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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
I was talking about chronology. Posters are erroneously claiming that a person cannot have been disappeared if they turn up later. Terrible reasoning.
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No, posters are not claiming that. It's been explained to you in considerable detail what constitutes a person being disappeared by a state. The two Egyptians were not disappeared by Sweden. No matter how often you return to this they will still not have been disappeared by Sweden. They do not provide your desired example of Sweden disappearing people. They never will.
 
Vixen said:
OK OK I guess for a Swede falling from a winch and having to treadwater until someone rescued him, would command the highest medal for bravery.






[NB that was a joke before anybody gets upset.]
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I guess 'joke' should be added to the list of words and phrases that Vixen defines in a...novel way.
 
Vixen said:
Svensson got the highest medal of the Swedish Defence Forces - some ten years before the shot-down DC-3 pilots - so he must have done something.
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Maybe he did something on a different helicopter on that earlier flight you say was logged.

Which helicopter was logged?
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Ok, two questions spring to mind.

1. What is your source then? Because it's been pointed out that your argument exactly mirrors his. I'm sure that you got your info from somewhere else though.

2. When you say you would see them for what they are, what exactly do you mean?
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My source? I have been following this story ever since the day I heard the news, so the sources are myriad (no not that one).

Sometimes, when an expert in his field or an investigative journalist is trashed, it can be because they are too close to the truth (cf David Kelly and the Weapons of Mass Destruction) so their reputations are smeared in the press, or alternatively, disinformation agents do the opposite, in order to depict them as extremists and lunatics, whilst pretending to promulgate the same views and aligning them with unsavoury types.

This is why it is important for people to think for themselves instead of mindlessly accepting what they are told.
 
Vixen said:
The interesting thing about the Egyptian case is that it was the CIA who requested Sweden send the men to Egypt. Since when was Sweden a member of the USA?
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It would not have been the CIA, it would have been the State Department.

Countries cooperate with each other all the time.
 
Vixen said:
It doesn't release the buoy until it is under one to four metres (12 feet and a bit) of water. Hence the term hydrostatic release.


How can any crew member manually activate it when the ship is at that stage?



.
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It is released before the ship sinks by opening the catch.

How do you think it opens? they have to open it to put the buoy inside in the first place.

Even automatic buoys should be taken out, activated manually and thrown in to the sea before the ship sinks or taken aboard a life raft.
 
Vixen said:
Svensson got the highest medal of the Swedish Defence Forces - some ten years before the shot-down DC-3 pilots - so he must have done something.
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Yes, we know what he did, it is well documented.

The shot down aircrew were recognised for their sacrifice, they didn't actually do anything other than get killed.
 
Vixen said:
Not necessarily. Terry Waite disappeared as a hostage for several years. The fact he reappeared and was alive does not cancel out the fact he was disappeared by his captors.
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He did not 'disappear' it was known that the was being held hostage.
 
Vixen said:
OK OK I guess for a Swede falling from a winch and having to treadwater until someone rescued him, would command the highest medal for bravery.






[NB that was a joke before anybody gets upset.]
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Why is that particular comment a joke when all the other comments of exactly the same type aren't jokes?
 
Vixen said:
Er, something other than what the JAIC describes.
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The JAIC didn't describe that an alien spaceship sunk Estonia by firing a laser cannon at its bow.

So obviously that is what happened.

And it is more realistic explanation than most of what you gorge out.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
We know Y 64 was not one of the first helicopters in the air , it was the 7th to arrive.

Are you now saying one of the earlier helicopters kidnapped the officers?
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And if that's the case, Svensson's "hush medal" makes even less sense. Why would he and only he be given a medal for flights he didn't even take part in?

The only helicopter that left Berga before Y 64 was Y 65, and its flight timeline overlaps Y64's. Also Y65 ended up not bringing back any survivors because of a broken winch.

That really was not a good day for Swedish winches.
 
Vixen said:
And what about the DC-3 pilots shot down by the Soviets in Swedish waters near Gotland? For over forty years, Sweden nonchalantly whistled and pretended it had no idea of the whereabouts or fate of the missing airmen.
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What does that have to do with anything? You have no evidence that Sweden "disappeared" the officers of the ferry. Grasping at every opportunity to trash Sweden for other reasons doesn't fix that.
 
Vixen said:
They were on a top secret, highly dangerous stealth mission, protecting the security of the west.
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It was something that had been done many times before, it was routine. It was stealthy but not 'highly dangerous'.
They di ddeserve their medals though.

You will notice that since 2007 the medal has been awarded four times for unspecified reasons to unnamed individuals.
That is how it is done for secret stuff. You don't invent fake stories for the press and parade the recipients for interviews.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
And if that's the case, Svensson's "hush medal" makes even less sense. Why would he and only he be given a medal for flights he didn't even take part in?

The only helicopter that left Berga before Y 64 was Y 65, and its flight timeline overlaps Y64's. Also Y65 ended up not bringing back any survivors because of a broken winch.

That really was not a good day for Swedish winches.
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The 'Y' helicopters were not SAR helicopters, they were Anti Submarine helicopters. They would not have been fitted with winches designed for continual heavy use like a SAR helicopter.
I wouldn't think they had done much winching at all prior to the Estonia.
 
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