The Great Illusion

[Iacchus]

I get where Iaccus is going with this. And it's pretty much nowhere.

Yesterday I wrote a novel on my computer, and saved it to the hard drive. Today I threw the computer off of a tall building. Where is my novel? Was it just an illusion? No, it was real. It was a function of my hard drive. Now that my hard drive is gone, my novel no longer exists. I still remember it fondly, but it went bye-bye. The fact that it is now gone is hardly proof of a great magic sky novelist, or an ultimate illusory novel.

One could draw an analogy to a television instead, proving the existence of a broadcast station, but here we get into philosophical exercises, not proof of fact. We have no way of proving either way whether our brains are generators or receivers. Myself, I'll go down Occam's path and predict that there is no Great Broadcast.

However, I'm not denying that anyone was ever here. I would just like to know where did they go?

 

[tdn]

However, I'm not denying that anyone was ever here. I would just like to know where did they go?

Same place my novel went. Away.

The question is largely meaningless.

 

[Iacchus]

Is what all there is to life? I am having a great life so far, full of love, full of learning, with plenty of happiness, and some sadness, frustration, even anger, thrown in which add spice. I have family, I have friends, I have wonderful food....I could go on for days and not scratch the surface. Is this all there is to life? If you are as fortunate as I am, I suppose so. How wonderful!

I'd say "good question", but it's not.

I never said we should deny were ever here. However, that doesn't seem to answer the question now does it?

The sandwich I had yesterday is gone. Would you call it an illusion? I think if I only ate illusory food, I would not be nearly so happy. Nor would I weigh this much. I think perhaps the word you are searching for is not "illusory", but "temporary". Maybe "finite." Our lives are temporary, not illusory. At least not unless you are redefining "illusory" to the point where your new definition and that used by the rest of the population no longer have any features in common.

Was the sandwich aware that you were eating it at the time?

 

[phildonnia]

But cleary you must understand that not even your words have any significance to them.

Apparently, words words are only significant when they are colored red.

If y'all enjoy this crap, you might check out Richard Bach's book "Illusions". Probably the best thing he ever wrote, which isn't saying much, I know, but I enjoyed it.

 

[tdn]

I never said we should deny were ever here. However, that doesn't seem to answer the question now does it?

The question is meaningless. If I turn on a light, where does the dark go? If I take an aspirin, where does my headache go? Of all the silly answers to these silly questions, "Eureka, there is a god" seems an unlikely one.

 

[Iacchus]

Same place my novel went. Away.

The question is largely meaningless.

Of course we all know what rotting corpse is all about, but what does that have to do with consciousness?

 

[tdn]

Was the sandwich aware that you were eating it at the time?

I would hope that that particular porcine pet was not aware of his slaughter, boiling, slicing, stuffing into a pita pocket, and devouring. That would just be cruel. The poor piggy!

Or are you asserting that mustard has awareness?

 

[tdn]

Of course we all know what rotting corpse is all about, but what does that have to do with consciousness?

This is so basic that it hardly merits discussion, but as far as we can tell, consciousness is a function of brain activity. When the body dies, the brain dies. When the brain dies, consciousness ceases. Insisting that it goes on forever is a comforting thought, but it strikes me as little more than wishful thinking.

Would it be any less meaningful to ask where my heartbeat goes when I die? Or what will happen to my urine? Or what my eardrums will hear? Why is consciousness singled out?

 

[Iacchus]

The question is meaningless. If I turn on a light, where does the dark go? If I take an aspirin, where does my headache go? Of all the silly answers to these silly questions, "Eureka, there is a god" seems an unlikely one.

And when you turn off the light the energy no longer flows in the circuit. And when we die, where does our conscious energy go?

 

[Iacchus]

This is so basic that it hardly merits discussion, but as far as we can tell, consciousness is a function of brain activity. When the body dies, the brain dies. When the brain dies, consciousness ceases. Insisting that it goes on forever is a comforting thought, but it strikes me as little more than wishful thinking.

Would it be any less meaningful to ask where my heartbeat goes when I die? Or what will happen to my urine? Or what my eardrums will hear? Why is consciousness singled out?

However, it is possible to smash a radio to pieces and not affect the radios waves a bit.

 

[tdn]

And when you turn off the light the energy no longer flows in the circuit. And when we die, where does our conscious energy go?

Let's first ascertain that it is actual energy. Which, by the way, the best physicists in the world have yet to prove. If it is not, then we are still stuck with a meaningless question.

True, there are measurable electrical impulses, but electricity does not equal consciousness any more than it equals light. When we die there is a power shutdown. When we shut off power to the light -- where does the light go? When we shut off power to a stereo, where does the music go?

Meaninless questions, and even then it's easier to measure light and sound waves than consciousness.

I ask you -- what form of energy is consciousness, and how can we measure it?

 

[tdn]

However, it is possible to smash a radio to pieces and not affect the radios waves a bit.

True enough, but the same can't be said of a CD player. So which is a brain more like? That is the debate. Assuming that a brain is like a radio receiver is making a huge leap. It's presupposing a host of answers to arrive at what might be a very faulty conclusion. And it's making an ass of you and ming.

 

[Iacchus]

True enough, but the same can't be said of a CD player. So which is a brain more like? That is the debate. Assuming that a brain is like a radio receiver is making a huge leap. It's presupposing a host of answers to arrive at what might be a very faulty conclusion. And it's making an ass of you and ming.

Actually what we're speaking about here is the difference between the mechanism and the medium. Either way, be it the CD player or the radio, the medium (the music itself) has to be converted into a signal (and there's the key) which can then be broadcast by the speakers. In which case the brain becomes the mechanism and consciousness becomes the medium.

Therefore, I would suggest it's possible for consciousness to exist outside of an earthly brain. However, how would we know, without a brain to play it back?

 

[tdn]

Actually what we're speaking about here is the difference between the mechanism and the medium. Either way, be it the CD player or the radio, the medium (the music itself) has to be converted into a signal (and there's the key) which can then be broadcast by the speakers. In which case the brain becomes the mechanism and consciousness becomes the medium.

Therefore, I would suggest it's possible for consciousness to exist outside of an earthly brain. However, how would we know, without a brain to play it back?

I'll buy that. Including the part about us not knowing. So then the question becomes: How do we find out?

 

[MRC_Hans]

If you're asking me how an illusion can have an illusion about itself, then that doesn't make sense now does it? However, this is exactly what we seem to have -- hmm ... another illusion? -- before us.

But that is not what I ask you. I ask you: What is your definition of "illusion", since it is obviously different from the usual definition?

And yet if such a thing is not possible -- or is it? -- then it must not be an illusion then, right? Of course that would be contingent upon it continuing on, even after death. Or how else could you assert it wasn't an illusion?

Can't answer till I know your definition of the term.

Is consciousness physical?

Quite possibly, yes.

But then again what difference would it make?

If you don't feel you make a difference, you have a problem.


(on a possible afterlife as a bonus)
But this would be contingent upon how you live your life, don't you think?

How can we know? And if so, how can we know how we should live our lives??

Hans

 

[Iacchus]

I'll buy that. Including the part about us not knowing. So then the question becomes: How do we find out?

Well, this was the last thing I expected to hear. Not even sure where to begin. Are you speaking in terms of what science can do or, what one can do on a personal level?

 

[Dancing David]

Therefore, if life were merely an illusion, then there must be an even greater illusion from which all other illusions spring, right? But of course we're really not speaking of this at all, in as much as we're speaking of the greatest of illusionists, God Himself ...

i am not in agreement with that, i think thatas individuals we can have illsuions that are radicaly different from the illusions of others and therefore it is a mass of seperate illsuions as opposed to the grand illusions.

The greatsest single illusions is that there is aself which is existant.

There is no self, so I suppose that could be the grand illusion.

 

[tdn]

Well, this was the last thing I expected to hear. Not even sure where to begin. Are you speaking in terms of what science can do or, what one can do on a personal level?

What can be done on a personal level is not really reliable as evidence, so let's go with science. How can science measure a consciousness?

 

[c0rbin]

Breathe deep in the gathering gloom
Watch lights fade from every room
Bedsitter people look back and lament
Another day's useless energy's spent
Impassioned lovers wrestle as one
Lonely man cries for love and has none
New mother picks up and suckles her sun
Senior citizens wish they were young
Cold-hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colors from our sight
Red is grey and yellow white
And we decide which is right
And which is an illusion?

Moody Blues

 

[Iacchus]

What can be done on a personal level is not really reliable as evidence, so let's go with science. How can science measure a consciousness?

Well, if they could create a super computer, capable of simulating a human brain, maybe they could actually tune in to somebody who has just died? Or, maybe take the healthy of brain of somebody who just died, say in a car accident, and hook it up and see if they can't do something similar? And, since each us has a unique set of brain frequencies, perhaps they could learn how to vary these and tune in to different people? Hey, I'm just guessing!