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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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Jack by the hedge said:
I think we need to commission a new summary report on the thread as this summary is clearly garbage.
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Yes. I think it's clear that in fact nefarious forces have collided with this thread and holed it below the waterline, causing it to sink with astonishing speed. My thoughts go out to all the victims of this atrocity.
 
Vixen said:
I am sure trolling is great fun for you but for me it is just <YAWN> incredibly boring.
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Says the person who is repeatedly lying about what her interlocutors are saying and then attempting to shift the goalposts transparently when called on it.

So care to explain where the callous jokes we are all posting are? That's your claim remember.
 
Vixen said:
The Captain of the nearby M/S Viking Mariella had to use his handheld phone to contact the coastguards.


May Day should be done via the international channel 16. Tammes had to use another localised channel to communicate. The GPS locator which would have told the nearby vessels of the Estonia location was down. The ships ARIP (_?) buoys were inactive. Tammes had to go away and find out the vessel's location by manual means - five minutes wasted! - and in his nervousness initially gave the wrong coordinates, having to repeat it three times.

Helsinki used a pan-pan which does not have the same level of urgency as Channel 16 was down and it never received the initial reports. The JAIC blame Helsinki for using pan-pan instead of more urgent channels but the entire communications network was kaput as of the time of the accident.
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Storm conditions limit radio range, that would explain why a local transmission worked. If the ship lost power it's GPS would not be working. Heavy rain and cloud cover also limit GPS.

ARIP buoys are activated by immersion, they would not work if they were not immersed. There is no manual activation to stop false alarms.
ARIP buoys also have quite low power so would be limited by the storm.
ARIP buoys have a limited life as the batteries deteriorate and need to be replaced regularly.

Pan-Pan is not a channel.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Says the person who is repeatedly lying about what her interlocutors are saying and then attempting to shift the goalposts transparently when called on it.

So care to explain where the callous jokes we are all posting are? That's your claim remember.
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A recent one - and it is not even a joke - is the claim that sole Brit survivor Paul Barney, who has done his best to convey what happened in that incident and has worked hard to get to the root of the full story was by LoJo who claimed he was not bright enough to know how to make an FOI request.

Degrading someone just because the poster had a different view from yourself in a couple of previous topics is a rather nasty thing to do IMV.
 
Vixen said:
Yes, because in an interview Kate Adie said she had done a few intelligence-related jobs short of saying she was an actual agent.
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An interview you can't show us and in which it seems by your description she doesn't say she was an agent.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
An interview you can't show us and in which it seems by your description she doesn't say she was an agent.
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It was a by-the-by comment making the point that 'overseas correspondent' is a common cover for intelligence snooping, that is all. You can like it or leave it.

I just happened to recall Kate Adie saying in an interview that she had been involved with this type of stuff on occasion.

Given her extensive CV in war zones it would be surprising if she had not.
 
Vixen said:
I was pointing out the essential humanity of the victims because you have to admit there has been a steady stream of cruel and callous jokes about their fate,
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What steady stream of cruel and callous jokes? In this thread? :confused:

together with a brutal view that their loved ones should just accept the JAIC report and any concerns they may have make them conspiracy theory nutters, when the truth is far from it.
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No-one has proposed such a view in this thread, or least not as far as I'm aware of.
 
Vixen said:
It is a fact there is a massive hole in the starboard and which has been known about since the early days. Yet posters here keep claiming that is a conspiracy theory and that it must have been deformation from shifting in the seabed and that they should just accept that it was the bow visor and the hand of God.
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That's a flat-out lie. Nobody has called the existence of the hole in the Estonia a conspiracy theory.

They have called your absurd speculations about rogue KGB agents, mine laying submarines, torpedoes, bridge hijackings, etc. conspiracy theories.
 
JesseCuster said:
That's a flat-out lie. Nobody has called the existence of the hole in the Estonia a conspiracy theory.

They have called your absurd speculations about rogue KGB agents, mine laying submarines, torpedoes, bridge hijackings, etc. conspiracy theories.
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IMV it shows a great deal of ignorance to assume any mention of the KGB (in a country that was overseen by it up to 1991) or not knowing that the Baltic is heavily mined and one of the deadliest seas in history in terms of warfare and bitter conflicts over sovereignty of its waters or even of torpedoes, 'must be a conspiracy theory'. It shows a paucity of historical or political knowledge.

As to the unidentified man on the bridge, that was noted by the former head of the JAIC who had direct access to the reports and videos that the Swedish navy and Rockwater did. This character is formally mentioned in a report. It is hardly conspiracy theory just because you believe in a comfortably numb world where these things only happen in Marvel comics.

Maybe expand your awareness of the world outside of the USA?
 
Vixen said:
IMV it shows a great deal of ignorance to assume any mention of the KGB (in a country that was overseen by it up to 1991) or not knowing that the Baltic is heavily mined and one of the deadliest seas in history in terms of warfare and bitter conflicts over sovereignty of its waters or even of torpedoes, 'must be a conspiracy theory'. It shows a paucity of historical or political knowledge.

As to the unidentified man on the bridge, that was noted by the former head of the JAIC who had direct access to the reports and videos that the Swedish navy and Rockwater did. This character is formally mentioned in a report. It is hardly conspiracy theory just because you believe in a comfortably numb world where these things only happen in Marvel comics.

Maybe expand your awareness of the world outside of the USA?
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I thought you might find it helpful if I highlighted the part of your post where you're actually making a point.

The rest is just flinging abuse and a total waste of time. What do you think was achieved by writing it? Nobody said "any mention of the KGB" must be a conspiracy theory. The Estonia did not hit a mine.
 
Vixen said:
IMV it shows a great deal of ignorance to assume any mention of the KGB (in a country that was overseen by it up to 1991) or not knowing that the Baltic is heavily mined and one of the deadliest seas in history in terms of warfare and bitter conflicts over sovereignty of its waters or even of torpedoes, 'must be a conspiracy theory'.
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Nobody has said that "any mention of the KGB" is a conspiracy theory.

Nobody has said that the Baltic being mined is a conspiracy theory.

What they have said is that speculation about rogue KGB agents sinking the Estonia for revenge, mine laying minisubs sinking the Estonia, torpedo shooting submarines sinking the Estonia, accidental collisions with escorting British submarines sinking the Estonia, NATO naval exercises not responding to the disaster, Bill Clinton being involved in using the Estonia to smuggle arms to Israel, secret British escort submarines of a type that might not be known to the public etc. are all conspiracy theories.

Maybe expand your awareness of the world outside of the USA?
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I'm not American. What have I said about the world inside the USA that makes you think I need to expand my awareness of the world outside it? :confused:
 
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JesseCuster said:
Nobody has said that "any mention of the KGB" is a conspiracy theory.

Nobody has said that the Baltic being mined is a conspiracy theory.

What they have said is that speculation about rogue KGB agents sinking the Estonia for revenge, mine laying minisubs sinking the Estonia, torpedo shooting submarines sinking the Estonia, accidental collisions with escorting British submarines sinking the Estonia, NATO naval exercises not responding to the disaster, Bill Clinton being involved in using the Estonia to smuggle arms to Israel, secret British escort submarines of a type that might not be known to the public etc. are all conspiracy theories.

I'm not American. What have I said about the world inside the USA that makes you think I need to expand my awareness of the world outside it? :confused:
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You hush! Vixen can recognize an American a mile away. It is one more thing she is an expert at. You denying it is just a part of the conspiracy.
 
Vixen said:
As to the unidentified man on the bridge, that was noted by the former head of the JAIC who had direct access to the reports and videos that the Swedish navy and Rockwater did. This character is formally mentioned in a report. It is hardly conspiracy theory.
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It certainly is a conspiracy theory when you speculate that it might be the body of someone who was involved in hijacking the bridge of the Estonia.
 
JesseCuster said:
It certainly is a conspiracy theory when you speculate that it might be the body of someone who was involved in hijacking the bridge of the Estonia.
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Not my speculation; the claims of Head of the JAIC and maritime expert Andi Meister, who states that divers noted Captain Andresson with a bullet in his head (claim the divers) therefore, if this is true and they did see this then it is reasonable to speculate whether the unknown character with a tattoo on his hand was some kind of hijacker.
 
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