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The Truth about RFK Jr

Resume said:
I can attest that among the anti-vaxxers of my experience, they are already convinced of this. "Do your own research and you'll see!" said the person who gets her information from Joseph Mercola's website.
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The percentage of Americans that are committed to anti-vax is vanishingly small, the percentage of Americans that aren't paying attention to RFK is most people. Just calling him stupid hurts with both groups, I only care about one. RFK and a lot of the prominent anti-vaxers aren't stupid, a lot are liars but they aren't stupid. Acting like they are stupid will only result in more people being convinced they might be right. Basically, true of most woo.

Take, the Spanish flu, he's not technically wrong in saying most (maybe just a lot) of deaths were actually caused by bacterial pneumonia. What he neglects is that they wouldn't have if they didn't get the flu first. A bit like AIDS that, nobody dies of aids, they die of diseases which wouldn't be deadly except for aids. Oddly, sort of confirming the terrain theory of disease just not like RFK seems to think. But then why actually address the arguments people are making when you can just call the dumb and be done with it.

www.statista.com

Opinion on importance for parents to get children vaccinated U.S. 2019| Statista

This statistic shows the percentage of U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com
 
Resume said:
Citation please.
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I guess you can't click links then? See above, as of 2019, the percentage of Americans that think getting vaccinated is important to very important is 93%.

ETA, I'm going to guess that it's not even the entirety of the remaining 7 that think its harmful or not at all helpful.
 
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Hmmm . . .
ahhell said:
I guess you can't click links then? See above, as of 2019, the percentage of Americans that think getting vaccinated is important to very important is 93%.
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Survey from 2023.

A survey of US adults demonstrates eroding confidence in vaccines and more willingness to accept misinformation about vaccines and COVID-19 over the last 2 years, according to results released today by the Annenberg Public Policy Center (APPC) at the University of Pennsylvania.

The center fielded its 13th nationally representative public health survey to more than 1,500 adults from October 5 to 12, 2023, finding that the proportion of respondents who believe in the safety of vaccines fell from 77% in April 2021 to 71% in fall 2023.Over the same period, the percentage of respondents who believe approved vaccines are unsafe jumped from 9% to 16%.

Although the number of people who accept this misinformation is relatively small, "there are warning signs in these data that we ignore at our peril," said APPC Director Kathleen Hall Jamieson, PhD. "Growing numbers now distrust health-protecting, life-saving vaccines."
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Significant drop I'd say.
 
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Resume said:
Hmmm . . .

Survey from 2023.


Significant drop I'd say.
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I agree, which is why I think it's important to address the actual arguments being made. Calling folks dumb will not convince them they ae wrong. I'm sure its satisfying though. The folks that believe vaccines are unsafe went from 9% to 16%. So, ok, not vanishingly small, I sit corrected, its just small rather than vanishingly small.
 
More bad news.

The survey conducted October 5-12, 2023, with a panel of over 1,500 U.S. adults, finds that the number of Americans who think vaccines approved for use in the United States are safe dropped to 71% from 77% in April 2021. The percentage of adults who don’t think vaccines approved in the U.S. are safe grew to 16% from 9% over that same two-and-a-half-year period.

Despite concerted efforts by news organizations, public health officials, scientists, and fact-checkers (including APPC’s project FactCheck.org) to counter viral misinformation about vaccination and Covid-19, the survey finds that some false or unproven claims about them are more widely accepted today than two to three years ago. Although the proportion of the American public that holds these beliefs is, in some cases, still relatively small, the survey finds growth in misinformation acceptance across many questions touching on vaccination.

“There are warning signs in these data that we ignore at our peril,” said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center and director of the survey. “Growing numbers now distrust health-protecting, life-saving vaccines.”
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And this.

Growing acceptance of vaccine misinformation​

Beliefs in vaccine misinformation are on the rise:

  • Vaccinations affecting childhood autism: There’s been a decline in the number of people who know it is false to say that “increased vaccinations are why so many kids have autism these days,” dropping to 65% from 71% in April 2021. The number of people who believe that this is true has grown to 16% from 10% over that period. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says that vaccines do not cause autism.
  • Growing belief in false MMR-autism link: Asked if it is true or false that vaccines given to children for diseases like measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) cause autism, 12% incorrectly say this is true, up from 9% in June 2021, a statistically significant rise. Most people (70%) correctly say that this allegation is false. According to the /DC, vaccine experts say “the MMR vaccine is not responsible for increases in the number of children with autism.”
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Wait until the cooked autism/vaccine study hits in September; RFK's bull ◊◊◊◊ will only increase these numbers.

He is a clear and present danger. ◊◊◊◊ him.
 
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ahhell said:
The percentage of Americans that are committed to anti-vax is vanishingly small, the percentage of Americans that aren't paying attention to RFK is most people. Just calling him stupid hurts with both groups, I only care about one. RFK and a lot of the prominent anti-vaxers aren't stupid, a lot are liars but they aren't stupid. Acting like they are stupid will only result in more people being convinced they might be right. Basically, true of most woo.

Take, the Spanish flu, he's not technically wrong in saying most (maybe just a lot) of deaths were actually caused by bacterial pneumonia. What he neglects is that they wouldn't have if they didn't get the flu first. A bit like AIDS that, nobody dies of aids, they die of diseases which wouldn't be deadly except for aids. Oddly, sort of confirming the terrain theory of disease just not like RFK seems to think. But then why actually address the arguments people are making when you can just call the dumb and be done with it.

www.statista.com

Opinion on importance for parents to get children vaccinated U.S. 2019| Statista

This statistic shows the percentage of U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com
Click to expand...

"It's your fault I'm doing this" is classic abuser rhetoric.

And I have to add that I find it a little disturbing that in a thread discussing actual dead children who died because of anti-vaxxerism, your most passionate arguments are reserved for defending anti-vaxxers from accusations of stupidity.
 
Resume said:
More bad news.


And this.


Wait until the cooked autism/vaccine study hits in September; RFK's bull ◊◊◊◊ will only increase these numbers.

He is a clear and present danger. ◊◊◊◊ him.
Click to expand...
I have never said he wasn't. All I'm saying is address his actual arguments, don't resort to ad hom. Which is where all this started, someone called him dumb and I said, he isn't and its a mistake to dismiss his actual arguments as just dumb. Which some folks think is tantamount to being pro RFK or something.

Carrot Flower King said:
Chris, do we really expect a Grade A Numpty like RFK Jr to actually be able to distinguish between the different flavours of "Not Germ Theory"?

All he seems to know is "vaccines baaaaaaaaad!", "germs don't exist!".
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Sorry, not dumb a numpty incapable of distinquishing between different flavors of not germ theory. I'm willing to bet, RFK is better able to distinquish between the different flavors of not germ theory than just about anyone in this forum. If that's true and pro-vax folks come at him like he's just dumb and ignorant he will conince more folks who don't know or don't especially care about germ theory vs not and whether or not vaccines are worse than the disease will be convinced that RFK is right.

Granted, my opinion and a bunch of supposed skeptics making fun of RFK on an internet forum aren't actually going to make a difference. When was the last time an anti-vaxer read anything here.
 
ahhell said:
I have never said he wasn't. All I'm saying is address his actual arguments, don't resort to ad hom. Which is where all this started, someone called him dumb and I said, he isn't and its a mistake to dismiss his actual arguments as just dumb. Which some folks think is tantamount to being pro RFK or something.
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It's not am ad-hom to demonstrate an argument to be wrong, and that the arguer is ignorant. Calling RFK Jr. an ignorant ass does not devalue the clear demonstration that his claims about vaccines are bull ◊◊◊◊.

Granted, my opinion and a bunch of supposed skeptics making fun of RFK on an internet forum aren't actually going to make a difference. When was the last time an anti-vaxer read anything here.
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Who knows whether of not it will make a difference? Supposed skeptics is amusing; you can be skeptical, logical and rational, yet still point out that an ignorant ass hole is behaving like an ignorant ass hole. As far as anti-vaxxers posting here, I can think of a few, and one in particular who was particularly recalcitrant when it came to evidence and citations. Now that he's banned I can say Bubba, you are an ignorant ass hole.
 
plus did you consider that the only reason people like rfk and the rest of them is because they’re barely paying attention and a bunch of people like you are insisting he’s smart and we should take him seriously when he’s not and we absolutely shouldn’t? maybe if everyone was calling him stupid all these low info people would think that about him instead?
 
If true, RFK really is an ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
1746470288869.png
 
ahhell said:
The percentage of Americans that are committed to anti-vax is vanishingly small, the percentage of Americans that aren't paying attention to RFK is most people. Just calling him stupid hurts with both groups, I only care about one. RFK and a lot of the prominent anti-vaxers aren't stupid, a lot are liars but they aren't stupid. Acting like they are stupid will only result in more people being convinced they might be right. Basically, true of most woo.

Take, the Spanish flu, he's not technically wrong in saying most (maybe just a lot) of deaths were actually caused by bacterial pneumonia. What he neglects is that they wouldn't have if they didn't get the flu first. A bit like AIDS that, nobody dies of aids, they die of diseases which wouldn't be deadly except for aids. Oddly, sort of confirming the terrain theory of disease just not like RFK seems to think. But then why actually address the arguments people are making when you can just call the dumb and be done with it.

www.statista.com

Opinion on importance for parents to get children vaccinated U.S. 2019| Statista

This statistic shows the percentage of U.S.
www.statista.com www.statista.com
Click to expand...
A slight variation on "All that is needed for the triumph of evil if for good people to do nothing".
 
dirtywick said:
plus did you consider that the only reason people like rfk and the rest of them is because they’re barely paying attention and a bunch of people like you are insisting he’s smart and we should take him seriously when he’s not and we absolutely shouldn’t? maybe if everyone was calling him stupid all these low info people would think that about him instead?
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That is not what ah hell is saying.
You don't seem to get the idea that people can simply be indifferent to something and just got care until it is too late.
AH Hell nowhere said RFK is smart. He is trying to explain why he has supporters, and saying "they are stupid" is not a good explanation.
 
Today at Unbiased Science Jess Steier wrote, "We shouldn't be surprised that MAHA is winning the messaging war...
With their carefully chosen buzzwords and seemingly common-sense arguments, they've captured the public imagination in ways that scientific institutions have consistently failed to do. And why wouldn't they? The MAHA movement is so appealing because they've tapped into the simplicity of common sense. Why would we want artificial ingredients when we have natural alternatives? Why wouldn't we want to end chronic disease? Why wouldn't we demand the gold standard for vaccine safety testing?" He continued, "The narrative that scientists are somehow working against public health rather than dedicating their lives to improving it is perhaps MAHA's most damaging rhetorical achievement...Surely natural immunity—evocative of Mother Nature herself gently touching us on the nose to impart protection—is better than a needle shoved into our arm with all its chemicals manufactured in a lab, produced by Big Pharma corporations, right? Heck, sign us up for natural immunity! The language itself stacks the deck against science before the conversation even begins." No one should doubt that Mr. Steier is pro-vax.

Pandemic Accountability (also today) wrote, "While the term "Evidence-Based Medicine" has existed prior to 2020, the qualifier of "Gold Standard" is a relatively recent addition. Where does this come from? Doesn't this imply the existence of "Silver," "Bronze," or even "Platinum" standards of medicine? How is such a grade even determined, governed by what authority? There is no real answer to these questions, because "Gold Standard" is an empty qualifier meant to elevate one's ideals by implying the inferiority of dissenting opinions."

One may be forced to debate antivaxxers in the quest to reach the vaccine-hesitant. But those of us who are pro-vax have not done enough to win the language war. We should, to take just one example, challenge reporters who refer to anti-vax individuals instead as vaccine-skeptics; they are no such thing.
EDT
One cannot win this argument by calling antivaxxers stupid. More to follow when I have time.
 
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dudalb said:
That is not what ah hell is saying.
You don't seem to get the idea that people can simply be indifferent to something and just got care until it is too late.
AH Hell nowhere said RFK is smart. He is trying to explain why he has supporters, and saying "they are stupid" is not a good explanation.
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ahhell said:
Which is where all this started, someone called him dumb and I said, he isn't and its a mistake to dismiss his actual arguments as just dumb.
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and he goes on to say it’s an ad hom and we should address his actual arguments and not insult him because it turns his supporters off from listening

now tell me more about what i don’t get
 
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