Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

[Rouser2]

"... take it to the bank. She did not have a flat EEG." --

"DR. BERNADINE HEALY, FMR. HEAD OF THE RED CROSS in remarks made on the Joe Scarboro Show, 3/31/05:

"...Well, I think this is the dangerous echo chamber of the press that we all know about where something is repeated. A good example was something I heard tonight, or someone said, “She is brain dead. She had a flat EEG."

"I can tell you, I have spoken to two of the neurologists who were on that panel in 2002. She did not have a flat EEG. I am saying that. You can take it to the bank. She did not have a flat EEG. What she had was an EEG with lots of activity, but one that had a lot of technical flaws. And it needed to be repeated.
And guess what, Joe? It was not repeated. And that is very, very troublesome from a medical point of view."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7356580/

Troublesome from an ethical point of view as well, I should think. How do you sentence someone to death for being brain dead with no contemporaenous clinincal evidence???

 

[Rob Lister]

Troublesome from an ethical point of view as well, I should think. How do you sentence someone to death for being brain dead with no contemporaenous clinincal evidence???

Her feeding tube was pulled because she was in a PVS, not because she was braindead. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that she was braindead (with the exception of a few people on this board).

 

[Bikewer]

Of course there was electrical activity in her brain. Her brain-stem was sufficiently active to keep her bodily processes running. No doubt there was random neural activation as well.

But the no awareness, no consciousness. All controlled by the thoroughly-damaged cerebral cortex.

 

[R.A.F.]

Originally posted by Rouser2

How do you sentence someone to death for being brain dead with no contemporaenous clinincal evidence???

It has become painfully appearent throughout this whole "mess" that you simply are incapable of rationally discussing this subject. Are you ever going to "let it go"? Or are you going to continue to demonstrate your complete lack of understanding concerning this case.

Just curious...

 

[Dancing David]

Ah, Scarborough the eminent Medical Professional, who quoted a doctor that had lost his license for fraud. The same JS who said that said doctor had been a Nobel Prize nominee.

You know when I was talking to bigfoot the other day they said that you don't have a flat EEG Rouser2, just no thoughts.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

It has become painfully appearent throughout this whole "mess" that you simply are incapable of rationally discussing this subject. Are you ever going to "let it go"? Or are you going to continue to demonstrate your complete lack of understanding concerning this case.

Just curious...

Not to derail (but to address your query)...

Some time back Rouser2 and a number of other forum members debated the JFK assassination for numerous pages. (Sadly, the thread was lost, though two more recent--and shorter--ones are here and also here.) Suffice it to say, the Rouser2 of the Terri Schiavo matter is true to form.

Now I don't mean to imply ridicule. But my JREF $1 million prediction is that you will never see him/her budge from his/her position, regardless of the strength or compelling logic of your argument. Indeed, you'll be the one--if at odds--to be ridiculed. Still, it can be good debate practice, so not all is lost.

In any event, welcome to the forum!

 

[Rouser2]

Re: Re: Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

Her feeding tube was pulled because she was in a PVS, not because she was braindead. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that she was braindead (with the exception of a few people on this board).

PVS is synonomous with brain dead. There was no contemporaenous evidence of PVS -- The final advisory coming from three medical "experts", 3 pro-death appointed by MS and the Court, and 2 pro-life appointed by the Schindler family. The predictable resutl? 3-2 in favor of death. Do you even have the faintest clue as to what the standard error rate is in the diagnosis of PVS patients?????

I sort of doubt it.

 

[Rouser2]

Of course there was electrical activity in her brain. Her brain-stem was sufficiently active to keep her bodily processes running. No doubt there was random neural activation as well.

But the no awareness, no consciousness. All controlled by the thoroughly-damaged cerebral cortex.

Of course all of that is pure speculation. After all alleged artifact activity was filtered out, all potential brain activity was also filtered. Those who have a respect for life would have insisted on at least another test. But not repeat test was performed. Not that the EEG tests actually diagnose brain death. It does not. Nor does it diagnose PVS. Do you have even the faintest clue as to what the standard error rate is amonst Neurologists is in diagnosiing PVS patients is????

I didn't think so.

 

[Vagabond]

She didn't have a cerebral cortex, which is the part of your brain that makes you, you. People are arguing she might have had some consciousness. This isn't an arguement to keep her alive but an arguement to let her die. If somebody doesn't want to be kept in that state that is exactly what they are talking about. To be alive with some dim awareness or worse lots of awareness but a prisoner in your body. That is why people have living wills to start with to avoid just that state.

 

[Rouser2]

Re: Re: Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

It has become painfully appearent throughout this whole "mess" that you simply are incapable of rationally discussing this subject. Are you ever going to "let it go"? Or are you going to continue to demonstrate your complete lack of understanding concerning this case.

Just curious...

It has become painfully apparent that some people are able to discuss facts, while others only can perform ad hominems. Obviously, it is you who cannot discuss facts.

 

[Rouser2]

Ah, Scarborough the eminent Medical Professional, who quoted a doctor that had lost his license for fraud. The same JS who said that said doctor had been a Nobel Prize nominee.

You know when I was talking to bigfoot the other day they said that you don't have a flat EEG Rouser2, just no thoughts.

Ah, Dancing David, who, having absolutely no clue at all, prefers to denigrate the venue rather than address the facts. Nor did the alleged doctor lose his license for "fraud". But Scarboro did provide balance in interviewing the lead Cheerleadr of the Death To Terri Gang -- Dr.Ronald Cranfor, the man who calls himself Dr. Death, whose professed goal was not just to kill Terri, but over a million Alzheimers' patients. Who knows? You may be next.

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Vagabond [/i]

>>She didn't have a cerebral cortex,

How do you know that????

 

[Vagabond]

Originally posted by Vagabond [/i]

>>She didn't have a cerebral cortex,

How do you know that????

I saw an x-ray of her head on some show and there was a big hole where her cerebral cortex used to be. It atrophied away from lack of use. This also happens in alzheimer patients. The brain physically ceases to exist. Most people don't understand what this means either. Doing anything without a cerebral cortex would be the medical equivelent of getting up out of bed without having any legs. But there are morons who think that isn't impossible either. They are entitled to their stone age opinion but we shouldn't be considering their opinion in making any decisions in the 21st century.

 

[Rouser2]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin [/i]

>>Now I don't mean to imply ridicule. But my JREF $1 million prediction is that you will never see him/her budge from his/her position, regardless of the strength or compelling logic of your argument.

So, do you have even a scintilla of "compelling logic???" Obviously not.

 

[varwoche]

Re: Re: Re: Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

PVS is synonomous with brain dead.

According to...?

 

[Rouser2]

I saw an x-ray of her head on some show and there was a big hole where her cerebral cortex used to be. It atrophied away from lack of use. This also happens in alzheimer patients. The brain physically ceases to exist.

What you saw was a Ct Scan, allegedly compared to a healthy brain. Are you a radiologist? A Neurologist? Can you read a CT scan? Would you like to make an easy $100,000??? Then log onto Dr.Thomas P. Boyles blog. He is a radiologist offering a $100,000 award to any neurologist ( or any one else) who can successfully tell the difference from Terri Schiavo's alleged PVS CT brain scan from other scans which are not PVS. You can collect your reward at: http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/codeblueblog_is.html

 

[Kerberos]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

According to...?

Rouser2 of course, and Rouser is IIRC a Libertarian, haven't you learned yet that Libertarians are the supreme authority on the True Meaning (TM) of any word. Don't tell me you still use dictionary.com.

 

[Roadtoad]

As seems to be typical of Rouser2, he has yet to read or even acknowledge the evidence posted by others, while continuing to post the speculation of others.

(1.) Fact: Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex was destroyed. She could not think, she could not feel, her actions were involuntary and random.

(2.) Fact: Michael Schiavo was Terri's legal next of kin. He had the right to decide her fate.

(3.) Fact: There was no way to "save" Terri. There was NOTHING to save, except her body.

(4.) Fact: The courts after years of listening to argument after argument stating that Terri Schiavo could not be revived to any extent that she would or could live anything resembling a normal life, (she didn't even have bladder or bowel control, as near as I can recall reading), decided enough was enough. And while there is some judicial activism in all of this, much of that wouldn't have been able to happen if people had just LET HER DIE.

I'm coming into this from an interesting angle. I'm at home for a few weeks more because I got rear-ended by some @$$hole who took off once he saw I wasn't dead. I have a serious concussion, and get very dizzy for several minutes at a time. I'm recovering, but it will take time.

However, I will recover. The dizziness has begun to fade, and more than anything else, I simply ache all over. I can still think, I can still interact. I am still me.

If I were not able to do that, it would be my choice, assuming there were no chance of revival, that I be allowed to die. I cannot imagine that anyone else would want to be left breathing even though there was nothing else left of them.

 

[Vagabond]

What you saw was a Ct Scan, allegedly compared to a healthy brain. Are you a radiologist? A Neurologist? Can you read a CT scan? Would you like to make an easy $100,000??? Then log onto Dr.Thomas P. Boyles blog. He is a radiologist offering a $100,000 award to any neurologist ( or any one else) who can successfully tell the difference from Terri Schiavo's alleged PVS CT brain scan from other scans which are not PVS. You can collect your reward at: http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/codeblueblog_is.html

To a certain extent I was taking the word of the doctor on the show, you are also doing that just with a doctor with a different opinion. It doesn't take a doctor to notice the big black hole in the middle of her brain however. Although I think you might also have one, and apparently you can still write albiet poorly.

 

[Rouser2]

To a certain extent I was taking the word of the doctor on the show, you are also doing that just with a doctor with a different opinion. It doesn't take a doctor to notice the big black hole in the middle of her brain however. Although I think you might also have one, and apparently you can still write albiet poorly.

Some people simply make pronouncements from their perch from on high. Others put their money where their mouth is. Have you got even a paltry $25,000??? Then go to Dr.Boyle's blog and pick up your easy $100,000. Or do you just make pronouncements from your own perch on high???