The Mosul Attack

[gnome]

Let's look at this from the perspective of an American GI. The Geneva Convention protects GIs guarding and interrogating prisoners. The GC clearly states what behaviors are acceptable. GIs know what the GC says they can and cannot do. As long as they follow the GC they cannot be prosecuted for their handling of prisoners. Once they are told the GC does not apply, they have no guidelines for what is acceptable unless hey are given clear instructions. Since no one is willing to put in writing what torture is acceptable, the GIs may find themselves charged with crimes one day for behaviour their superiors did not object to the day before.

The GC protects American troops. If their superiors want the trroops to disregard the GC they should spell out what is acceptable and what is not, i.e. what guidelines are replacing the GC. Absent such clear guidelines it is cowardly for their commanders to let them be prosecuted for excesses and not take responsibility for failing to protect them with proper instructions.

DAMN right... if you plan on ordering it, have the balls to say you ordered it, instead of sticking it to the GI's when it comes to light.

 

[hgc]

rik and the other torture apologists,

Who said this?

First, people in Iraq must understand that I view those practices as abhorrent. They must also understand that what took place in that prison does not represent the America that I know.

We have nothing to hide. We believe in transparency because we're a free society. That's what free societies do. If there's a problem, they address those problems in a forthright, up-front manner. And that's what's taking place.

That was George W. Bush, on May 5. Are his words consistent with your position?

 

[DavidJames]

rik and the other torture apologists,

Who said this?That was George W. Bush, on May 5. Are his words consistent with your position?

In this case I agree 100% with GWB.

by GWB
We believe in transparency because we're a free society.

Sadly GWB's actions related to the above quote are sorely deficient.

 

[Crossbow]

Amen DavidJames!

That was very well said and it does reflect my opinion quite well.

 

[zenith-nadir]

... please inform us what specific crimes these people have done, what acts of terrorism they have commited.

... going way out on a limb here, but would you care to provide evidence for any of those claims.

... Eh? Requests for evidence from a guy with a biased sig line filled with logical fallacies?.

I feel that 99% of the time for one to be sent to Gitmo one has had to have done something to be sent there. I feel 99% of the time for one to be in prison one has had to do something to be there also. While mistakes do happen and innocent people are incarcerated in error more often than not the people in prison are there because they did something wrong.

Others feel the opposite, they seem to feel that eventhought people are in Gitmo they have done nothing to deserve being there and should be released without question. They feel the Gitmo prisoners are innocent civlians caught up in the evil machinations of the cruel American military. It's like 9-11 never happened and it is America who is the "bad guy". Truely ironic.

 

[gnome]

Others feel the opposite, they seem to feel that eventhought people are in Gitmo they have done nothing to deserve being there and should be released without question. They feel the Gitmo prisoners are innocent civlians caught up in the evil machinations of the cruel American military. It's like 9-11 never happened and it is America who is the "bad guy". Truely ironic.

This is where you consistently misunderstand. I don't feel that the GTMO prisoners are innocent civilians. I simply feel that there are certain things we have no business doing to ANYONE, especially not hidden behind secrecy and lies.

 

[a_unique_person]

I feel that 99% of the time for one to be sent to Gitmo one has had to have done something to be sent there. I feel 99% of the time for one to be in prison one has had to do something to be there also. While mistakes do happen and innocent people are incarcerated in error more often than not the people in prison are there because they did something wrong.

Others feel the opposite, they seem to feel that eventhought people are in Gitmo they have done nothing to deserve being there and should be released without question. They feel the Gitmo prisoners are innocent civlians caught up in the evil machinations of the cruel American military. It's like 9-11 never happened and it is America who is the "bad guy". Truely ironic.

People in prison have a trial, and a chance to dispute evidence, and are told what the charges against them are.

Cox and Forknum? King of the strawmen.

 

[Nikk]

I feel that 99% of the time for one to be sent to Gitmo one has had to have done something to be sent there. I feel 99% of the time for one to be in prison one has had to do something to be there also. While mistakes do happen and innocent people are incarcerated in error more often than not the people in prison are there because they did something wrong.

You know when you consider all these people who have disliked and hated jews over the centuries, ......... I mean, well, there must be a good reason for the way they feel.

Don't you agree.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You know when you consider all these people who have disliked and hated jews over the centuries, ......... I mean, well, there must be a good reason for the way they feel. Don't you agree.

So because I - a jew - feel the Gitmo prisoners are there because of something they did rather than something they didn't do one has good reason to dislike jews? Hahahaha, you are obviously insane or simply a bigot, I personally could care less after that statement.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
People in prison have a trial, and a chance to dispute evidence, and are told what the charges against them are.

Unless you are an "unlawful combatant", then you get squat. Sorry that's the way the cookie crumbles. I have no sympathy for members of the Taliban or Al Queda.... 0%, none, nada, zilch. Sorry if that makes me evil but I distinctly remember that the Taliban who helped Al Queda didn't give the people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or the aircraft "a chance to dispute evidence, or told what the charges against them were'.

 

[jay gw]

What the UN should do if it can stop the scandalizing for a few minutes, is to write NEW codes for everyone not a prisoner of war.

In the 21st century, it looks like terrorism will be around for awhile. Since that's the case, what the UN should do is to make amendments to the Geneva Convention, this time for enemy combatants/non military combatants. There are no rules for them, and that goes to the "why?" of it.

There have been plenty of resistance etc. fighters. Why hasn't the UN written rules for their treatment??

You're saying that the French who fought the Nazis in the resistance were military officers? No they weren't.

The UN has had a VERY long time to create rules for non military people caught in the middle of wars. What have they done? Nothing. Why?

Because they're too busy stealing.

 

[a_unique_person]

The UN has had a VERY long time to create rules for non military people caught in the middle of wars. What have they done? Nothing. Why?

Because they're too busy stealing.

The UN is, once again, the sum of it's members. If the member countries wanted such an action done, it would be. I think the example the US set in regard to the ICC is a guide. That is, everyone thinks it's a good idea to do this, but no-one wants to be bound by it.

http://www.worldfederalistscanada.org/icc_pko.htm

 

[banquetbear]

My position is that some JREF liberals allude that Gitmo is a holding place for innocent Afghanis so Americans can flaunt the Geneva Convention and torcher them there. I differ with that "opinion".

Probability states that the majority of the people in Gitmo are there becasue A) they were caught in battle, B) they are members of the Taliban, C) they are memebers of Al Queda. The chances that America transports "civilians" to Gitmo for fun and torcher is too low to contemplate.

...you don't really know much about Guantanamo Bay at all, do you? Ever heard of Abassin Sayed?

Abassin Sayed was an inmate number 671 at Guantanamo Bay. He was released after thirteen months of captivity. According to Sayed, he was driving his Taxi in Gardez when he was stopped at an Afgani run roadblock. Although he protested his innocence at the time, he was turned over to American forces and transported to Cuba. Among other claims by Sayed, he says that those running the road block received "bounty payments" for everybody turned over to the American Forces.

Lights were kept on for 24 hours a day at Guantanamo. When Sayed had problems with his knees, he was told to exercise them by the military doctor, when he did those exercises he was put into solitary confinement for five days. He was interrogated eleven times, for periods of six to seven hours at a time. Then, after thirteen months of captivity, was released.

As a result of the incarceration, he has problems with his eyes, his skin, and his knees. He was unable to financially support his family for the time he was in captivity. He was never declared "innocent" by the American authorities, however he was made to sign papers promising that he would never to engage with the Taliban or Al-Qaeda, or harm the United States. He was given no monetary compensation for his time in captivity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programm...ght/2968458.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/sp...eguantanamo.txt

...Sayed's case was one of the most publicised cases primarily because his father lobbyed for his release almost immediately on his inncarceration-a luxury many others didn't have. In this older article (December 2002, since the article was written, many of those detained may have been released), we can see a profile of many of those that got shipped to Cuba:

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-gitmo2...0,2294365.story
(registration may be required... )

"There are a lot of guilty [people] in there," said one officer, "but there's a lot of farmers in there too."

...snip...

One prisoner was transferred because he was Arab by birth and had once fought for the Taliban, thereby meeting two key screening criteria. But before the war he had sustained such a massive head injury that he could utter little more than his name and was known by interrogators at Guantanamo Bay as "half-head Bob."

"He had basically had a combat lobotomy," the interrogator said. "Every [intelligence report] on him from Afghanistan said, 'No value, no value, don't send him.' "

Others were grabbed by Pakistani soldiers patrolling the Afghan border who collected bounties for prisoners, sources said. One such prisoner was captured at a restaurant near the border where he claimed to have lived and worked for 20 years.

"He had the mental capacity to put flatbread in an oven and that was the extent of his intellect," the interrogator said. "He never got trained on a rifle, never got pressed into service. But he was Arab by birth so he was picked up and sent away."

Other detainees seemed to get caught up in the military's bureaucratic machinery. In many cases, low-value prisoners caught early in the war were placed at the bottom of prioritized lists. But as planeloads of prisoners were sent to Cuba, names at the bottoms of the lists drifted to the top, and some started showing up on flight manifests.

Once they appeared on the manifests, sources said, removing them proved almost impossible. Doing so required senior intelligence officers in Kuwait or Afghanistan to work through thickets of military red tape. It also required them to trust the judgment of junior intelligence officers, something they were loath to do given the stakes.

...so it appears that some people ended up at Guantanamo because of "clerical errors" that were too hard to fix.

United States Senator Cornwyn said that "I'm satisfied that the 660 at Guantanamo Bay are among the baddest of the bad." It appeared that at least some of those 660 were bakers, farmers, businessman, lower level militia, and taxi drivers.

...and countary to popular belief, not all of the prisoners Guantanamo were captured in Afghanistan. Four British men were arrested in Gambia, questioned for 27 days with no access to lawyers or the British High Commission, before two of them were shipped off to Bagram. Another British detainee was taken from his bed in Pakistan. Five men in Bosnia, who were due to be released due to [BOLD] lack of evidence [/BOLD] over a plot to blow up British and American embassies, were instead released to American Forces and taken to Guantanamo, despite a ruling from the Bosnian Human Rights Commission. cite

...and then we have the rewards schemes, introduced early last year.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/12/guantanamo.rewards.ap/
Quote:
"It's important for us to set the environment so they understand through cooperation and good behavior they can have the hope of eventually getting transferred back to their native countries," Army Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller said in an interview Tuesday.

...snip...

"We believe the rewards and penalties program has helped us increase the amount and quality of the information," Miller said.


...how reliable can information be when it is the result of what is essentially, a bribe? How many innocent people, who refuse to co-operate because either they claim innocence, or they honestly don't have any information to give up, fall into the "un-co-operative" category?


...a challenge for you zenith-nadir, you assert that

"A) they were caught in battle, B) they are members of the Taliban, C) they are memebers of Al Queda."

...feel free to show me a cite where any of the above conditions apply to any of the current detainees at Guantanamo Bay-where the detainees themselves do not contest those conditions. After nearly three years in captivity, it shouldn't be hard to show me the name of somebody who was definately a member of Al Queada, a member of the Taliban, or were caught in battle, shouldn't it? (Does not apply to those who have already been released)

-Portions of my post were cross posted on the straightdope message board by myself on the 8th 3rd, 2004.)

 

[The Fool]

So because I - a jew - feel the Gitmo prisoners are there because of something they did rather than something they didn't do one has good reason to dislike jews? Hahahaha, you are obviously insane or simply a bigot, I personally could care less after that statement.Unless you are an "unlawful combatant", then you get squat. Sorry that's the way the cookie crumbles. I have no sympathy for members of the Taliban or Al Queda.... 0%, none, nada, zilch. Sorry if that makes me evil but I distinctly remember that the Taliban who helped Al Queda didn't give the people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or the aircraft "a chance to dispute evidence, or told what the charges against them were'.

you simply can't comprehend it can you.... That you are applying the exact same pisspoor arguments against these people that people used to rationalise the detention of Jews.....that my government tells me they are evil and thats enough for me...

you have no sympathy for Taliban and Al Queda? well so what...niether have I but unlike you, i like to see some evidence that someone is associated with them before I condemn them. The very fact they are in a concentration camp is all the evidence you need of thier guilt....well done.

 

[Nikk]

So because I - a jew - feel the Gitmo prisoners are there because of something they did rather than something they didn't do one has good reason to dislike jews? Hahahaha, you are obviously insane or simply a bigot, I personally could care less after that statement.

I see your problem now.

You are very, very, very, dim.

My statement was an extremely simple form of irony designed to bring out the absurdity of your post ( which I quoted ). I kept it simple on purpose, I even reused the word "feel", which you used, to hammer the point home that the statement was not to be taken at face value . But no, it was all completely beyond your comprehension wasn't it?

Sad really.

 

[a_unique_person]

So because I - a jew - feel the Gitmo prisoners are there because of something they did rather than something they didn't do one has good reason to dislike jews? Hahahaha, you are obviously insane or simply a bigot, I personally could care less after that statement.Unless you are an "unlawful combatant", then you get squat. Sorry that's the way the cookie crumbles. I have no sympathy for members of the Taliban or Al Queda.... 0%, none, nada, zilch. Sorry if that makes me evil but I distinctly remember that the Taliban who helped Al Queda didn't give the people in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon or the aircraft "a chance to dispute evidence, or told what the charges against them were'.

And you know they are members of Taliban or Al Qaeda, how?

 

[zenith-nadir]

So the JREF "Wise Men" - Nikk, a_u_p and the fool - are here to save the day and will "put me in my place" with their superior intellects because I am...er...ah...so dim. If calling me names makes you feel superior then so be it.

Well you folks keep defending the "rights" of Taliban and Al Queda prisoners in Gitmo. Under the Geneva Convention they are unlawful combatants and therefore have no rights. I didn't write the Geneva Convention and I did force them to fight against Americans. Nor did I ask America to send them to Gitmo. I just don't think they are there because they are innocent I think they are there because they were doing something rather than nothing.

None of which has anything to do with jews and/or the treatement of jews during WW2 thank you very much. In fact comparing the internment of jews in WW2 with the 600 prisoners in Gitmo is laughable and at the same time obscene.

Of course they are all "bakers, farmers, businessman, lower level militia, and taxi drivers" banquetbear. Why that is how they were found by the US military in Afghanistan, while they were baking, driving taxis and doing normal everyday business in Kabul. For those "crimes" they were snached by the mean old U.S. forces and sent to Cuba. By the way I have this bridge to sell you in the Sahara that goes clean over the largest river you have ever seen.

F.Y.I. the article you quoted clearly says "According to Sayed, he was driving his taxi". Well that's some pretty devistating evidence regarding his innocence, his word. But lets dig deeper, Sayed was driving his taxi, and for no reason other than driving a taxi through a roadblock the U.S. forces grabbed him and sent him to Cuba. Do you folks really think the U.S. forces in Afghanistan are that cruel and stupid?...Really? That they would take the time effort and money to send a innocent guy driving a taxi to Cuba? I guess you do because "according to Sayed"...

(stand by for the Abu Ghraib references to "prove" all US forces in Afghanistan are cruel and stupid in 3....2...1...)

 

[zenith-nadir]

And you know they are members of Taliban or Al Qaeda, how?

And you know they are not members of Taliban or Al Qaeda, how?

 

[The Fool]

Why that is how they were found by the US military in Afghanistan, while they were baking, driving taxis and doing normal everyday business in Kabul. For those "crimes" they were snached by the mean old U.S. forces and sent to Cuba.

Is that the problem? Do you think they were all captured in Afganistan?

 

[The Fool]

And you know they are members of Taliban or Al Qaeda, how?

you must remember that ZN truly does believe what he is told to believe....It must be really handy to have a lot of followers with that ability....

 

[banquetbear]

So the JREF "Wise Men" - Nikk, a_u_p and the fool - are here to save the day and will "put me in my place" with their superior intellects because I am...er...ah...so dim. If calling me names makes you feel superior then so be it.

Well you folks keep defending the "rights" of Taliban and Al Queda prisoners in Gitmo. Under the Geneva Convention they are unlawful combatants and therefore have no rights. I didn't write the Geneva Convention and I did force them to fight against Americans. Nor did I ask America to send them to Gitmo. I just don't think they are there because they are innocent I think they are there because they were doing something rather than nothing.

None of which has anything to do with jews and/or the treatement of jews during WW2 thank you very much. In fact comparing the internment of jews in WW2 with the 600 prisoners in Gitmo is laughable and at the same time obscene.

Of course they are all "bakers, farmers, businessman, lower level militia, and taxi drivers" banquetbear. Why that is how they were found by the US military in Afghanistan, while they were baking, driving taxis and doing normal everyday business in Kabul. For those "crimes" they were snached by the mean old U.S. forces and sent to Cuba. By the way I have this bridge to sell you in the Sahara that goes clean over the largest river you have ever seen.

F.Y.I. the article you quoted clearly says "According to Sayed, he was driving his taxi". Well that's some pretty devistating evidence regarding his innocence, his word. But lets dig deeper, Sayed was driving his taxi, and for no reason other than driving a taxi through a roadblock the U.S. forces grabbed him and sent him to Cuba. Do you folks really think the U.S. forces in Afghanistan are that cruel and stupid?...Really? That they would take the time effort and money to send a innocent guy driving a taxi to Cuba? I guess you do because "according to Sayed"...

(stand by for the Abu Ghraib references to "prove" all US forces in Afghanistan are cruel and stupid in 3....2...1...)

...feel free to find any evidence to the counter to Sayed's claims. He was among the first to be released from Guantanemo, and if you read the article correctly, you would have read that he was grabbed by "Afghani" troops, and handed over to US forces. Do I think that US forces are cruel and stupid? Again, from my cites:

Other detainees seemed to get caught up in the military's bureaucratic machinery. In many cases, low-value prisoners caught early in the war were placed at the bottom of prioritized lists. But as planeloads of prisoners were sent to Cuba, names at the bottoms of the lists drifted to the top, and some started showing up on flight manifests.

Once they appeared on the manifests, sources said, removing them proved almost impossible. Doing so required senior intelligence officers in Kuwait or Afghanistan to work through thickets of military red tape. It also required them to trust the judgment of junior intelligence officers, something they were loath to do given the stakes.

...sending people to Cuba because of clerical errors? Damm straight I consider that stupid.

I don't claim that everybody at Guantanamo Bay is innocent, but I do have trouble in seeing how an obviously intelligent man like you can look past the possibility that some of them may not be guilty. You are, obviously aware of the Red Cross reports into the US run Iraqi prison's where the Red Cross estimated that between 60-90% of the prison population were innocent? That the US administration never disputed that assesment? That after the Abu Gharib scandle broke, thousands of prisoners were released? How can you deny a man the chance to prove his innocence?