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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

JayUtah said:
The portions involving the asterisks are clearly AI-generated, as evidenced by the copious inclusion of hyperlinks that help the user understand where the AI is getting its information. The other portions appear to be quotations from someone else's general analysis and conclusions. We already discussed the Brandenburg report in general terms, including its final opinions. The exercise here is to test @Vixen's insinuation that having access to the details gave her better understanding of the reported science. Therefore it requires a detailed line of questioning, not yet another high-altitude fly-by.
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Those asterisked are each a factual definition from wiki and links to it.

No, that is my analysis of what the report says.
 
Vixen said:
It is NOT AI produced.
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It obviously is.

Vixen said:
Those asterisked are each a factual definition from wiki and links to it.
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...generated by the AI, as AI is wont to do in order to document where it gets its information. In any case, copypasting from Wikipedia is no more "in your own words" than asking an AI to do it.

Vixen said:
No, that is my analysis of what the report says.
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I didn't ask you to analyze the entire report. I asked you to interpret the one paragraph in your own words. Pointing to Wikipedia definitions of some of the words in the paragraph is not an interpretation.

Vixen said:
See picture no. 21 (Bild 21) to see what these voluminous panel-shaped parts look like.
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In exactly what way are those "panel-shaped?" What does "panel-shaped" mean? What does the author mean by "in volume?" What is "perlite?"

Vixen said:
Stop spreading lies about me.
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No, you don't get to whine your way out of this. Answer my questions in your own words, not in some AI's words or Wikipedia's words.
 
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JayUtah said:
It obviously is.


...generated by the AI, as AI is wont to do in order to document where it gets its information.


I didn't ask you to analyze the entire report. I asked you to interpret the one paragraph in your own words. Pointing to Wikipedia definitions of some of the words in the paragraph is not an interpretation.


In exactly what way are those "panel-shaped?" What does "panel-shaped" mean? What does the author mean by "in volume?" What is "perlite?"


No, you don't get to whine your way out of this. Answer my questions in your own words, not in some AI's words or Wikipedia's words.
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IT IS NOT AI.

Cementite (or iron carbide) is a compound of iron and carbon, more precisely an intermediate transition metal carbide with the formula Fe3C. By weight, it is 6.67% carbon and 93.3% iron. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementite


Pearlite is a two-phased, lamellar (or layered) structure composed of alternating layers of ferrite (87.5 wt%) and cementite (12.5 wt%) that occurs in some steels and cast irons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearlite

In materials science, lamellar structures or microstructures are composed of fine, alternating layers of different materials in the form of lamellae. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_structure


I repeat, I wrote:

P 195



The in volume panel-shaped iron carbide* parts of the perlite** are unable to resist the strong micro processes. The destruction of this perlite, marked on the micro section as lamellar*** structure, becomes particularly clear on pictures 29, 31, and 33. A destruction of the lamellae has occurred which cannot occur by any comparable mechanical technological influence. The processes of explosive treatments of metallic materials as for example explosive hardening and explosive cladding have to be excluded. These processes show in surface-near areas comparable effects.
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In metallurgy, deformation is changing a metal's shape by applying force. This can be mechanical force, such as welding or heat application to harden same. A detonation can be evidenced by signs of crystallization and Neuman bands.



A metallurgist can look at the structure of a sample of metal, in this case steel, to measure known variables, such as harden, laminia / lamellar (so called because it appears as a layered effect [as in 'laminated’). In addition, chemical composition of various elements can be analysed (Oxygen, Sodium, Magnesium, etc.), so , when iron oxidizes, there will be apparent signs of corrosion, or rusting’, as an example.

Brandenburg concludes that changes in sample G022 shows significant changes in the fracture edge area. It states, ‘these plastic deformations in the micro range do indicate exposure to extremely heavy shock forces such as happens from the effects of a substance detonating.’

*Cementite (or iron carbide) is a compound of iron and carbon

**Pearlite is a two-phased, lamellar (or layered) structure composed of alternating layers of ferrite (87.5 wt%) and cementite (12.5 wt%) that occurs in some steels and cast irons.

***In materials science, lamellar structures or microstructures are composed of fine, alternating layers of different materials in the form of lamellae.

In other words, Brandenburg is saying that deformation caused by mechanical means can probably be ruled out as a result of the scientific analysis of the elements and physical features of the sample of metal.

“It has to be concluded that the pressure waves also in areas, where by means of light microscopes, only little deformation is recognizable, did result in hardening due to structure deformation in the micro range; (deformation of the perlite grain, change of the solidification density).

The highest hardening has been established in way of the immediate fracture area of the specimen being most strongly strained.

For this hardness increase as well as for the determined structure deformations detonative influence is probable.

Berlin, 29.9.00”

Please deal with it.
 
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JayUtah said:
It obviously is.


...generated by the AI, as AI is wont to do in order to document where it gets its information. In any case, copypasting from Wikipedia is no more "in your own words" than asking an AI to do it.


I didn't ask you to analyze the entire report. I asked you to interpret the one paragraph in your own words. Pointing to Wikipedia definitions of some of the words in the paragraph is not an interpretation.


In exactly what way are those "panel-shaped?" What does "panel-shaped" mean? What does the author mean by "in volume?" What is "perlite?"


No, you don't get to whine your way out of this. Answer my questions in your own words, not in some AI's words or Wikipedia's words.
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No, I will not be making up my own scientific definitions. If there is anything you find unclear in the factual definitions given by wiki, please explain why.
 
Vixen said:
IT IS NOT AI.
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It is not your words. We are testing your ability to understand a metallurgy report, not your ability to search for terms and copypaste someone else's description.

Vixen said:
Please deal with it.
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Please answer my questions in your own words.

Vixen said:
No, I will not be making up my own scientific definitions.
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You are required to demonstrate you understand the terms your report uses. Being able to look them up and copypaste a definition does not express comprehension or an understanding of the sentences that contain them. Being able to restate or describe them in your own words does.

Vixen said:
If there is anything you find unclear in the factual definitions given by wiki, please explain why.
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I'm not testing Wikipedia's knowledge. I'm testing yours.

Why is "panel-shaped" an appropriate description? What shape is "panel-shaped," and how do you know that? What does "in volume" mean? What is "perlite?"
 
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JayUtah said:
It is not your words. We are testing your ability to understand a metallurgy report, not your ability to search for terms.


Please answer my questions in your own words.


You are required to demonstrate you understand the terms your report uses. Being able to look them up and copypaste a definition does not express comprehension or an understanding of the sentences that contain them. Being able to restate or describe them in your own words does.


I'm not testing Wikipedia's knowledge. I'm testing yours.

Why is "panel-shaped" an appropriate description? What shape is "panel-shaped," and how do you know that? What does "in volume" mean? What is "perlite?"
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It is a scientific report. Therefore, before I commence, I will always provide terms of reference so people know what one is talking about. What is the point in talking about pearlites if we are not all clear as to its definition? You asked me what they were. So, before commencing I defined it as per common definition. If you look at figure 21 you can see the shapes the report refers to This is why pictures are provided.

FWIW I said: laminia / lamellar (so called because it appears as a layered effect [as in 'laminated’), I then helpfully provided a definition for you: ***In materials science, lamellar structures or microstructures are composed of fine, alternating layers of different materials in the form of lamellae.
 
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JayUtah said:
The portions involving the asterisks are clearly AI-generated, as evidenced by the copious inclusion of hyperlinks that help the user understand where the AI is getting its information. The other portions appear to be quotations from someone else's general analysis and conclusions. We already discussed the Brandenburg report in general terms, including its final opinions. The exercise here is to test @Vixen's insinuation that having access to the details gave her better understanding of the reported science. Therefore it requires a detailed line of questioning, not yet another high-altitude fly-by.
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I meant to just quote the bullet points containing definitions and hyperlinks to sources as being AI generated, as these were clearly not Vixen's work or words.
 
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Vixen said:
Therefore, before I commence, I will always provide terms of reference so people know what one is talking about.
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I didn't ask you to do that.

Vixen said:
What is the point in talking about pearlites if we are not all clear as to its definition?
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You gave the definition of pearlite. The report talks about perlite. What is perlite?

Vixen said:
If you look at figure 21 you can see the shapes the report refers to This is why pictures are provided.
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I want to know if you understand the language of the report. Tell me why the text of the report describes those as "panel-shaped?" What shape is a "panel?"
 
JayUtah said:
I didn't ask you to do that.


You gave the definition of pearlite. The report talks about perlite. What is perlite?


I want to know if you understand the language of the report. Tell me why the text of the report describes those as "panel-shaped?" What shape is a "panel?"
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In the picture, they look like flakes. Like the metal's appearance looks fragmented into what appears as broken pieces instead of looking all new and shiny.

Pearlite is as defined earlier.
 
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Vixen said:
In the picture, they look like flakes. Like the metal's appears fragmented into what appears as broken pieces instead of looking all new and shiny.
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So why didn't the report describe them as "flake-shaped?" I want to know if you can tell me why the author specifically chose the term "panel-shaped." What about panels describes what's seen in the photo.

Your report talks about "perlite," not "pearlite." What is "perlite?"
 
Vixen, please quote the bit of section 3.3.2 of the JAIC report that says that the Atlantic lock was only added to make people feel safer. You made this claim about the Atlantic lock on multiple occasions, saying that you couldn't remember where you got it from (despite your excellent memory and superior research skills), only to then say that you found the source of your claim, section 3.3.2 of the JAIC report.

I've read section 3.3.2 multiple times and can't find anything in there that says the Atlantic lock was only added to make people safer.

Please quote the text from section 3.3.2 that says this. It's only take you a few seconds, you have no excuse.
 
JayUtah said:
So why didn't the report describe them as "flake-shaped?" I want to know if you can tell me why the author specifically chose the term "panel-shaped." What about panels describes what's seen in the photo.

Your report talks about "perlite," not "pearlite." What is "perlite?"
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Because in Chemistry, crystallized substances conform to defined shapes. That is how scientists can evaluate them.
 
Vixen said:
Because in Chemistry, crystallized substances conform to defined shapes. That is how scientists can evaluate them.
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That's completely nonresponsive to anything I asked you. Stop evading.

Why did the author choose the words "panel-shaped?" Are you sure you're not missing some specialized knowledge that is important?

Your report talks about "perlite," not "pearlite." What is "perlite?"
 
JayUtah said:
That's completely nonresponsive to anything I asked you. Stop evading.

Why did the author choose the words "panel-shaped?" Are you sure you're not missing some specialized knowledge that is important?

Your report talks about "perlite," not "pearlite." What is "perlite?"
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I am guessing that in the translation from German that was the spelling given.
 
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