The Great Illusion

[Iacchus]

But that is not what I ask you. I ask you: What is your definition of "illusion", since it is obviously different from the usual definition?

Well let's just say you happened to be on the holodeck in Star Trek? How would you know the difference between what happens in the holodeck and what happens the real world? If it was that real you couldn't, right? And yet the holodeck is just an illusion.

If you don't feel you make a difference, you have a problem.

All I'm saying is if there's no life after death, then what difference would it make what you do?

How can we know? And if so, how can we know how we should live our lives??

Even if we don't know, I think so long as we have self-respect and are decent towards others it really doesn't matter.

 

[tdn]

Well, if they could create a super computer, capable of simulating a human brain, maybe they could actually tune in to somebody who has just died? Or, maybe take the healthy of brain of somebody who just died, say in a car accident, and hook it up and see if they can't do something similar? And, since each us has a unique set of brain frequencies, perhaps they could learn how to vary these and tune in to different people? Hey, I'm just guessing!

LOL!

Yeah, but there are a couple of problems. For one, computers aren't magic, they only do what you tell them to. You can't model the human brain without first understanding the human brain!

For another, doing tests on dying brains has the major drawback of getting willing subjects in the lab to die for you on queue. The IRB takes a dim view on this sort of practice.

 

[scribble]

All I'm saying is if there's no life after death, then what difference would it make what you do?

Now that's an interesting question that you can put a lot of thought into. I haven't come up with any answer I can defend rigorously.

 

[Mercutio]

All I'm saying is if there's no life after death, then what difference would it make what you do?

I refuse to believe that theists don't care about what happens to their children and grandchildren.

What difference does it make? I am making a better world for the people I love. Because it is the only one they get. If I thought as you seem to suggest I should, I should not care at all about their physical lives--in fact, the sooner they can join in the singularity, the better! Shuffle off the ol' mortal coil, and step on it!

Nope, not for me. I care what sort of world my kids have after I'm gone. And their kids, and theirs. I'm selfish; I want my kids to have the best world possible. And frankly, I have a tough time believing that a religious person would love his or her kids any less. So...in this matter, whether there is life after death or not, we work for our kids. You ask what difference it makes? I don't see any.

 

[Iacchus]

Non-existence Here We Go!

Try thinking of yourself as having never been here; then try thinking of yourself for the short time you have; then try thinking of yourself as if you no longer were. So basically what we have is a whole lot of non-existence and the slightest sliver of existence in between which, you will never know about as soon as you die.

So from non-existence we came, to non-existence we go, to non-existence which will always be, from here on out.


P.S. I don't believe in non-existence by the way.

 

[Mercutio]

Re: Non-existence Here We Go!

Try thinking of yourself as having never been here; then try thinking of yourself for the short time you have; then try thinking of yourself as if you no longer were. So basically what we have is a whole lot of non-existence and the slightest sliver of existence in between which, you will never know about as soon as you die.

Yup, that's pretty much my world view. Only it is even more remarkable a picture than you paint--Even within the history of this one planet, my life is an insignificant speck. This planet, this solar system...yet another insignificant speck in a galaxy, which is yet another insignificant speck compared to the known universe. Look at the most recent Hubble photos....How anyone, anyone, can look at that infinitessimal existence that we as a species have, let alone we as individuals, and think that we must have some special purpose, some special plan, some special anything...is beyond me.

But at the same time...it is science, not religion, that can let me know how long this planet has been around, and put me, awe-struck, in my proper perspective. It is science, not religion, that opens up the galaxy to view. It is science that shows us that Hubble photo, or the moons of Jupiter, or our own DNA, and shows us that this thing we are an insignificant part of is something bigger than our understanding of it. I mean, more galaxies than there are grains of sand on all the beaches of earth! Distances so vast that they render futile any attempt to put them into human terms. (Ok, it's as if you went from New York to Los Angeles, once per second, for the next million lifetimes...aw, forget it...)

This place is so incredibly vast, so incredibly varied, that remarkable things have a chance to happen...by chance. Like us. Natural selection is an incredibly simple idea, and yet...look around. Given a time scale to work with that most people can't conceive of, natural selection has given us amoebas and elephants, venus flytraps and giant redwoods, platypi, Interesting Ian, and Cleopatra. Again, with sufficient time, running water and rock give us the Grand Canyon. Sufficient time, culture, learning....and these random, intentionless processes even give us people who think they have a philosophy which can tie it all together. Such arrogance! And yet, why not? It's an incredibly vast, incredibly old universe. It has room enough for you, too.

 

[billydkid]

Therefore, if life were merely an illusion, then there must be an even greater illusion from which all other illusions spring, right? But of course we're really not speaking of this at all, in as much as we're speaking of the greatest of illusionists, God Himself ...

I never got this whole "life is an illusion" bit. Life is what it is. Naming it an illusion in no way changes its character. This is reality because this is what we have defined as reality. Is there some other reality - who the hell knows? It is just incredibly stupid and meaningless. The only frame of reference we have for defining reality is the reality we inhabit. To say that "this is not real" suggest that you have some other frame of reference to compare it to which is more real. You don't. It wouldn't even matter or be meaningful if life were, in some inconceivable way, an "illusion". It was still be everything that constitutes reality for we corporeal beings.

 

[Iacchus]

Hey I'm just working with your guys' definition, not mine. Ever see the movie, The Truman Show?

 

[Mercutio]

Hey I'm just working with your guys' definition, not mine.

Oh, I must have missed that...In your opening post, the first time you use the term "illusion" (in this thread), your link (where you cite one of "us guys' definitions") must be broken.

Please show that "illusion", as you use it in this thread, is being used as "we" use it. Current confusion from "us" as to how you are using it leads me to believe that you are mistaken.

(BTW, nice post, billydkid. If you hadn't misused a "we" where an "us" belongs, I'd have nominated that one...very nicely put)

 

[tdn]

Re: Re: Non-existence Here We Go!

This place is so incredibly vast, so incredibly varied, (etc.)

Very nice post. And a great rebuttal to the accusation that skeptics are boring and shallow people.

As to the notion of us living for just a sliver of time, I refer you to the year 1980. June the 20th. 2:59 PM. It was the longest minute in history. In that one minute, 757890 new species evolved, 52632 went extinct, and several new planets wer born. It was the longest minute in history, and I was there to witness it. Because it was, you see, the last minute of my high school career. At 3:00 I was to become a (hopeful) college student. I sat there and watched that clock for what seemed like millenia.

 

[tdn]

Re: Non-existence Here We Go!

Try thinking of yourself as having never been here; then try thinking of yourself for the short time you have; then try thinking of yourself as if you no longer were. So basically what we have is a whole lot of non-existence and the slightest sliver of existence in between which, you will never know about as soon as you die.

So from non-existence we came, to non-existence we go, to non-existence which will always be, from here on out.

And this disturbs you.

It never ceases to amaze me how people sometimes deal with this. They deny science, deny evidence, claim that what is real is fake and what is fake is real, create religions, knock down buildings killing thousands all for the glory of boinking 77 virgins -- simply because they can't cope with the reality that life is short.

The universe is a vast and wonderful place. If some greater intelligence created it from a thought, then that intelligence must be great indeed. But the very people that believe in such intelligence want to limit it by claiming that Earth is central to the universe, Earth is flat, humans aren't apes, etc. The very people that want to glorify God really don't -- they want to limit God and glorify themselves.

It amazes me how many wars were started, how many nations built, how many people were enslaved, how many suicide bombers there have been -- all because people want to feel important and loved.

 

[tdn]

Hey I'm just working with your guys' definition, not mine. Ever see the movie, The Truman Show?

Ever heard of fiction?

 

[Mercutio]

Re: Re: Re: Non-existence Here We Go!

Very nice post. And a great rebuttal to the accusation that skeptics are boring and shallow people.

Hey, just ask any of the skepchicks who met me at TAM2--I can be boring and shallow with the best of them!

 

[kuroyume0161]

Actually what we're speaking about here is the difference between the mechanism and the medium. Either way, be it the CD player or the radio, the medium (the music itself) has to be converted into a signal (and there's the key) which can then be broadcast by the speakers. In which case the brain becomes the mechanism and consciousness becomes the medium.

Therefore, I would suggest it's possible for consciousness to exist outside of an earthly brain. However, how would we know, without a brain to play it back?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. First you say that consciousness is energy. Then you say that is a medium (lit. in science: a conductor of energy). Eh, it can't be both the energy and the conductor thereof simultaneously.

Consciousness is a function of brain activity, which is a function of electrochemical responses between neurons. That is a physical property. When the physical property ceases, so does the emerging aspect of consciousness.

The radio and CD player are bad analogies. The brain is more like the a music box that arranges its own music through complex processes. You pull the plug on the brain and no more music can be composed.

Where was your consciousness prior to birth? What kind of consciousness would 'live on' eternally for an infant who died at birth?

Kuroyume

 

[Atlas]

Iacchus,

What if you are in a coma - where does your consciousness go?

What if you go senile - are you stuck in your madness for eternity?

What about the insects? They are real life forms. What happens to them when they are crushed under the boot or picked off in mid flight on a frogs tongue or trapped in a spider's web and their life drained slowly away by the spider?

When our consciousness continues will their be an incessant and irritating buzzing around us from all the insects who continued as well? Will there be a way to swat them away or kill them? - After all, they are already dead. If not - they could drive us mad.

And if only a disembodied consciousness continues without anything of the senses to validate it's experience - won't it be the entity within the illusion? I think it is easier to ponder non-existence than an unstable dream reality that gets less and less substantial as eternity robs your memory from your non existent brain cells.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Well let's just say you happened to be on the holodeck in Star Trek? How would you know the difference between what happens in the holodeck and what happens the real world? If it was that real you couldn't, right? And yet the holodeck is just an illusion.

Because my holodeck acountomatic badge [tm] would be ticking off the minutes.


All I'm saying is if there's no life after death, then what difference would it make what you do?

It so happens that I feel it makes a difference how people remember me. And, I have some people who are going to remember me.

Even if we don't know, I think so long as we have self-respect and are decent towards others it really doesn't matter.

Self-respect is a good start, but it takes more..........

Hans

 

[Iacchus]

And this disturbs you.

Not in the least.

It never ceases to amaze me how people sometimes deal with this. They deny science, deny evidence, claim that what is real is fake and what is fake is real, create religions, knock down buildings killing thousands all for the glory of boinking 77 virgins -- simply because they can't cope with the reality that life is short.

What does this have to do with God? What does the label on a can of soup have to do with the soup inside?

The universe is a vast and wonderful place. If some greater intelligence created it from a thought, then that intelligence must be great indeed. But the very people that believe in such intelligence want to limit it by claiming that Earth is central to the universe, Earth is flat, humans aren't apes, etc. The very people that want to glorify God really don't -- they want to limit God and glorify themselves.

You can't fault them for being who they were, given the time and circumstances.

It amazes me how many wars were started, how many nations built, how many people were enslaved, how many suicide bombers there have been -- all because people want to feel important and loved.

And when we abolish religion? What excuse would we need for starting a war then? Communism? ... Fascism? ...

 

[Iacchus]

Ever heard of fiction?

Ever here that the truth was stranger than fiction? How bizzare ...

 

[Iacchus]

Please show that "illusion", as you use it in this thread, is being used as "we" use it. Current confusion from "us" as to how you are using it leads me to believe that you are mistaken.

What other word could you use to describe it then? ... "Delusion?"

Let me just put it this way, if there is more to life than just this temporal existence, then it must be an illusion, and we, must under the delusion that this is all there is.

 

[Iacchus]

Iacchus,

What if you are in a coma - where does your consciousness go?

The spiritual world.

What if you go senile - are you stuck in your madness for eternity?

If you're senile you're probably stuck between both worlds, that is until your body dies and allows you to pass on.

What about the insects? They are real life forms. What happens to them when they are crushed under the boot or picked off in mid flight on a frogs tongue or trapped in a spider's web and their life drained slowly away by the spider?

Do they have a spiritual counterpart? It stands to reason. Otherwise there would be no spiritual diversity.

When our consciousness continues will their be an incessant and irritating buzzing around us from all the insects who continued as well? Will there be a way to swat them away or kill them? - After all, they are already dead. If not - they could drive us mad.

It all depends on what kind of relationship you establish with them in this life.

And if only a disembodied consciousness continues without anything of the senses to validate it's experience - won't it be the entity within the illusion? I think it is easier to ponder non-existence than an unstable dream reality that gets less and less substantial as eternity robs your memory from your non existent brain cells.

On the contrary. Spirits have form and the full faculty of senses that we have, except more highly intensified.