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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

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As I said, acbytesla has argued his case well enough, so I'll give him the benefit of a doubt.

Just can't write that you were wrong, can you? What is the psychological reason behind that? I'm only asking because you have a degree in psychology and would know. Right?

Found this for you:
Traits like honesty and humility make you more human and therefore more relatable. On the flip side, if it is undeniably clear that you are in the wrong, refusing to apologize reveals low self-confidence.

If it is clear to everybody that you made a mistake,” Mr. Okimoto said, “digging your heels in actually shows people your weakness of character rather than strength.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/smarter-living/why-its-so-hard-to-admit-youre-wrong.html

But now that you at least acknowledge that the plane wasn't chartered, perhaps you might comment over on TJMK and let them know the truth? Or...you could just let the falsehood stand.

Anyone want to bet on it?
 
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What would you like me to do, commit Hara Kiri on national TV?

Still can't say it can you?

A simple, 'I Vixen was 100 percent wrong and promise not to repeat this falsehood again.' Nothing hard about it.
 
True. I've seen them go for more than $5K and far less. Amanda did write, as I previously quoted, that Chris Mellas and a supporter who worked for BA were the ones who obtained the seats. This implies that they weren't just regularly paid tickets that could have been bought on the internet or a ticket agency. But some people just can't pass any opportunity to say something nasty about Knox whether they know what they're talking about or not...as in this case.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that they had arranged for the family some low fares because they were regularly flying between Seattle and Rome. And not just on that final flight.
 
I seem to remember reading somewhere that they had arranged for the family some low fares because they were regularly flying between Seattle and Rome. And not just on that final flight.

I found this:

BRITISH Airways has allowed Amanda Knox’s family to have cheap flights between the US and Italy for the past seven months, the Sunday Express can reveal

A representative of the UK’s national airline bought them tickets worth several thousands pounds to help their campaign to free Knox, who was jailed for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, 21.

Since March, a BA employee based at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport has been using staff privileges to snap up discounted seats and pass them on to the Knox family.

This allowed Knox’s mother Edda Mellas, stepfather Chris Mellas and father Curt Knox to make regular trips to Perugia via Rome.


Last night British Airways said: “Our employees can purchase standby tickets for close family members or friends. We are fully satisfied that a member of staff based in the US has used their ability to buy standby tickets within the scheme’s strict rules.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/276351/Why-did-BA-give-Amanda-Knox-VIP-treatment

Granted, this is from the Express but it does agree with what Amanda wrote in her book regarding an airline employee arranging the trip home for them.
As the BA rep said, it was all perfectly within the rules of the airline.

Francesco Maresca complained that the Kerchers were not getting the same treatment. Rather than moan about the BA employee using initiative to help the Knox/Mellas families, perhaps he should have asked why no one came forward to do the same for the Kerchers as they should have. Where were the PGP supporters? Where were TJMK and PMF members who claimed their concern was "all for Meredith"?
 
Slick Pete Quennell better get his (failed) email campaign organized:

Kings Theatre‏ @KingsBklyn · 11h11 hours ago

JUST ANNOUNCED: Jason Flom’s Wrongful Conviction podcast comes to @KingsBklyn LIVE on June 27 feat. a conversation with Amanda Knox, benefiting @Innocence Project. Flom & guests will discuss America’s women in prison. �� go on sale Friday (5/11) at 10AM: https://bit.ly/2rt1yqN

https://twitter.com/KingsBklyn
 
I found this:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/276351/Why-did-BA-give-Amanda-Knox-VIP-treatment

Granted, this is from the Express but it does agree with what Amanda wrote in her book regarding an airline employee arranging the trip home for them.
As the BA rep said, it was all perfectly within the rules of the airline.

Connections matter. That Amanda and family were flying BA benefited the airline in many ways. The first, was they sold a lot of seats to them. Second, they sold seats to journalists (suckers) Third, they were mentioned often on television news all over the world. That alone was worth thousands of dollars.
 
Connections matter. That Amanda and family were flying BA benefited the airline in many ways. The first, was they sold a lot of seats to them. Second, they sold seats to journalists (suckers) Third, they were mentioned often on television news all over the world. That alone was worth thousands of dollars.

I wonder why Quennell,Ganong, et al. didn't organize a boycott of BA. You know, all for Meredith.
 
I'm no psychologist but I am going to hazard a guess that it would be "Vixen is a narcissist".

Should be noted that Vixen HAS STILL NOT ADMITTED SHE WAS WRONG. Only 'fair enough' and that 'acbytesla argued his case well enough, so I'll give him the benefit of a doubt'. And then she disappeared.

Anything to avoid taking responsibility.
 
To help understand what the ECHR may understand relating to its job - which relevant to Knox v. Italy is to judge whether or not there have been any violation(s) of Knox's rights under the European Convention of Human Rights, to declare in its judgment any such violation(s), and to indicate in its judgment what it considers necessary individual and general measures to redress any such violation(s), which may include suggestions for the reforms in the practice or laws of a respondent state found in violation.

Here's an annotated list of some of the implications of the excerpt for the ECHR case Knox v. Italy.

1. The Boninsegna court found Knox's allegations, in light of the testimony of the witnesses, to have credibility: "the chosen investigative practices induced in the defendant the conviction, or the reasonable doubt, that she was being subjected to a planned, oppressive and unfair investigative action - this also takes into account Knox’s definitive acquittal in the main criminal trial because she did not commit the crime of murder - in light of the overall way in which her interrogation was performed.

There is, therefore, an absence of the evidence to place beyond a reasonable doubt that the events did not indeed occur as the girl related and that she was fully aware of the non-involvement of the Prosecutor in the way the investigations concerning her were performed.

Pursuant to article 530 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure,
acquits Knox Amanda Marie for the charge under letter a), because the facts do not exist, and for the charge under letter b), because the facts do not exist and because the act does not constitute an offense, as regards the accusations addressed to Dr. Giuliano Mignini."

2. Intense psychological pressure, especially when accompanied by the denial of defense rights such as warnings of the right to remain silent and the right to have a lawyer present, and the provision of an uninvolved, neutral interpreter, in an interrogation by investigators to obtain a statement to incriminate the person questioned or another person is highly likely to be considered a violation of Convention Article 3 by the ECHR, not as torture, but as inhuman or degrading treatment.

3. The statements made by Knox during the interrogations of Knox on Nov. 5/6 by the police and Mignini had already been declared unusable against her by the Gemelli CSC panel. The use of her statements against her for the charge of calunnia against Lumumba because of her "defensive" statement after the interrogation, as allowed by that CSC panel, may be considered arbitrary and a violation of the Convention by the ECHR, because she was still denied a lawyer, required under Italian law and ECHR case-law, at the relevant time. Mignini apparently did not follow Italian law in denying lawyers for Knox and Sollecito in the period Nov. 5 to Nov. 8.

4. The police and prosecutor are obligated under Italian law to record, using audio or audiovisual methods, questioning of a detained person. Even if the audio or audiovisual equipment were unavailable, detailed minutes are required by Italian law, including the start and finish times, who was present, and of course, the questions and answers, when a suspect is questioned. The presence of a defense lawyer for the suspect is also required, except under specified circumstances, and must be validated in writing and approved by a magistrate.

5. An interpreter is required at all stages of a criminal proceeding, including questioning of a suspect, when the suspect does not fully understand the language used in the questioning, according to the Convention. The interpreter must be neutral and fair.

6. The measures adopted by the police and their interpreter of suggesting amnesia and also of embracing and/or touching Knox would be likely to constitute violations of the Convention under Article 8. While not all violations of Article 8 against a suspect imply violations of Article 6 (unfair trial), it is likely these do, because of the intent to induce the person questioned to make a statement against herself or another person.

7. A clear statement by Boninsegna of the issues indicating a violation of Convention regarding the interpreters, when the statements obtained in the questioning are used against the person questioned or another person.

8. Again, Boninsegna indicates (indirectly) the violation of Italian law in the way the activities of the questioning of Nov. 5/6 were not recorded. This type of violation of domestic law which results in use of statements obtained from the questioning to convict someone is likely to be considered a violation of the Convention.

9. The Boninsegna MR language is likely to give the ECHR exactly the type of information it seeks to find a violation of Convention Article 6 with Article 3, because in its case-law, violations of the dignity of a person under the control of the authorities is a violation of Article 3 (inhuman or degrading treatment).

10. This language may induce the ECHR to find a violation of the presumption of innocence, whether or not Knox listed that specific allegation in her application. The ECHR will sometimes, as the master of the facts and the law under the Convention, specify violations of the Convention based upon the facts, even when not specifically requested by the applicant.

There's no way the police and Mignini weren't aware of what they were doing with Knox during the interrogation. They knew it was illegal and unusable from the very first question. What's so remarkable about that is the fact that they did it anyway which shows just how certain they were that she was guilty and had useful information for them even if they couldn't use it at trial.

They had a body surrounded exclusively by male prints with male DNA from the rapekit, yet they were convinced beyond any doubt this ditsy American girl was somehow the ringleader. I'm still baffled to this day what made them so certain. I mean not even Toto was giving them the heroin fogged scoop at this point. But they didn't care what backlash they would later face from the interrogation because they knew the rapekit results would be matched to someone connected to Knox and that would solve the case.

They gambled and took a chance with the rushed full press illegal interrogation rather than waiting on the evidence, and then when they lost and had three innocent people sitting in jail had the nerve to try to dodge their just deserts with the bs calunnia charge. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those pesky kids and their ECHR :p
 
Stacyhs said:
I wonder what a psychologist would say about that?
I'm no psychologist but I am going to hazard a guess that it would be "Vixen is a narcissist".

The medium is the message.

The issue is not psychological. It is a well worn path of internet forum styles; some get locked into the role of the lone-voice dissenter, a role to be relished as it makes the poster the centre of the thread.

It's a well known phenomenon. Not psychological, but more akin to how many messages get exchanged before someone is accused of being a Nazi.
 
The medium is the message.

The issue is not psychological. It is a well worn path of internet forum styles; some get locked into the role of the lone-voice dissenter, a role to be relished as it makes the poster the centre of the thread.

It's a well known phenomenon. Not psychological, but more akin to how many messages get exchanged before someone is accused of being a Nazi.

It's still psychological. There is no question that Vixen is the center of this thread. And it definitely is narcissism of a kind that drives this. This is Donald Trump in a different forum.

If we ignored Vixen, she would go away. But then, what would we all do? You Bill and Stacy need Vixen as much as she needs to be the center of attention. You know this to be true.
 
Guilty as charged.

I see what happens to the thread when she stops posting. I keep checking back for ECHR updates, but I couldn't resist when I read about the charter. ( See? I'm weak willed.)

The truth is, I just can't argue this case any longer. I can't go over non cleanup clean ups, DNA, footprints, interrogations any more. There was a purpose for this argument at one time. But convincing Vixen is obviously an impossible task. She doesn't matter.
 
It's still psychological. There is no question that Vixen is the center of this thread. And it definitely is narcissism of a kind that drives this. This is Donald Trump in a different forum.

If we ignored Vixen, she would go away. But then, what would we all do? You Bill and Stacy need Vixen as much as she needs to be the center of attention. You know this to be true.

I agree with everything acbystesla said. It is psychological. It is narcissism and it is Donald Trump in a different forum.
Vixen fascinates me in an odd way; part comedy, part horror, part drama. And all entertainment.
Guilty as charged.
 
I see what happens to the thread when she stops posting. I keep checking back for ECHR updates, but I couldn't resist when I read about the charter. ( See? I'm weak willed.)

The truth is, I just can't argue this case any longer. I can't go over non cleanup clean ups, DNA, footprints, interrogations any more. There was a purpose for this argument at one time. But convincing Vixen is obviously an impossible task. She doesn't matter.

It's things like the Naparijini jacket, red band cap, and the charter that keep the forum entertaining for me. It's fascinating to watch just how many times someone can be knocked down and keep coming back for more.
 
I did just look at TJMK. Some increasingly bizarre comments. I particularly like the new crime that Knox is guilty of "Felony Demonization". She is now an "Arch-demonizer". So we are harking back to the Halloween theme I suspect. It just reinforces the idea of a witch hunt.

What seems to happen is a type of mission creep. The only core fact is 'the guilt of Knox' all else is malleable in support of this fact. One can just assume that if Knox was guilty then she might have done this or that, then this morphs into a fact. Then this becomes evidence of guilt in a self perpetuating circular argument that is independent of reality.

So we get the argument that after being imprisoned abroad for three years Knox flying straight home was somehow abnormal, and that she should have remained in Italy to help the Police with their investigation. (Although it does appear that they had three years of Knox in prison during which they could have sought her assistance.) I would suggest that most people guilty or innocent when released from prison go home.
 
Guilty as charged.
Me too.
It's things like the Naparijini jacket, red band cap, and the charter that keep the forum entertaining for me. It's fascinating to watch just how many times someone can be knocked down and keep coming back for more.

The amazing thing is that she is never "knocked down". She has no self-awareness, no sense of how badly she embarrasses herself. Long ago I posted some of her worst errors and had I kept up the list would only be longer now. She keeps on ticking. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all human. But most of us, if we posted something like "Kimo Sabe = do you understand" would recognize our error and be knocked down a peg or 2. Not our guilter.
 
Me too.


The amazing thing is that she is never "knocked down". She has no self-awareness, no sense of how badly she embarrasses herself. Long ago I posted some of her worst errors and had I kept up the list would only be longer now. She keeps on ticking. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all human. But most of us, if we posted something like "Kimo Sabe = do you understand" would recognize our error and be knocked down a peg or 2. Not our guilter.

So Vixen is a weeble? :D
 
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