The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Delphic Oracle]

It was made of several hundred oak trees and coated with tar, which every peasant (= country dweller) in the kingdom of Sweden, including Finland, had to pay the war-mongering king in 'taxes' to pay for all his wars, as collected in barrels. One reason Sweden was once so powerful, it knew the art of shipbuilding, the tar protected the ships.

That's fascinating, thank you for sharing.

ETA: tar has been used that way since the iron age. Sweden was hardly a pioneer in this regard.

Now, back to present day discussion of a metal ship on the seabed.

 

[Vixen]

Interesting article about the current views of sole Brit survivor, Englishman Paul Barney. He once believed the report but now he says he wants to discover the truth. He cannot understand why Britain is a signatory with the Baltic countries barring the approach of the sunken ship. He is convinced, that in the absence of any explanation from the government as to what Britain's interest in the M/S Estonia is - with just two British citizens on board - together with the admission of the Swedish Security Forces that it was engaged in smuggling out Russian military equipment out of Estonia via the M/S Estonia - that there was MI6 involvement. The surveillnace cameras definitely captured military trucks being loaded late onto the boat, which was delayed one hour, and witnesses in Stockholm said the port was inundated with armed Swedish police ready to intercept the expected boat, presumably because they arrived at the scheduled time. Others claim there was cobalt on one of the trucks, a useful ingredient for nuclear weapons.

Hailed as a hero after the disaster in 1994, Barney now wants to know the truth about a connection between Britain’s spies, Cold War missile secrets and the capsizing of the MS Estonia.

<snip>

The British government signed a treaty in 1995 making it illegal for anyone to dive down to the wreckage.

The landscape gardener from Reading, Berks, tells The Sun: “I want the British government to finally tell the truth about what happened to the Estonia and the extent of British involvement in this disaster.

“It was no secret that Soviet military technology was being bought and smuggled out in the free for all that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union and that Estonia was the conduit.

“This seems to be the link that explains why the UK government, as the only non-Baltic nation, signed a treaty that means the wreck remains on the sea bed and no one can explore it. “Why did we sign that treaty? There seems no possible civilian reason. The only explanation can be military.

"We have never had an explanation from our government.”

After communism collapsed in Eastern Europe at the end of 1991, Soviet military equipment became available on the black market.

It was the wild east, with gun runners and generals making a quick rouble while they could.

Western governments wanted to get their hands on the latest hardware and MI6 started smuggling it out via the tiny Baltic state. Journalist Stephen Davis confirmed that Richard Tomlinson, a former MI6 agent, confirmed this rumour in 1998.

And later an official Swedish government investigation concluded that the MS Estonia was used to transport military cargo two weeks prior to the disaster.

<snip>

Another MI6 agent, who didn’t wish to be identified, told a journalist that it contained crucial information about the Russian ballistic missile programme and electronic equipment connected to it.

The spy also claimed there had been a direct warning from the Russians to MI6 to stop smuggling out their tech on the Estonia.

<snip>

For a long time Barney accepted the conclusion of the inquiry into the disaster, which was that the bow doors had been ripped off by large waves and water had flooded into the car deck.

Now he believes there must be another explanation.

“Crew members also said the ramp behind the door was intact when they escaped. The whole investigation is fraught with strange goings on.

“Realistically the ship went down too quickly for the bow visor to be responsible and now we have proof of this unexplained hole. What caused this hole?”

SUN


I trust Paul Barney. He comes across as a very decent chap, level-headed and not given to hyperbole.

I had no idea until reading this that Great Britain was a signatory to this 'must not disturb' treaty. Germany is not.

Why?

 

[theprestige]

It is all hypothetical so there is no point dwelling on it.

And yet here we are. And yet there the Swedish and Estonian governments are.

 

[theprestige]

It has been reinvestigated because under Swedish law, if new information comes to light, it is obliged to investigate the new evidence. It didn't spot the damage to the hull before and it's not included in the report, so they have to go back and check it out.

I doubt that Swedish law mandates they reinvestigate every shipping accident any time a new survey discovers new damage as the hull continues to settle and shift on the ocean floor.

 

[theprestige]

Well, when it sank, it landed almost face down, on a slope and on a muddy bed so it is not immediately obvious why a hole and two fissures should have appeared in the hull in the meantime.

It seems abundantly obvious to me.

Water pressure? Maybe. Shifting around? Who knows.

I think we all know.

 

[theprestige]

Imagine there is a plane crash and the finding is 'a gust of air caused a wing to fall off and hence it immediately crashed into a mountain'. Oh, OK. That's all right then.

Immediately crashing into the nearest terrain feature seems like the only reasonable outcome of a poorly-secured wing being shorn off in heavy turbulence. I wouldn't call it all right, but it seems like the kind of thing that only an idiot or a conspiracy theorist would be suspicious about.

 

[theprestige]

I realise that now. However, he is a naval architect and has a masters in the subject. Further, he was a shipping surveyor for Lloyds underwriters. You can be a 'nutter' and yet still be an expert in your field.

It's very hard to do and there's no evidence Bjorkman has managed it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

On the competence of the crew.
I would argue that the crew of the Lestari Maju Were more competent than those of the Estonia. They took positive actions to prepare the passengers, sent a correct Mayday and the captain took action to stop the ship sinking.

 

[Vixen]

Immediately crashing into the nearest terrain feature seems like the only reasonable outcome of a poorly-secured wing being shorn off in heavy turbulence. I wouldn't call it all right, but it seems like the kind of thing that only an idiot or a conspiracy theorist would be suspicious about.

Er, you would be satisfied with an explanation, 'A gust of wind blew the wing of the aeroplane off'?

Well, there are plenty of people with zero sense of inquistiveness. Some might spin it as a big plus.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Cobalt is primarily used in high performance alloys for such things as turbine blades, tool steels and for lithium-ion batteries.

As for mysterious lorries being loaded under cover of darkness, MI6 etc you are getting in to conspiracy land

 

[theprestige]

Er, you would be satisfied with an explanation, 'A gust of wind blew the wing of the aeroplane off'?

You're equivocating. The explanation is that the wing was poorly maintained, and did not stay attached to the fuselage in heavy turbulence. I find that explanation entirely satisfactory.

If some jackass told me, "a gust of wind blew the wing off", I'd ask them for details about what really happened and what the official explanation was. And once I had those details, I'd be satisfied.

You're trying to downplay the actual official explanation into something unsatisfactory, instead of being honest about what the real explanation is.

 

[Vixen]

On the competence of the crew.
I would argue that the crew of the Lestari Maju Were more competent than those of the Estonia. They took positive actions to prepare the passengers, sent a correct Mayday and the captain took action to stop the ship sinking.

So the accident investigators of this 31-year-old cargo ship managed to recover the ship and the bodies of the dead.

But it's not possible for the Estonia?

Like the Herald of the Free Enterprise, this ship Lestari Maju beached within minutes.

Ship beached near Pabadilang Beach

wiki


Was the Indonesian government using a passenger ship to ferry highly dangerous military equipment, as the Swedish government was?

 

[RolandRat]

Interesting article about the current views of sole Brit survivor, Englishman Paul Barney. He once believed the report but now he says he wants to discover the truth. He cannot understand why Britain is a signatory with the Baltic countries barring the approach of the sunken ship. He is convinced, that in the absence of any explanation from the government as to what Britain's interest in the M/S Estonia is - with just two British citizens on board - together with the admission of the Swedish Security Forces that it was engaged in smuggling out Russian military equipment out of Estonia via the M/S Estonia - that there was MI6 involvement. The surveillnace cameras definitely captured military trucks being loaded late onto the boat, which was delayed one hour, and witnesses in Stockholm said the port was inundated with armed Swedish police ready to intercept the expected boat, presumably because they arrived at the scheduled time. Others claim there was cobalt on one of the trucks, a useful ingredient for nuclear weapons.

And there it is.

 

[Vixen]

Cobalt is primarily used in high performance alloys for such things as turbine blades, tool steels and for lithium-ion batteries.

As for mysterious lorries being loaded under cover of darkness, MI6 etc you are getting in to conspiracy land

You see yourself as the arbiter of what people who were actually there and survived the ordeal and have studied if for years, such as Paul Barney, are allowed to conclude?

One is a considered hands-on expert of the findings, the other concluding on a whim based on a hunch.

 

[RolandRat]

You see yourself as the arbiter of what people who were actually there and survived the ordeal and have studied if for years, such as Paul Barney, are allowed to conclude?

One is a considered hands-on expert of the findings, the other concluding on a whim based on a hunch.

The guy is a landscape gardener not a military analyst.

 

[Vixen]

You're equivocating. The explanation is that the wing was poorly maintained, and did not stay attached to the fuselage in heavy turbulence. I find that explanation entirely satisfactory.

If some jackass told me, "a gust of wind blew the wing off", I'd ask them for details about what really happened and what the official explanation was. And once I had those details, I'd be satisfied.

You're trying to downplay the actual official explanation into something unsatisfactory, instead of being honest about what the real explanation is.

I am not downplaying anything. However, the report claims that the Swedish recovery team who recovered the bow visor, had no room in the helicopter for the bow visor bolts, so left them behind. Really?

 

[theprestige]

I am not downplaying anything. However, the report claims that the Swedish recovery team who recovered the bow visor, had no room in the helicopter for the bow visor bolts, so left them behind. Really?

Show me the claim. How big are the bolts? How big is the helicopter?

 

[Andy_Ross]

So the accident investigators of this 31-year-old cargo ship managed to recover the ship and the bodies of the dead.

But it's not possible for the Estonia?

Like the Herald of the Free Enterprise, this ship Lestari Maju beached within minutes.

wiki


Was the Indonesian government using a passenger ship to ferry highly dangerous military equipment, as the Swedish government was?

Because the ship was aground in shallow water, the captain deliberately put it aground. There were no passengers in the hull, those that died drowned after abandoning the ship.

How would you recover bodies from inside a shipwreck safely?

 

[theprestige]

I'm kind of enjoying Vixen's strategy of "your examples are all entirely different from the Estonia, and my examples are all completely identical to the Estonia."

 

[Andy_Ross]

Was the Indonesian government using a passenger ship to ferry highly dangerous military equipment, as the Swedish government was?

You have no evidence for this