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The Placebo Effect

Which particular data are you claiming that Harvard researchers totally messed up?
It isn't always that the researchers messed it up, though sometimes it is. Usually it's the journalists that mess it up. Those outlets that reprint press releases verbatim - press releases written by the university's media team, not the scientists themselves.

Anyway, I don't have the citations. I'm sure they'll be coming in future articles. The site has a whole category for placebo effect articles, which currently contains exactly one article. More are on the way. We just need to be patient.
 
I just don't understand how someone cannot accept that the "placebo effect" is a real thing, that can comfort people and bring them some sort of peace. I mean, consider religion, for example.
 
I just don't understand how someone cannot accept that the "placebo effect" is a real thing, that can comfort people and bring them some sort of peace. I mean, consider religion, for example.


The placebo effect is a real thing. It consists of several simultaneous mechanisms.
 
Actually, if placebo isn’t a real thing, then nocebo also is not a real thing. I even believe that nocebo is far more powerful than placebo.

I have myself experience how my surroundings were trying to impose a nocebo on me when I had an infection that caused me to be dehydrated. I went to a doctor who took a quick glance at me and told me to go home and drink a lot (proper salts added). However, my family insisted I been treated horribly, and that I was dying, and should be sent to the hospital. Later same day, I was clearly recovering, but I had difficulty convincing anybody else until a couple of days later.
 
I just don't understand how someone cannot accept that the "placebo effect" is a real thing, that can comfort people and bring them some sort of peace. I mean, consider religion, for example.

Whether or not placebo is a thing, I don't think religion is a good example there. I mean, we even have a study where people that had been told that a pastor and group of believers would be praying for their surgery... well, let's just say it worked as a nocebo, not a placebo.
 
It isn't always that the researchers messed it up, though sometimes it is. Usually it's the journalists that mess it up. Those outlets that reprint press releases verbatim - press releases written by the university's media team, not the scientists themselves.
Doctors don't believe that the placebo effect is real because a journalist misquoted the results of some research.

Anyway, I don't have the citations. I'm sure they'll be coming in future articles. The site has a whole category for placebo effect articles, which currently contains exactly one article. More are on the way. We just need to be patient.
If you were really going to debunk the placebo effect then you would have to analyze the studies that suggest that it is real and point out the deficiencies in those studies.

The mere fact that you have no citations shows that you have a long way to go if you are going to debunk the placebo effect.
 
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Whether or not placebo is a thing, I don't think religion is a good example there. I mean, we even have a study where people that had been told that a pastor and group of believers would be praying for their surgery... well, let's just say it worked as a nocebo, not a placebo.
The bar for whether prayer is effective or not is generally set higher than that of a standard placebo.

If it doesn't result in the regeneration of a limb or organ then prayer is generally dismissed as woo regardless of any other improvements that might be observed with a patient.
 
I just don't understand how someone cannot accept that the "placebo effect" is a real thing, that can comfort people and bring them some sort of peace. I mean, consider religion, for example.
There is a difference between a placebo effect that gives someone comfort and peace and the "powerful placebo" effect that people believe actually causes real physiological healing.
 
That isn't what you claimed earlier. You claimed that the University's media team (or journalists) misrepresented what the researchers concluded and nobody noticed. That is verging on CT status.
I claimed both, because both are true. But I was speaking on a general basis, and not referring to any specific paper or university.

Let me be clear:

In some cases, the science was good, but it was misunderstood by media teams or journalists and misleading claims were made in the press.

In other cases, the science was poorly controlled and did not account for certain variables, leading to shaky conclusions, and misleading claims were made in the press.

In other cases, other things happened which cast doubt on the conclusion that placebos can have a powerful and measurable effect. There are many factors involved in this myth.

Mike has gone in-depth into most of these issues over the course of many episodes of his podcast, examining many examples, and shown how they contribute to the "powerful placebo" myth that placebos have an actual organic healing effect that was comparable to genuine interventions ("over and above placebo", as we would otherwise say).

For example (one single example out of many), Mike showed in one episode that Ben Goldacre cited sources in his book that he claimed demonstrate certain things (such as "a blue placebo pill is more effective than a red placebo pill"), but that the sources in question actually did not demonstrate. Mike showed this by actually going to the cited papers and reading from them directly.

This is one of his methods. He takes something someone has claimed is demonstrated by science, goes to the actual published science, and shows that it does not demonstrate that at all. Or if it does, he shows how it did not account for certain variables. Or that it was based on a tiny sample size. Or something else. All this, taken together, convincingly argues (to me, at least) that the "powerful placebo" effect is not real.

Have I gone into enough detail yet? He's been doing this for six years now so dredging up more examples from memory is going to be tricky. As I have said, I anticipate more articles on the UK Skeptic website in the future, at which point it will be easier to back up what I'm saying.
 
The bar for whether prayer is effective or not is generally set higher than that of a standard placebo.


No, it isn't generally set higher. You are confusing studies of prayer with Emile Zola's aphorism: The road to Lourdes is littered with crutches, but not one wooden leg.

If it doesn't result in the regeneration of a limb or organ then prayer is generally dismissed as woo regardless of any other improvements that might be observed with a patient.


God is supposed to be omnipotent. Placebo isn't.
"Any other improvements that might be observed with a patient" are what you would expect from the body's ability to heal itself.
 
God is supposed to be omnipotent. Placebo isn't.
"Any other improvements that might be observed with a patient" are what you would expect from the body's ability to heal itself.
Thus proving what I said. If prayer doesn't bring about better results than a placebo then prayer has failed.
 
Thus proving what I said. If prayer doesn't bring about better results than a placebo then prayer has failed.
That's right. We as science-interested skeptics know this. But it is often framed in the public consciousness that when a placebo brings about the same results as prayer, the placebo has worked.
 
That's right. We as science-interested skeptics know this. But it is often framed in the public consciousness that when a placebo brings about the same results as prayer, the placebo has worked.
I have never heard it "framed in the public consciousness" like that before.
 
I have never heard it "framed in the public consciousness" like that before.
Then you've lived a pretty sheltered life. Almost any time someone (who is not a doctor or a clinical researcher) talks about a placebo, they're making the assumption that the placebo has a genuine clinical effect, over and above what can be accounted for by other factors.

I most often hear it as "even if it is a placebo, it still works, so why not use it?" Particularly when discussing things like homeopathy.
 
Then you've lived a pretty sheltered life. Almost any time someone (who is not a doctor or a clinical researcher) talks about a placebo, they're making the assumption that the placebo has a genuine clinical effect, over and above what can be accounted for by other factors.

I most often hear it as "even if it is a placebo, it still works, so why not use it?" Particularly when discussing things like homeopathy.
That has nothing to do with "when a placebo brings about the same results as prayer, the placebo has worked".

Until you can link to the study that has been misinterpreted and show how it has been misinterpreted your podcaster has nothing.
 
That has nothing to do with "when a placebo brings about the same results as prayer, the placebo has worked".

Until you can link to the study that has been misinterpreted and show how it has been misinterpreted your podcaster has nothing.
One more time for the kiddies at home.

Over the course of many episodes, Mike cited many different published papers. So far, he has written only one article, touching on one of those papers. More should be forthcoming, but writing takes time and he has a day job.

When more articles are published, be assured that I will report them here.
 

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