about hard ones, like breaking objects supported at only one end. I know half inch pine boards are nothing, but clay bricks and 2x4s certainly are not nothing. People can break through baseball bats and have legitimate stuff broken all over their bodies. Why would televised breaking competions allow competitors to cheat? They don't get to bring their own stuff, its all provided and/or checked to make sure it is legit.

I am not some naive kid, trust me, I have been around and I know what is real and what isn't. When I say a person can do something (ok with the exception of the 10 story thing, which a person can't do with a normal human brain) that means I have seen it or done it. It doesn't mean I have heard about it or read it in a book or just seen a picture. It means I have seen numerous videos from totally independent sources and/or seen it with my own eyes.

"Discrete mathematics, sometimes called finite mathematics, is the study of mathematical structures that are fundamentally discrete, in the sense of not supporting or requiring the notion of continuity. Most, if not all, of the objects studied in finite mathematics are countable sets, such as the integers."

Or maybe you're just pretending you've taken these math classes and have no idea what you're talking about...

wtf is with the personal attacks at this place? If the acceleration was not constant, you would need to use some kind of piecewise method to solve the problem, like Euler's method. And piecewise methods are also known as discrete methods, because you must break problems down into discrete portions. I know what discrete math is, I am a computer science major. We don't solve problems like that in discrete math, but nonetheless it can be considered to fall under the realm of discrete mathematics. I am probably not as smart as most of you, but I can tell you straight up that I am much more polite. Or so it seems so far.

 

[LFTKBS]

Assume we had a million strong healthy people, who have been conditioning themselves for the very task for some time, years even. I contend that at least one out of that million would be able to survive the fall unharmed (minus temporary injuries like bumps and bruises). The science of it says that it would be darn unlikely, but that certainly isn't "impossible," and that is all I said in the first place. That it is possible. So lets just drop it. Seriously, who would even try such a thing?

Truly this chi is a force to be reckoned with. Although it needs a better name . . . how about "dumb luck"?

 

[delphi_ote]

But I want to know how they get that hardcore, that is why I am here.

In a skeptic forum? You're in a skeptic forum to find out about becoming a "hardcore" martial artist? Why not jump over to some other irrelevant forum and harass them? Perhaps a cooking or fishing forum?

 

[drkitten]

drkitten- these are all things that I have seen and/or done myself. I have been a martial artist for a long time, and we do fully legitimate breaks on strong materials. I am not talking about the easy breaks, I am talking about hard ones, like breaking objects supported at only one end. I know half inch pine boards are nothing, but clay bricks and 2x4s certainly are not nothing. People can break through baseball bats and have legitimate stuff broken all over their bodies.

Can they?

If that's the case, there's a cool million awaiting you in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, if you can demonstrate it. Of course, Randi will probably want to inspect your baseball bat beforehand.

Why would televised breaking competions allow competitors to cheat?

Because the ratings are higher, of course. In part because people want to believe that such things are possible, and also because it makes for better theater.

Let's be serious for a moment here. How long was it before televised wrestling (used to be WWF, now it's WWE or something) admitted that the matches were scripted and that the fighting was phoney? It was obvious to most of the audience that it was, of course -- but at the same time you would see fans declaring, in all apparent seriousness, that no, it was for real.

But if WWF can "cheat" in its matches and get away with it, and the fans will even believe them -- of course televised breaking matches can do the same thing. And will, if the profits are there.

It means I have seen numerous videos from totally independent sources and/or seen it with my own eyes.

How can I put this politely?.. this doesn't mean much. I can personally attest, having seen on numerous videos (from totally independent sources) and also live, and in person, a man pluck coins out of thin air, vanish sponge balls, escape from a locked cage in full view of the audience, and read the pips from a card sealed in an opaque envelope.

I have also seen

• Yoda fighting Count Dooku with a lightsaber
• Neo fighting a whole plethora of identical Agent Smiths
• Legolas leaping onto the back of a four-tusked oliphaunt

 

[crimresearch]

"Can they?

If that's the case, there's a cool million awaiting you in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, if you can demonstrate it. Of course, Randi will probably want to inspect your baseball bat beforehand."

You might want to pick a better example. Baseball bats break from being hit with a small leather ball thrown by one arm....breaking them with a shin kick (as TB can attest) is not even close to paranormal.

The bat break looks harder than it is because of the width of the bat where it *isn't* being broken.

If you saw someone break a straight wooden rod of the same small diameter as the middle of a bat, you would be saying 'Oh anyone could do that'.

The fact that there are plenty of frauds out there with baked boards, and pre-sawn bats doesn't negate the basic physicics involved in snapping a piece of wood with a part of the body.

 

[Timothy]

Lets just drop this 10 story fall thing OK? Let us agree to disagree. I think it is possible, you don't think it is possible, neither of us can prove totally that it is or isn't.

Sure. You can. With a single, verifiable example.

However, the conditions need to be well-defined. Most of the calculations here rely on landing on concrete (since people assume that buildings of more than 10 stories have sidewalks around them), and the assumption that the jumper walks away unharmed.

There are, of course, numerous examples of people surviving falls from great heights. Their survivals are almost always predicated on the softness of the landing surface, and in many cases they are parachutists whose chutes don't deploy fully, but well enough to slow them. See

http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffresearch.html

for examples of free fall survivors.


- Timothy

 

[Ashles]

I don't know Ashles. I know for a fact we can control the blood flow to all parts of the body,

Whoah there. Hang on. Says who? References please.

Here is an article about the current thinking about Biofeedback research
There are some things that can be done - the increase in hand blood flow seems to have been observed, and certain migraine relief (but that could also be the effects of relaxation).
But blood flow to everywhere specifically? That would certainly be very useful in medical treatment. Can you provide any links to evidence?

That we can effect sensations such as elation or pain control does is accepted as it is the brain that is creating these sensations, and it filters them too.
It is also fairly well agreed that with training we can also get some control over heart rate and blood pressure.

As the situation sems to stand the research may be promising in this field but it is still currently controversial.
One problem is that people often tend to assume we have a far greater degree of conscious control over the body than we actually do.

There is a great story about people being hypnotised and told they are going to be burnt, then an ice cube is placed on their arm, yet they still blister as if burnt.
It sounds so plausible.
But research shows that such an experiment seems to have never been done in reality.
The story originates in a nineteenth century novel.

and I know we can change the way things feel (for instance negating pain or other sensation), although the latter could just be some way of getting our mind to refuse to accept the stimulus rather than actually changing it.

I agree, that's probably the mechanism..

I also am pretty sure that a person, using proper visualizations, could psyche themselves into various states. The yoga masters talk about something called khundalini which is supposed to feel really good, so somehow they get themselves into that state.

Again, that feelings of euphoria can be generated by some individuals is widely accepted as true.

What I have heard, but don't know for sure, is that metabolism can also be changed. This would mean actually being able to increase or lower body temperature rather than just changing blood flow. This seems kind of farfetched and might be dangerous if a person did it, but I don't rule it out, because scientifically it is possible.

Well whether it is scientifically possible or not is what they are trying to find out. We don't know at the moment.

 

[Ashles]

Sure. You can. With a single, verifiable example.

However, the conditions need to be well-defined. Most of the calculations here rely on landing on concrete (since people assume that buildings of more than 10 stories have sidewalks around them), and the assumption that the jumper walks away unharmed...

We already discussed that - rocketdodger's example specifically refers to someone breaking the fall with their own muscles. Landing on grass or in a tree, or into a lorry filled with pillows doesn't count.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Well, since we're still entertaining this fictional jump I'll toss my explanation of how it could be done. One would have to pick 10 spells to meditate on in the morning and memorize. One of those would have to be feather-fall. The jumper could then land safely after jumping off of a 10 story building.

 

[Ashles]

Well, since we're still entertaining this fictional jump I'll toss my explanation of how it could be done. One would have to pick 10 spells to meditate on in the morning and memorize. One of those would have to be feather-fall. The jumper could then land safely after jumping off of a 10 story building.

You're forgetting about the new Argument by Sacrificing the Population of China approach.

"I think X is possible"
"No we've looked at your claim and it doesn't seem like it is possible"
"I bet if a million people tried one could do it"
"I don't think so"
"Okay ten million. A hundred million. I bet if a billion people tried it someone would do it"
"Well that makes sense now. I guess we'd better start updating the scientific textbooks."

 

[Dredred]

Rocketdodger,
Maybe you feel the biological limits of what your body can do lie beyond your current psychological limits, and you want to push your psychological limits until they meet your biological limits. Am i right? Then i don't think asking questions here will help. You better go and practise. I've done this myself with jumping from heights, each time increasing the height. When i had pushed my limit to about 4,5 meters my ankles started hurting and i stopped. But if you learn techniques to break your fall (aikido/judo rolls) you can go further. Watch this clip to see someone do some incredible jumping.