The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

[Vixen]

So what this says is they had to knock off the search due to weather, and misinterpreted sonar clutter for the hood. When they resumed they realized it wasn't the hood and the search continued.

You don't think it odd that this 'sonar clutter' had exactly the same dimensions and density as the bow visor and even seemed to be in the correct vicinity?

I guess it is another example of someone seeing Jesus' face in a piece of burnt toast...NOT_!

 

[Vixen]

Well, towards the maximum end of that range, it would roar. So it would be proper to say more of a gradient. Let's propose that there's a positive association between the amount of water entering and the resulting volume. Okay.

Now recall the ship is proceeding in a turbulent head sea. There's a lot of torque noises coming from the hull, this wasn't a luxury liner inching along on a Caribbean island pub crawl. This ship was cracking on and with the list issue, I'd add the embellishment dipping her leeward fore chains into the foam.

People couldn't hear each other shouting, you say? Well, my understanding of speech intelligibility standards tells me that if you can't hear shouting nearby because of what I imagine would be something like white noise at 100+ dB (but far more complex with waves cascading along the hull strake, wind howling then whipping directions, metal creaks, etc), then I don't place high reliability on them hearing and specifically remarking about one more kind of roaring (i.e. "broadband" noise that covers a wide portion of the human hearing spectrum). The louder the environment, the fewer independent "bands" of focus your cochlea can maintain. It is 3 or less above 90 dB. And that's "programming" (an identifiable voice, instrument, animal call, etc) material without broadband interference.

Plus it has been repeatedly covered that the water would have "lapped" in at each forward pitch of the vessel. It would not come shooting in like a water jet, the ramp was above the "waterline" but with the rolling seas, it was of course smothered in water at times. So there's no high pressure blasting kind of aspect like naval flooding simulators going on. The water was (from a relative perspective from the POV of the very front of the car deck) basically being propelled upward and over the entry ramp in successive waves. Depending on the exact timing and interpolation of the vessel pitching and wave action, some of the water might even break back and recede out again. A much more rhythmic action like a strong tide on the rocks. Noisy, lots of slaps at the crash, mist, and foam, and sloshing.

It could easily go uncomprehended amidst all the other loud noises I have and haven't covered. Especially by anyone not literally on the car deck and probably fairly far forward, at that.

Fair enough. However, by the time the people were on the deck the ship was already sinking fast. The people in the lowest cabins were under the car deck and towards the front mentioned bangs and a sledgehammer noise rather than the generic sound of ingressing water. Also, it the seawater seeped in little by little then the crew would have had a real chance to reverse the situation or at least a real chance to evacuate the ship properly. For example, once the Titanic hit the iceberg and was known to be sinking, there was two and a half hours to arrange lifeboats and an orderly evacuation (but of course, they were short of them).

 

[Kid Eager]

You don't think it odd that this 'sonar clutter' had exactly the same dimensions and density as the bow visor and even seemed to be in the correct vicinity?

I guess it is another example of someone seeing Jesus' face in a piece of burnt toast...NOT_!

Citation, please (sonar claim, not toast).

 

[Vixen]

What does his body temperature when he was rescued have something to do with whether or not he's a conspiracy theorist? Nothing, but you think we should feel bad because we're being mean and awful to the victims of the Estonia disaster when we disagree with any conspiracy theories that Vixen is shotgunning the thread with.

Your attempts to make people feel bad because they agree with anything you say is frankly pathetic, you want people who disagree with you when you discuss anything to with Paul Barney, by making them feel bad for disagreeing with anything to do with him, because the poor man suffered so much, and we are bad mean people for not buying into conspiracy theories based on anything he said.

Earlier in this thread you reference a 2 month old victim of the Estonia disaster in a disgusting attempt to frame your opponents in this as shameful hateful people who don't want justice for a 2 month old dead baby. Your cheap attempts at hamfistedly shaming your opponents are painfully obvious and really portray you in a very poor light.

Equally obnoxious are your attempts to portray everyone else as a bunch of mindless sheep who read the Daily Mail and watch Fox News and can't think for themselves but need Rupert Murdoch to tell them what to believe. Nobody in this thread has actually said anything or displayed any behaviour to lead you to think this, but you're just insulting them anyway as an attempt to portray them as mindless sheep and yourself as some sort of intellectually superior crusader for truth. It's truly ironic because this is so straight out of the conspiracy theorist playbook, it's absolutely a truther trope, yet you insist that you're not a conspiracy theorist. Well then, perhaps you should stop acting like one if you don't want to be viewed as one.

I haven't tried to make anyone feel bad. I was pointing out the essential humanity of the victims because you have to admit there has been a steady stream of cruel and callous jokes about their fate, together with a brutal view that their loved ones should just accept the JAIC report and any concerns they may have make them conspiracy theory nutters, when the truth is far from it.

 

[LondonJohn]

I haven't tried to make anyone feel bad. I was pointing out the essential humanity of the victims because you have to admit there has been a steady stream of cruel and callous jokes about their fate, together with a brutal view that their loved ones should just accept the JAIC report and any concerns they may have make them conspiracy theory nutters, when the truth is far from it.

I'm sorry? "There has been a steady stream of cruel and callous jokes about their fate"? And "...a brutal view that...."?

You just cannot help yourself, can you? Disgusting.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hey Vixen: what's your opinion of the "journalist" Graham Phillips? Is he, in your view, a fellow traveller on the road to enlightenment and truth in the face of sinister big-government attempts to silence him? Or do you think he is simply the latest in a line of agitator-nutters attempting to whip up conspiracy theories in order to a) stick it to "the man", and/or b) make his name as the man who "finally uncovered the truth that the government never wanted you to know"?

 

[Vixen]

Citation, please (sonar claim, not toast).

A Swedish group called AgnEf asked the Swedish Maritime for a copy of the sonar image and the attached is what they received. It clearly shows the triangular outline that matches the bow visor and was obtained between 2 to the 8th October 1994 (the accident was 28 Sept 1994). Lehtola chairman of the Finnish side of the JAIC sent a memo saying the bow visor had been identified on the sonar image, 9 Oct 1994. The next day he sent another memo saying the bow visor was 'still missing' (!) even though there had not been any time to check that the shape in the sonar image was not the visor. Lehtola claimed it was a sundry piece of plate metal in his memo. And that was the last time it was ever mentioned. Nobody ever bothered to locate this piece of scrap metal.

The bow visor was then 'found' 18 October 1994 some 1,000m away to the west, also by sonar imaging.

Source of image: Heiwa co.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh yes. That's what it "clearly" shows.

 

[Vixen]

Hey Vixen: what's your opinion of the "journalist" Graham Phillips? Is he, in your view, a fellow traveller on the road to enlightenment and truth in the face of sinister big-government attempts to silence him? Or do you think he is simply the latest in a line of agitator-nutters attempting to whip up conspiracy theories in order to a) stick it to "the man", and/or b) make his name as the man who "finally uncovered the truth that the government never wanted you to know"?

If you search the thread, I already mentioned he is a Russophile who worked for a Russian radio/tv station when he was arrested or captured by nationalists for agitating in the Ukraine. This comment was in the context of the Estonia video he produced featuring Paul Barney in which he launched into scathing and vitriolic invective against Jutta Rabe's film, Baltic Storm 2003, which is available on You Tube and gives a jolly good account IMV. I pointed out that he likely hates Rabe because she blames the Russians.

Like many secret agents Phillips likely uses the mantel of 'investigative journalist' (cf Kate Adey) to nose about the affairs of other states. Not that I know whether he is a spy or not.

 

[Vixen]

I'm sorry? "There has been a steady stream of cruel and callous jokes about their fate"? And "...a brutal view that...."?

You just cannot help yourself, can you? Disgusting.

It is a fact there is a massive hole in the starboard and which has been known about since the early days. Yet posters here keep claiming that is a conspiracy theory and that it must have been deformation from shifting in the seabed and that they should just accept that it was the bow visor and the hand of God.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You don't think it odd that this 'sonar clutter' had exactly the same dimensions and density as the bow visor and even seemed to be in the correct vicinity?

I guess it is another example of someone seeing Jesus' face in a piece of burnt toast...NOT_!

Sonar is reflected sound waves. Differences in salinity and temperature at different depths can block and distort sonar or return 'phantom' echoes.
A shoal of fish can give a return that could look like a single solid object.
Submarines take advantage of this to hide from and fool warships searching for them.

 

[LondonJohn]

If you search the thread, I already mentioned he is a Russophile who worked for a Russian radio/tv station when he was arrested or captured by nationalists for agitating in the Ukraine. This comment was in the context of the Estonia video he produced featuring Paul Barney in which he launched into scathing and vitriolic invective against Jutta Rabe's film, Baltic Storm 2003, which is available on You Tube and gives a jolly good account IMV. I pointed out that he likely hates Rabe because she blames the Russians.

Like many secret agents Phillips likely uses the mantel of 'investigative journalist' (cf Kate Adey) to nose about the affairs of other states. Not that I know whether he is a spy or not.

I know what he's done. I just wanted to know what you think about him.

However, I would point out that the evidence in no way supports the suggestion that he's any kind of secret agent. Rather, I suspect that the Russians have used him as a sort of "useful idiot". And your claim that Kate Adie (note the proper spelling of her name...) is also a secret agent is laughably incorrect.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is a fact there is a massive hole in the starboard and which has been known about since the early days. Yet posters here keep claiming that is a conspiracy theory and that it must have been deformation from shifting in the seabed and that they should just accept that it was the bow visor and the hand of God.

See what I mean....?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Fair enough. However, by the time the people were on the deck the ship was already sinking fast. The people in the lowest cabins were under the car deck and towards the front mentioned bangs and a sledgehammer noise rather than the generic sound of ingressing water. Also, it the seawater seeped in little by little then the crew would have had a real chance to reverse the situation or at least a real chance to evacuate the ship properly. For example, once the Titanic hit the iceberg and was known to be sinking, there was two and a half hours to arrange lifeboats and an orderly evacuation (but of course, they were short of them).

But the crew didn't properly investigate the bow visor, none of the engineers or command team went forward to investigate any 'seeping' at all.
What would the sound of 'ingressing' water sound like compared to the other sounds of the storm?
When they knew the ship was in difficulty they didn't muster the passengers and made no attempt to properly evacuate the ship. They delayed sending a mayday and never sent a pan-pan at all.

Titanic was in a calm and was a lot bigger than the Estonia

 

[Vixen]

Sonar is reflected sound waves. Differences in salinity and temperature at different depths can block and distort sonar or return 'phantom' echoes.
A shoal of fish can give a return that could look like a single solid object.
Submarines take advantage of this to hide from and fool warships searching for them.

In fact, there is an anecdote that former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt became so obsessed with catching out Russian submarines furtively schlepping about in Swedish waters, he called a press conference condemning an unidentified object moving through its waters by sonar imaging and blaming the Russians. To Bildt's great embarrassment, this 'object' turned out to be a herd of lemmings swimming through the water, so now the Swedish navy has a term relating to 'animal matter' directly relating back to this incident to refer to this phenomena.

Even if the triangular object, which is even referred to as 'plate metal' by Lehtola in his second memo retracting his claim they had located the bow visor so I doubt it refers to a shoal of fish in this instance. In any case, you would think that the various investigations of the wreck would at least find this piece of plate metal if only to identify what it was that showed up in the sonar imaging and rule it out as the bow visor.

 

[Vixen]

I know what he's done. I just wanted to know what you think about him.

However, I would point out that the evidence in no way supports the suggestion that he's any kind of secret agent. Rather, I suspect that the Russians have used him as a sort of "useful idiot". And your claim that Kate Adie (note the proper spelling of her name...) is also a secret agent is laughably incorrect.

She admitted she was some of the time in an interview. I think Graham Phillips is a typical British eccentric. Pretty harmless.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I haven't tried to make anyone feel bad. I was pointing out the essential humanity of the victims because you have to admit there has been a steady stream of cruel and callous jokes about their fate, together with a brutal view that their loved ones should just accept the JAIC report and any concerns they may have make them conspiracy theory nutters, when the truth is far from it.

Where are the jokes?

 

[Vixen]

But the crew didn't properly investigate the bow visor, none of the engineers or command team went forward to investigate any 'seeping' at all.
What would the sound of 'ingressing' water sound like compared to the other sounds of the storm?
When they knew the ship was in difficulty they didn't muster the passengers and made no attempt to properly evacuate the ship. They delayed sending a mayday and never sent a pan-pan at all.

Titanic was in a calm and was a lot bigger than the Estonia

I am not sure it is fair to blame the crew for the disaster. Sure, they were woefully ill-prepared - although they knew when to get the warm clothing and survivors suits on and to ensure they got a life raft! - plus I believe they were worn down by interrogations into playing along with the JAIC line (nobody wants to be blamed for the deaths of 900 people). However, the ship sank so fast from the first sign of trouble, it isn't realistic to expect any great success in evacuation. In addition, the chief Finnish Coastguard at the time, Heimo Iivonoen said in his report to the JAIC that there was continuous signal interference from the Russians for the duration of the accident plus the international May Day channel 16 was down from 1:02 to 1:58 for the entire duration of the accident - there was no VHF signal at all as by coincidence the entire network was down. In addition, Helsinki had to use a pan-pan to get the SOS out yet many important personnel involved in coast guard rescue never received it. It was heroic of Tammes to even get through at all.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A Swedish group called AgnEf asked the Swedish Maritime for a copy of the sonar image and the attached is what they received. It clearly shows the triangular outline that matches the bow visor and was obtained between 2 to the 8th October 1994 (the accident was 28 Sept 1994). Lehtola chairman of the Finnish side of the JAIC sent a memo saying the bow visor had been identified on the sonar image, 9 Oct 1994. The next day he sent another memo saying the bow visor was 'still missing' (!) even though there had not been any time to check that the shape in the sonar image was not the visor. Lehtola claimed it was a sundry piece of plate metal in his memo. And that was the last time it was ever mentioned. Nobody ever bothered to locate this piece of scrap metal.

The bow visor was then 'found' 18 October 1994 some 1,000m away to the west, also by sonar imaging.

Source of image: Heiwa co.

Where does it 'clearly show' this?

What is your explanation?
Is the image a forgery?
Was the visor moved a 1000m?

 

[Andy_Ross]

In fact, there is an anecdote that former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt became so obsessed with catching out Russian submarines furtively schlepping about in Swedish waters, he called a press conference condemning an unidentified object moving through its waters by sonar imaging and blaming the Russians. To Bildt's great embarrassment, this 'object' turned out to be a herd of lemmings swimming through the water, so now the Swedish navy has a term relating to 'animal matter' directly relating back to this incident to refer to this phenomena.

Even if the triangular object, which is even referred to as 'plate metal' by Lehtola in his second memo retracting his claim they had located the bow visor so I doubt it refers to a shoal of fish in this instance. In any case, you would think that the various investigations of the wreck would at least find this piece of plate metal if only to identify what it was that showed up in the sonar imaging and rule it out as the bow visor.

How do lemmings show on sonar?

If there was nothing there but a phantom echo why would they find anything?

How do you explain what is seen in that image?