Terri Schiavo's (Flat?) EEG

Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

varwoche said:
It makes little sense for the thread to continue beyond this post. To his credit, Rouser2 has for all practical purposes proclaimed that he's a blind zealot, and that black is the same color as light grey (both being non-white afterall). Once a zealot fesses up, there's not much more to discuss unless one enjoys slamming one's head into walls.

Well, one certainly doesn't often see the phrase "to his credit" used in exactly that fashion. :)
 
csense said:
This presupposes a conclusion, as to the very thing that you are testing for, which suggests a biological correlation, rather than a behavioral correlation.

If you conlude, as you have done above, that Terri did not have that, then you are basing your conclusion that the cerebral cortex is the causal determinant of consciousness, and this is exactly what the vast majority of neurologists have done in this case.

A very good point, csense. There is considerable debate among neuroscientists about the nature of consciousness and the tendency to locate it in the cerebrum. From http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1CD234FA "Small lesions in the midbrain and thalamus of patients can lead to a complete loss of consciousness, while destruction of circumscribed parts of the cerebral cortex of patients can eliminate very specific aspects of consciousness"

This tendency is largely down to the fact that random neuroscientist Joe Bloggs, can hook someone up to an EEG via a standard computer any time he likes and take note of electrical activity. But injecting dyes and stuff to note activity in the midbrain requires some very expensive kit. (As a matter of fact, it actully makes sense to locate consciousness in the mid-brain because it is older and evolution is economical.)
Observation of behavior, therefore, is irrelevant from this perspective since such behavior which would suggest awareness at any level, would contradict a perceived truth.
In otherwords, it is possible that an a priori decision might have been made that resulted in a lack of proper cognitive testing of Terri? Possibly, but I'd say it's more likely that Terri almost certainly was tested initially following the onset of her condition. How thoroughly, though, I don't know (thought I hope it wasn't just by someone who thought[/i[] they knew what they were doing). My suspicion is that over the 15 years, testing for cognition, like rehabilitation, was all but abandoned except for the occasional ad hoc tests by Terri's nurses, doctors and familiy towards the end.

Focussing on the fact that specialist Neurologists were called in for occasional assesments for an hour every month or so doesn't tell us that much - but a thorough examination by a Clinical/Neuropsychologist spending quality time with Terri would almost certainly have given us more to go on, in my strong opinion.

To counter the fact that the videos of Terri are (allegedy) 4 years old I'd counter that by saying that she if she was capable of the things we see her do in the video after 11 years of little or no rehabilitation there is good reason to think she might have been capable of a lot more with 11 years (or 15 years) of rehabilitation.

It is however, too late for Terri now and we must all accept that we don't know all the facts. Accusations from either side are unwarranted.

People should, however, be more vigilant about future cases and look into writting up living wills to help avoid the sitation in the first place.
_
HP
 

(Rouser2)
There are a few things in this life that I am absolutely certain of. I am certain that 2 plus 2 equals 4 (despite the new, newer math), that if you jump from a tall building, you are likely to go "splat," and the Terri Schiavo was the victim of a court ordred homicide, murder, execution.




(varwoche)
It makes little sense for the thread to continue beyond this post. To his credit, Rouser2 has for all practical purposes proclaimed that he's a blind zealot, and that black is the same color as light grey (both being non-white afterall). Once a zealot fesses up, there's not much more to discuss unless one enjoys slamming one's head into walls.

You're being too hard on him.

Consider this:

Terri's death was either accidental (without human intent) or willful (with human intent)
Here, it's obvious which category she falls in.

Now since her condition was such that she wasn't already in the process of dying, and that this condition was being technologically suspended, it leaves us few options, notably: suicide, execution, or murder...and the court order could be viewed as assisting in one these three. Like it or not, those are the only options we have. If anyone knows of any other, I'm all ears.

If you believe that the evidence has not shown the intent of the individual, then it's not unreasonable to conclude that the state, however well intentioned in their own right, assisted in either execution or murder.

Given the audience and attention that this case had, it would really be a stretch and leap of faith to entertain the notion of a comedy of errors, however subtle.
 
HypnoPsi said:


In otherwords, it is possible that an a priori decision might have been made that resulted in a lack of proper cognitive testing of Terri? Possibly, but I'd say it's more likely that Terri almost certainly was tested initially following the onset of her condition. How thoroughly, though, I don't know (thought I hope it wasn't just by someone who thought they knew what they were doing). My suspicion is that over the 15 years, testing for cognition, like rehabilitation, was all but abandoned except for the occasional ad hoc tests by Terri's nurses, doctors and familiy towards the end.


I tend to agree with you intuitively, however, we just don't know since I believe the medical records have not been made public. What is important, and relevant, are the time frames when this issue became a court case, and all the information therein that the court drew upon.

In re Guardianship of Schiavo, 780 So.2d 176, 177, the Second District appellate court in 2001 said this:



Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state...


It seems clear to me that the court based their decision, or at least a large part of it, upon biological evidence, rather than behavioral evidence, which is very troubling, at least from my perspective...and if this opinion reflects those of the Doctors, which it seems it would, then again, obsevation of behavior which might indicate awareness would be summaily rejected since it would contradict what these Doctors hold to be true.

Now, they could very well be correct, but until science can supply us with a mathematical description of human consciousness, and thereby able to show through contradiction that such and such is not possible, then to make the statements that the court did, irregardless if it is supported by the testimony of the physicians, is simply irresponsible when a presons life is on the line.
 
csense said:
What is important, and relevant, are the time frames when this issue became a court case, and all the information therein that the court drew upon.
Indeed. And it is this that makes me suspicious that, towards the end at least, comprehensive cognitive testing was all but abandoned. While emotionally driven, the fight in the public arena (certainly in the newswires supporting Terri's family) would have seized upon any cogntive-behavioural evidence that came to light in court if such had supported their cause. The same, of course holds true for those supporting Michael's cause. In otherwords, it is the absense of debate about cognitive test that suggests to me cognitive tests were absent.
In re Guardianship of Schiavo, 780 So.2d 176, 177, the Second District appellate court in 2001 said this:

Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state...


It seems clear to me that the court based their decision, or at least a large part of it, upon biological evidence, rather than behavioral evidence, which is very troubling, at least from my perspective...and if this opinion reflects those of the Doctors, which it seems it would, then again, obsevation of behavior which might indicate awareness would be summaily rejected since it would contradict what these Doctors hold to be true.

Now, they could very well be correct, but until science can supply us with a mathematical description of human consciousness, and thereby able to show through contradiction that such and such is not possible, then to make the statements that the court did, irregardless if it is supported by the testimony of the physicians, is simply irresponsible when a presons life is on the line.
I entirely agree with the paragraph immediately above but I'm not prepared to take a stand on what Doctors hold to be true or summarily rejected. (I fail to see how neurologists, obviously being very highly qualified neuroscientists themselves, could be unaware of the importance of the role of the midbrain in conscious awareness.)

What interests me though is your quote from the court documents:

"At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state..."

Note that it says that *much* of Terri's cerebral cortex was gone rather than *most*. That would certainly fit with the CAT scan images I've seen online. Nobody could fault a radiologist or neurologist who looked at these images and concluded that Terri's capacity for cognitive processing was significantly impaired - but the leap to the conclusion that this automaticaly means that Terri was definately in an "unconscious reflexive state" by the court can and should be questioned.

While there is not enough in the videos to go on conclusively they definately can't be said to support a PVS diagnosis - which is, of course, why Terri's supporters would have chosen these videos.

I would encourage people to scrutinise this case in a way that doesn't pick over Terri's bones for political gain, while not entirely ignoring the very real possibility that an unjust tragedy may have occurred either. Alas, given America's propensity to emotionalise issues, I'm not sure that will be the way things go as the innevitable round of book publishing gets underway.

If all that can become of this is that people now become more aware of the need for living wills (or, more accurately, that lawyers become more aware of the need to remind clients who are considering marriage of the need for living wills) and have an increased awareness of the need for cognitive-behavioural testing by a qualified clinical/neuropsychologist in such situations, then I think that's what people should focus on rather than arguing over the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of decisions made in the past. Terri can't be helped now, but others can.
_
HP
 
Bikewer said:
Right after the lady's death, they had a couple of neuroscientists on NPR's Science Friday show. One, who was also a physician, said that the diagnosis of PVS is always made over a period of time, and includes a variety of tests and observations.

He, like others in the medical community I've seen or heard interviewed, said that past six months, there is no such thing as a "persistant" state; invariably they are permanent after that period.

"Invariably," "they" are wrong 37 to 75 percent of the time.
 
Re: To Rouser2:

Originally posted by King of the Americas [/i]

>>Your stance sir, demands that you contradict yourself. One minute you say Terri was like a patient 'locked-in', then the next argument she is speaking clearly...

>>It seems to me that the most inconsistant thing in this post has been your understanding & presentation of what exactly Terri was capable of.

The most consistent thing in the pro-death to Terri posts of others is the ignorance from which they speak. Terri was indeed both locked-in, and cognitive. She was aware and then soon unaware. Read the notes of her medical history. There was enough cognition to keep her alive for those who loved her, and maybe, just maybe too much cognition to keep her alive for those who wanted her dead.

Notes on Terri's Medicaal History:

http://www.theempirejournal.com/02230551_medical_observations_sh.htm
 
Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

Upchurch said:
Um... you don't think that website is tad unobjective? Look at the side bars.

Well, it's Rouser. He thinks "being informed" means "reading web sites that back up my point of view and repeating their information as gospel truth as often as humanly possible."

He's been caught in some whoppers (like his bizarro claim that no EEG had been performed "in the last ten years"). He keeps on going, though. At least nobody can accuse him of keeping an open mind!
 
Rouser2:

stfu4.jpg
 
Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

Upchurch said:
Um... you don't think that website is tad unobjective? Look at the side bars.

Um, don't you think the information, um, speaks for itself as presenting both the um, pro-life (non-vegetative) and the, um, pro-death (vegetative) "indications"????
 
I did not read the whole debate (I do not have the time to go through all 5 pages, let alone other threads). If I understand correctly, Rouser2 is arguing that Terri could communicate, and that she did so.

I just wanted to point out to the US readers to the recent UK case of Abigail Witchall, young pregnant woman and mother of one, who was brutally stabbed several days ago. She is paralysed and cannot speak, but from the very beginning has been communicating with her parents and the police by mouthing answers (yes and no) and by blinking (somebody reading the letters of the alphabet to her and she blinks when they reach the letter she wants to say). You can see some BBC links here , here and here

Here are some of the quotes:

Responding to questions that Mrs Witchalls had been communicating with the family through blinking, Det Supt Harper said: "Her family are with her and at her bedside almost permanently and they are able to communicate with her in a small way."

Mrs Witchalls, who was pregnant with her second child when she was attacked last Wednesday, has been communicating with family members through facial expressions and by blinking.

She was interviewed by detectives for six hours on Monday and another six hours on Tuesday, mouthing "yes" or "no" answers to many of the questions.

If in this case the police and parents are able to communicate within days of the incident, and take a police statement from her, how come that no such communication was established with Terri in 15 years? Was it perhaps because she could not communicate after all, Rouser?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

Rouser2 said:
Um, don't you think the information, um, speaks for itself as presenting both the um, pro-life (non-vegetative) and the, um, pro-death (vegetative) "indications"????

What "information"?

I see a lot of unsupported, unsustantiated claims.

It's a lot like the arguments for homeopathy, lots of words, no meaning, no facts, no evidence, no truth.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

jj said:
What "information"?

I see a lot of unsupported, unsustantiated claims.

It's a lot like the arguments for homeopathy, lots of words, no meaning, no facts, no evidence, no truth.

But, jj, there's plenty of evidence that Rouser2 is a fundie, which means that facts are meaningless.

(ETA: Geez, I miss Franko and Billiefan...)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

Roadtoad said:
But, jj, there's plenty of evidence that Rouser2 is a fundie, which means that facts are meaningless.

Well, it's the fact that facts are meaningless to him that indicates he's a fundie.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

Cleon said:
Well, it's the fact that facts are meaningless to him that indicates he's a fundie.

You know, I always did think that having a Dalek as an avatar was symptomatic of some sort of moral/intellectual deficiency...:p
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

Roadtoad said:
You know, I always did think that having a Dalek as an avatar was symptomatic of some sort of moral/intellectual deficiency...:p


Nah. For my moral deficiencies, I have much more obvious symptoms. ;)
 
Tanja said:
I did not read the whole debate (I do not have the time to go through all 5 pages, let alone other threads). If I understand correctly, Rouser2 is arguing that Terri could communicate, and that she did so.

I just wanted to point out to the US readers to the recent UK case of Abigail Witchall, young pregnant woman and mother of one, who was brutally stabbed several days ago. She is paralysed and cannot speak, but from the very beginning has been communicating with her parents and the police by mouthing answers (yes and no) and by blinking (somebody reading the letters of the alphabet to her and she blinks when they reach the letter she wants to say). You can see some BBC links here , here and here

Here are some of the quotes:



If in this case the police and parents are able to communicate within days of the incident, and take a police statement from her, how come that no such communication was established with Terri in 15 years? Was it perhaps because she could not communicate after all, Rouser?

After her loving husband got the "malpractice" settlement which he pledged would be used for his wife's unending therapy, he stopped all therapy. Terri was in and out. According to her medical record she was at times responsive.

http://www.theempirejournal.com/02230551_medical_observations_sh.htm

The most compelling report, or course, comes from Nurse Carla Iyer:

"To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for
Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to
believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens
while I was there. I became concerned because Michael wanted
nothing done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of
motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and
again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no
range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named
Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a
wash cloth in Terri's hand to keep her fingers from curling together,

-2-

and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and
misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she was alert
and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence,
saying such things as "mommy," and "help me." "Help me" was, in
fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds
of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in
discomfort, but it came out more like "pay." She didn't say the "n"
sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort
by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal
area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included
pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or
moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a
bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper
and scooted in bed on her bottom.

8. When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would always
recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way
toward me, saying "Haaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a
"hi", which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound

-3-

being only a second or two long. When I told her humrous stories
about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle,
sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body,
upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need
to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in
her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but
by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.
Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's,
someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always
demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in
her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well,
writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness, but they would
always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote
so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive
entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job
was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a
patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act,Schiavo abuse claims declared groundless


9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused

-4-

on Terri's death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?,"
"Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These
statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would
make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was
talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I
recall him making include "Can't anything be done to accelerate her death...'

http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/CIyerAffidavit090203.htm
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: To Rouser2:

jj said:
What "information"?

I see a lot of unsupported, unsustantiated claims.

It's a lot like the arguments for homeopathy, lots of words, no meaning, no facts, no evidence, no truth.

What is truth? Is "truth"when an alleged credentialed neurologist doctor who boastfully calls himself Dr.Death points to a CT scan which he is totally unqualifed to interpret, and tells the black-robed oath taker that the 2- dimensional image means the patient is brain dead? Is that what you call "evidence"??? Facts??? Well, that one black robed oath-taker thought so. But a more even handed judge might have given weight to the testimony of the lone radiologist , but he did not -- might have given more weight to those like Nurse Iyer who cared for her, but he did not -- might have given more weight to the family who loved her, but he did not. But all claims, unsupported by any valid facts such as recent MRI or PET scans, were given weight to the appointed Doctors of Death and one estranged husband. Now let's hear no more about "unsupported, unsubstantiated claims" -- it was just that kind of clap trap that led to the execution of an innocent, disabled 41 year old woman.
 

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