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The Citgo Ghost

Why don't you interview the maintenance man at the Navy Annex who was almost killed when AA77 sheered off the upper part of the antenna he was working on at the time?

Best eye witness ever.
 
Then we came across a statement by a Naval historian talking to a Park Service director that the Navy had interviewed a Park Police helicopter pilot who claims he was ordered to intercept the incoming plane (AAL77) and try to "block it". Yet, we cannot find such a interview in the public domain. And of course the historian has to inject that the incident is not for public disclosure.

Now I don't know about ya'll, but I'd really like to hear that pilot's account.

Same here! I would be damn interested to read what he has to say. Even if it's just for curiosity's sake and nothing else.

I wonder if a list is FOIA'able of the USPP Aviation Unit members from that time period. On the one hand, my own workplace's list of personnel is actually public information since we're a state funded entity, so you'd think the same would apply for the USPP. On the other, I could easily imagine an exception being made specifically for law enforcement officers. But anyway, if that sort of list is available somehow, it may be a simple (albeit painfully time consuming) matter of contacting the members to ask which of them was there at the time and see if they'd be willing to discuss their involvement.

Admittedly, that's all much easier said than done. And that presumes such a list would be available under FOIA to begin with. So no, this wouldn't be an easy thing to do. But if someone had the time to dedicate to it, it'd be interesting to try doing, just to see where it leads.
 
Same here! I would be damn interested to read what he has to say. Even if it's just for curiosity's sake and nothing else.

Sorry, it was a Border Patrol Asst. Chief he was interviewing at the time, Jeff Parsons. You'll find the account starting around page 30 of the transcript. Initially I shrugged it off as a reference to the COG helicopter (black and white) although he describes it as a blue and white Park Police helicopter. The COG helicopter was also 10 minutes earlier, but he insists he saw this one just 2-3 minutes before.

We located the interviews with the crews of Eagle 1 and Eagle 2, both of which took off after the event, so it was not them being referenced by the interviewer. In light of this new track, my curiosity has been renewed :D
 
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Why don't you interview the maintenance man at the Navy Annex who was almost killed when AA77 sheered off the upper part of the antenna he was working on at the time?

Best eye witness ever.

Would love to. What's his name and contact info?
 
Sometimes the distinction between a truther and "truther" gets lost these days. So maybe this email I just sent a colleague on this subject will illustrate the difference.

As you know, I am rather anal when it comes to data. I dig into it until I root out every possible scenario. So this morning I located the individual data points in the original CDR file to make sure I was not looking at a parsing error or something. No, I did not have a parsing error and no problems with the positional calculations, since everything checked out in the raw file. However, as I stared intently at my computer screen and put on my engineering cap, blocked out my confirmation bias impulses, I reached this conclusion. I am only 5% certain now that they represent a real target, and about 95% certain that they are some kind of systematic artifact.

That and a quarter will not even buy a cup of coffee.

So, bottom-line. This is an interesting target track, but that is all it is. There is nothing at that location within the expected error range (1/32 nmi, or 0.03125 nmi) to generate that kind (linear) of "clutter" pattern (as opposed to that generated by the debris cloud, the 14th St. Bridge or the large buildings in Crystal City). There is a 0.11 nmi separation between the extrema, and ~0.04 nmi between each individual data point. I thought perhaps the Citgo canopy might be the culprit, but the angles (headings) don't match and at least two are definitely outside the error range for that possibility.

I can't rule out a low altitude airborne target, but at the same time there are not enough data points to draw such a conclusion either. At this point I would say it has about as much chance of being AW Smith's aliens as it does a helicopter. Oh well.
 
You pulled your own blog and did an iQuit, not for the first time. It was an inside job, Farmer, as my link outlines. No "hackers" involved. :rolleyes:

Cripes, are you still sticking up for the wonder Twins, Aldo the Buffet Slayer and Shaky Craig?

Seriously?

Talk about an iQuit, after the dopes got their trip to Paris out of the deal, they basically quit. What a *********** joke CE.

They finished Operation Accountability yet? LULZ

By the way, it seems that you iQuit as well, sport, seeing as in the good old days you were anti-no planer at the Pentagon yourself.

Hypocrite much?
 
Sorry, it was a Border Patrol Asst. Chief he was interviewing at the time, Jeff Parsons. You'll find the account starting around page 30 of the transcript. Initially I shrugged it off as a reference to the COG helicopter (black and white) although he describes it as a blue and white Park Police helicopter. The COG helicopter was also 10 minutes earlier, but he insists he saw this one just 2-3 minutes before.

We located the interviews with the crews of Eagle 1 and Eagle 2, both of which took off after the event, so it was not them being referenced by the interviewer. In light of this new track, my curiosity has been renewed :D

Well, Border Patrol or not, it was still some rather specific testimony. If only that pilot could be identified.

Does anyone know who the "male interviewer" is? I'm sorry if he's been identified before, John, but I simply don't recall this at all, so it's new information to me. Anyway, I ask because I wonder if that interviewer is willing to either render more detail, or point someone else in a direction to get it.

Sometimes the distinction between a truther and "truther" gets lost these days. So maybe this email I just sent a colleague on this subject will illustrate the difference.



So, bottom-line. This is an interesting target track, but that is all it is. There is nothing at that location within the expected error range (1/32 nmi, or 0.03125 nmi) to generate that kind (linear) of "clutter" pattern (as opposed to that generated by the debris cloud, the 14th St. Bridge or the large buildings in Crystal City). There is a 0.11 nmi separation between the extrema, and ~0.04 nmi between each individual data point. I thought perhaps the Citgo canopy might be the culprit, but the angles (headings) don't match and at least two are definitely outside the error range for that possibility.

I can't rule out a low altitude airborne target, but at the same time there are not enough data points to draw such a conclusion either. At this point I would say it has about as much chance of being AW Smith's aliens as it does a helicopter. Oh well.

Well, ignoring aliens (as well as how AW Smith got ownership of some ;):D), it'd still be interesting to see what comes of this. Regardless of the truther/"truther" distinction, the information in and of itself is worth uncovering.
 
Well, Border Patrol or not, it was still some rather specific testimony. If only that pilot could be identified.

Does anyone know who the "male interviewer" is? I'm sorry if he's been identified before, John, but I simply don't recall this at all, so it's new information to me. Anyway, I ask because I wonder if that interviewer is willing to either render more detail, or point someone else in a direction to get it.

I agree this is an interesting "loose end" and of course that is why I continue to pursue it. It even tied into the book I was working on for several years but abandoned when it was suggested I trim the size and scope of it down. As you may recall, the theme of the book was AAL77, but the sub-plot was the Falkenberg family and in particular Zoe. It gained even more interest for me when it turned out that Charles Falkenberg's "boss" actually saw the DT helicopter that morning as he crossed the 14th St. Bridge on the way to work and thought it's flight pattern was "not normal" and made him think at the time that "something was up".

The helicopter he saw fit the flight path of the DT helicopter, which has a very good radar record associated with it. As I mentioned before, it had a transponder code of 5175 and I located its flight strip from Andrews AFB very easily. His path was of particular interest to the 911 Commission staff during their visit to Andrews and this particular one caught a staffer's attention. On the ATC audios he is MUS6, or a "Muscle" flight and this guy was a "Muscle" commander. They are with the 316th Wing, 1st Helicopter Squadron stationed at Andrews and charged with COOP/COG. For example, when they did the evacuations of the Pentagon and Capitol, they transported the VIP's and transition to Site R (the back-up Pentagon). The flight path this guy was on was similar to one noted earlier in the day by another "Muscle" flight, straight up the Potomac after a short stop at the Pentagon towards Camp David/Site R. These are the black and white helicopters people see flying around DC on almost any given day.

This brings us to the "second helicopter". I caution you, the MUS6 flight I just spoke of actually happened and is very well documented and verified. The second one is a Park Police helicopter flight spoken of by the interviewer, John Sherwood. Indeed two helicopters responded from the Park Police facility at Anacostia. They are known as Eagle 1 and 2 on the ATC audios and their transponders can be tracked fairly well until they get into the tidal basin and then their transponders show up intermittently, depending on altitude of course. Neither of these fly the flight path that Sherwood describes and don't respond until after the event.

The helicopter described by Parsons matches the MUS6 flight path and shows up on DT videos. The Doubletree is in the same area as his hotel. The helicopter described by the interviewer, Sherwood, is NOT a match for MUS6. This is intriguing for a number of reasons, not the least of which is how helicopters fit into the defense strategy for just the kind of attack we saw on 9/11. Despite the public claims that we never imagined such a thing happening, it is fairly well documented that the National Security Council had already planned for such tactics. Richard Clarke says as much in his Against All Enemies when he outlines their plans to defend the Atlanta Olympics stadium in 1996 against such an attack. They armed helicopters with 50 cals to shoot down kamikaze planes manned by terrorists. The same strategy is being employed by NYC police today post-9/11. Definitely the intelligence services knew that AQ operatives were coming to the US to meet other AQ operatives already here for "planning terrorist-related activities" by June, 2001. So in my mind all of this begs the question of whether such a plan was in place on 9/11 for DC and whether any of these helicopters were involved in such a contingency? It is not as exotic as DEW or foam theories, but it is certainly rooted in actual evidence and events.

Yet the problem with the Park Police helicopter scenario outlined by Sherwood is that its existence is based primarily on spurious evidence. His account is second-hand, and most likely third-hand. As far as I know, this pilot, nor his interview has never surfaced. There is some evidence (movement of debris on the ground) in the Pentagon gate footage of helicopter wash in the vicinity of the Mall gate about 8 seconds (if I recall correctly) after impact. There is the "flash" on the wall in the Citgo video that can be correlated to a low-altitude reflective source in the same general direction at the time of impact. There is an account by a ANC worker who saw a "plane" moments after impact in the same area. Now there is this little radar "track" (I am still suspicious of the Citgo canopy being the culprit in this case). Quite frankly, none of it comes even close to the evidence threshold required to say the darn helicopter ever existed.

Sure wish we had those Pentagon videos the FBI lost :D
 
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Well, ignoring aliens (as well as how AW Smith got ownership of some ;):D), it'd still be interesting to see what comes of this. Regardless of the truther/"truther" distinction, the information in and of itself is worth uncovering.

No, the distinction does have to be made. Here is what a "truther" did with the same interview.

http://shoestring911.blogspot.com/2011/06/mystery-of-helicopter-flying-around.html

In November 2001, Galey recalled Walsh saying, "We have a 757 down somewhere in the vicinity of the 14th Street Bridge," which goes over the Potomac River, near the Pentagon. [21] Later that month, Galey gave a slightly different account, recalling that Walsh said the control tower had "lost a 757 somewhere in the vicinity of the Pentagon." [22] But in January 2002, Galey said that Walsh specifically mentioned a plane hitting the Pentagon. Walsh supposedly said that "they had a 757 go into the Pentagon and they needed us to respond to the incident." [23]

And then, later that year, Galey gave a very different account. He recalled Walsh saying, "We have a 757 down on the north end of the airport," referring to Reagan Airport, which is about a mile away from the Pentagon. [24] Galey's fellow pilot, Keith Bohn, had earlier given a similar account. In November 2001, he said that in the initial phone call the aviation unit received about the attack, it was told there was "an aircraft down at the end of the runway at National Airport." [25]

A possible explanation for these conflicting accounts is that Galey had taken off before the Pentagon attack took place and therefore did not answer the call on the aircraft crash phone. Perhaps because he was ordered to keep quiet about his actual experiences from that time, Galey had been uncertain over what he should say instead, and so gave differing accounts when interviewed.

You really have to work hard to find all those "conflicting" statements that in the end mean the same thing.

And by the way, the answer to his "possible explanation" is hogwash. Their helicopters had transponders. Those transponders were picked up by radar. End of story.
 
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Sometimes the distinction between a truther and "truther" gets lost these days. So maybe this email I just sent a colleague on this subject will illustrate the difference.



So, bottom-line. This is an interesting target track, but that is all it is. There is nothing at that location within the expected error range (1/32 nmi, or 0.03125 nmi) to generate that kind (linear) of "clutter" pattern (as opposed to that generated by the debris cloud, the 14th St. Bridge or the large buildings in Crystal City). There is a 0.11 nmi separation between the extrema, and ~0.04 nmi between each individual data point. I thought perhaps the Citgo canopy might be the culprit, but the angles (headings) don't match and at least two are definitely outside the error range for that possibility.

I can't rule out a low altitude airborne target, but at the same time there are not enough data points to draw such a conclusion either. At this point I would say it has about as much chance of being AW Smith's aliens as it does a helicopter. Oh well.

So most likely it was not anything real?

OK. I can accept that. :boggled:
 

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