The Behavior Of US Police Officers - Part 3

[Thermal]

Regarding the Independence shooting:

Yet again, tbe initial narrive as reported was substantially ◊◊◊◊◊◊ six ways from Sunday. Literally everything of consequence was reported wrongly. The police did not assault the apartment and slaughter the occupants unprovoked. The police spoke calmly with the woman for 11 minutes, asking if she was ok and repeatedly asking her to put the infant down. The unquestioning acceptance of these one-sided bull ◊◊◊◊ narratives is getting to be a bit of a bore around here.

The infant was shot because the attacker was holding it in front of her center mass when she attacked. The death was pretty much 100% due to the attacker. A cop does not have the time to get in a better position and consider various better options when it's happening in a split second at close range.

Ordinarily, I'd agree that the cops should not go straight to shooting an attacker with a knife, even at close range. But over on the Australian mall stabbing thread, I was browbeaten by multiple members from Australia, Great Britain, Canada, and the US that if you raise a knife and lunge at a cop, you just signed your own death warrant. And importantly, you can't even question if that cop was justified. You can only declare them a hero immediately and slap medals of valor around their necks. I'm sure they'll all be a long presently to school you all.

 

[Donal]

So the baby had to die so the cop could live?

What the ◊◊◊◊ are they paid for again?

 

[Thermal]

A trained police officer should have been prepared to deal with it. it's literally their ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ job!

NSW police would like a word with you. Outside

 

[Shadowdweller]

Maybe it's because a large portion of the population is sick of hearing every excuse in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ book when cops drop bodies. You think that might have something to do with it? We see other countries without nearly the body count and we seem to get frustrated. Now you're here ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ chastising everyone cause we aren't patting these cops on the back? Seriously "kid", since you like to use that term, maybe after seeing the cops shoot 9 times at a subway fare jumper and causing collateral damage (and hundreds of similar cases every year) we aren't interested in the excuses anymore.

You can get butthurt all you want, talk down to others and tell us we're the problem with even having a discussion about ◊◊◊◊ like this, but let me be honest, pal. We've been having this discussion since I came here over a decade ago and exactly ◊◊◊◊ all has changed.

Don't worry, your little police officers won't get in any trouble and they'll be high fiving for killing this woman around the water cooler by this afternoon.

I

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed breach of rule 0 and rule 12

As for this particular case, there is insufficient footage to draw any sort of authoritative conclusions. But what I personally observed was:

* Police not barging into a dwelling and expecting immediate compliance while the occupants try to make sense of what's going on.

* Police not starting off with lethal force against a suspect accused of violent crime

* Police not shouting complex or conflicting demands.

* Police not immediately resorting to pepper spray or tasers against a not-immediately-responsive suspect.

* Police not detaining the wrong individual in the wrong location.

* Police not engaged in escalatory behavior.

* Police not firing weapons at unseen locations.

By US standards, sadly, yes that DOES deserve a pat on the back.

 

[Thermal]

So the baby had to die so the cop could live?

What the ◊◊◊◊ are they paid for again?

Have you watched the video? She went for her attempted murder suddenly, without warning or anyone even knowing she had a knife, while holding the bady in front of her. Should the cop have stood docilely while the knife was plugged into his face?

 

[plague311]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove rule breach

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove response to rule breach

 

[Thermal]

Nope but as she had the knife in the baby they could have grabbed her knife arm....

Horrifically dangerous. You don't deliberately put your own hands anywhere near a knife, especially a long one. The odds of it slitting your wrist or any of those big ol' veins close to the surface are really high, which is why suicides often slit their wrists. You bleed out fast, and die.

Training in combative stuff, they do what they call Sharpie drills, where one guy holds a marker, mimicking a knife, and the other tries to disarm them. The disarming guy ends up looking like a freaking coloring book. He'd be dead from blood loss long before he got that marker away.

 

[plague311]

Horrifically dangerous. You don't deliberately put your own hands anywhere near a knife, especially a long one. The odds of it slitting your wrist or any of those big ol' veins close to the surface are really high, which is why suicides often slit their wrists. You bleed out fast, and die.

Training in combative stuff, they do what they call Sharpie drills, where one guy holds a marker, mimicking a knife, and the other tries to disarm them. The disarming guy ends up looking like a freaking coloring book. He'd be dead from blood loss long before he got that marker away.

I get your point, and you're probably not wrong. I don't know, I don't watch combative training because I don't care enough, but how many of the knife wielders in that scenario are holding a baby? Are those knife wielders trained in how to use knives vs. a lady who isn't? Is the person trying to disarm the knife wielder in that situation trained or are they just a regular Joe off the street?

I'm not saying either way. I don't know enough about this case and I'm not heavily invested in this particular scenario but in this situation two people are dead. One of them being a newborn. If the cops aren't even going to really try, then why bother? Why not just show up, shoot everyone, call in the cleanup and go home? Again, I'm not talking about this specific situation, but how far removed are we from that cop going in and shooting that woman in the head because she had, what was it again? Oh yeah, a pan with hot water in it. If absolutely everything is a risk to the police officer then just shoot first and we can stop pretending like they're there to help.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That's why cops have batons.. A steel extending baton as used by the UK police can be off the belt an in use in a second. They are trained to disarm or incapacitate knife attackers with batons, and tazer

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's why cops have batons.. A steel extending baton as used by the UK police can be off the belt an in use in a second. They are trained to disarm or incapacitate knife attackers with batons, and tazer

But when you have a gun why bother learning any of that, the baton is really for beating unresisting protestors because that is serious fun.

 

[Shadowdweller]

How are the cops going to get surprise attacked during a domestic disturbance call? They are trianed to assume the purpetrator and victim might turn on them.

The lady was holding an infant with both hands initially; and despite a flat affect and obvious mental health issues showed no overt signs of direct resistance or aggression. At one point during the incident she quietly walks over to the bed, takes a hidden knife out of a nightstand drawer and immediately tries to stab an officer within arm's reach at the time.

Being trained to consider everyone a possible threat doesn't magically make one immune to surprise. Can show you plenty of videos of US police getting surprised if you like. And I'd personally far rather have a police force that does NOT feel the need to immediately restrain every non-verbal or aneurotypical person they interact with.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So don't train them at all and just let them shoot everyone in the room?

 

[Shadowdweller]

Nope. That would be a bad way to train your officers.

As far as I'm personally aware, that is exactly how non-gun wielding peace officers in other countries are trained handle knife attacks. Feel free to supply some evidence to the contrary instead of making idiotic statements.

I seem to recall that we actually have - or at least once had - police officers from non-US countries on these boards for example.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If you think there is a threat from a suspect them put the cuffs on until you have established what is happening. What's wrong with that?

 

[Darat]

As far as I'm personally aware, that is exactly how non-gun wielding peace officers in other countries are trained handle knife attacks. Feel free to supply some evidence to the contrary instead of making idiotic statements.

I seem to recall that we actually have - or at least once had - police officers from non-US countries on these boards for example.

It's your claim so I'll wait to see you provide support for your claim.

 

[Thermal]

I get your point, and you're probably not wrong. I don't know, I don't watch combative training because I don't care enough, but how many of the knife wielders in that scenario are holding a baby? Are those knife wielders trained in how to use knives vs. a lady who isn't? Is the person trying to disarm the knife wielder in that situation trained or are they just a regular Joe off the street?

All fair questions, and not easy to answer. A couple martial arts I've fooled around with had cops training there. They are the ones who warn that knives are like 80x more dangerous than they look, and they already look deadly enough. The accidental cutting is the big threat. Even the bad guy dropping the knife can open up your skin and allow your life blood to spurt away in seconds. They assure me it's not like the movies or karate class.

I'm not saying either way. I don't know enough about this case and I'm not heavily invested in this particular scenario but in this situation two people are dead. One of them being a newborn. If the cops aren't even going to really try, then why bother? Why not just show up, shoot everyone, call in the cleanup and go home? Again, I'm not talking about this specific situation, but how far removed are we from that cop going in and shooting that woman in the head because she had, what was it again? Oh yeah, a pan with hot water in it. If absolutely everything is a risk to the police officer then just shoot first and we can stop pretending like they're there to help.

Absolutely, 1000% agreed that we have to find more non-lethal ways of engaging bad guys. But they have to be effective. We can't really disarm police with all the guns in the states as-is, and a cop can't really carry around 40 different kinds of non-lethal weapons; he'd barely be able to move.

A lot of our Euro posters here think that American police are trained to kill first. I can assure them it's not the case. Police in my area spend most of their training time learning how to confront suspects without guns. While we were arguing on the Australian stabbing thread, a couple cops in my hood were attacked by a knife welding guy. The police fought with him, but neither drew a weapon. Everyone lived. It can physically be done, but man, is it really fair to ask cops to open themselves up to being gutted by every meth head? That's a big ask, I think.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Isn't it part of the job?

 

[Thermal]

Being needlessly gutted by some random loser? No, it's not.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So just shoot first, better not take any risks.
Maybe they would be better working in a Library.

 

[bluesjnr]

Using riot shields and heavy protective vests, while surrounding the assailant, isolating them from potential victims, and maintaining safe distance until the individual can be hemmed in by shields or (slowly) disabled at range with non-lethal means.

None of which was present nor is possible when the assailant starts at stabbing distance.

No riot shields here, standard stab vest worn, non lethal means deployed well within lethal range. Educate yourself.


Officer stabbed but still manages to get the job done. No riot shield and standard stab vest. Educate yourself.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7372197031768526112

Have a look at this one around the 3.36 mark and tell me where the riot shields are that stopped this man, despite being tasered, lunging at and attempting to stab the officer who opened the door to engage the man who had two knives. Educate yourself

Every one of these videos shows that the likelyhood of the mother and child being killed in the UK is practically nil. As long as you accept the continued use of lethal force off the bat your country will continue to rack up these shameful executions.