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Surface debacle

The thing that puzzles me most about the melting together of tablet and desktop that Microsoft seemingly desperately wants is the touch interface on a desktop. Who on earth wants this?!

I have/had the same thought, but apparently MS research found that people who are given touch screens on the desktop actually use them quite a lot.

I suspect might partially be a generational thing. My 2 yr old is very frustrated that he can't swipe or click the screen to start the umpteenth youtube version of Wheels on the Bus go round and round on my desktop :)
 
I suspect might partially be a generational thing. My 2 yr old is very frustrated that he can't swipe or click the screen to start the umpteenth youtube version of Wheels on the Bus go round and round on my desktop :)
You have one data point, and suspect it's a "generational thing". Well, it could be. Kids might be growing up expecting all screens to be touch screens.

But, even if they all are, I don't think they will be used a lot on large monitors (the kind used for desktop machines and television screens), mostly because of the "gorilla arm" effect (look it up), which is unlikely to go away any time soon.

And, of course, the smudging problem noted by erlando.

Touch screens on large monitors might have some limited use. It might be handy for virtual finger painting, or for manipulating virtual piles in a multi-touch manner that is hard to do with a mouse.

But, I don't think they will be used "a lot" any time soon. Not nearly to the extent that mobile devices utilize touch.
 
You have one data point, and suspect it's a "generational thing". Well, it could be. Kids might be growing up expecting all screens to be touch screens.

But, even if they all are, I don't think they will be used a lot on large monitors (the kind used for desktop machines and television screens), mostly because of the "gorilla arm" effect (look it up), which is unlikely to go away any time soon.

And, of course, the smudging problem noted by erlando.

Touch screens on large monitors might have some limited use. It might be handy for virtual finger painting, or for manipulating virtual piles in a multi-touch manner that is hard to do with a mouse.

But, I don't think they will be used "a lot" any time soon. Not nearly to the extent that mobile devices utilize touch.
Thing is, you'll need to design the workspace to allow to touch the screen for it to make sense. Most current desktop work stations are designed around the fact that there's no sense in touching the screen, so the screen is moved where it's out of the way. Hence, Gorilla Arms.

Simply adding touch capabilities to the screen does not transform a traditional workspace to a touchscreen workspace.

That's something Microsoft never grasped.
 
You have one data point

Did you deliberately or accidentally overlook the MS research I also mentioned and which I've pointed out to you before?

ETA: I looked up "Gorilla arm" effect. I don't see the relevance.
 
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Yeah, Windows 8 is a dog.

As I said, I know many people in IT who feel otherwise, two of my coworkers have it installed as their desktop OS.

So just asserting it is a dog is not really going to convince me. Yes many people hate the Metro interface, but many feel as an OS is is not bad and they even like it more than Win 7.
 
I would argue that Windows 8 is worse than Microsoft Bob. At least with Bob you knew where to get things: perhaps to the point where it felt condescending, but at least everything was on screen somewhere.

...
This is very different from Win7, and NOT "Virtually the same". And, it weakens your favorite argument just that much more.

"Virtually the same" as MY FOOT!!!
I agree with a lot of what you say, however as I am the interface guidance for the average staff member in my school district I am not sure much of this applies to the 'average user', many do not actually know what the Start or Windows button is, seriously I have to say 'the Start or Windows button' in the lower left of your desktop.

I often have to explain what the address bar is in the internet browser window, sometimes have help people figure out what browser they are using.

And so on and so, it seems that the average user really doesn't know much about using computers except 'I click this and go to the internet'.

So yes changes can be very frustrating to the average user, like when outlook.com became mail.office365.com, I expect about 500 calls about that in the next week. And so yes changes in OS structure and interface are frustrating to the average user who wants it to look and act the way it used to.

Again many people in IT I know actually like Windows 8 and find other things much more frustrating, usually dealing with end users.
 
I agree with a lot of what you say, however as I am the interface guidance for the average staff member in my school district I am not sure much of this applies to the 'average user', many do not actually know what the Start or Windows button is, seriously I have to say 'the Start or Windows button' in the lower left of your desktop.

I often have to explain what the address bar is in the internet browser window, sometimes have help people figure out what browser they are using.
If you are dealing with folks like that, then that's one thing. And, more power to you!

One of my points is that: A veteran of Windows operating systems shouldn't need to ask those types of basic questions.

When a veteran of Windows operating systems can't find the address bar in the Modern UI version of Internet Explorer (it doesn't stay on screen, and you have to figure out how to get it back), then that becomes embarrassing. Especially if there is no distinct advantage to learning the new interface. (Unlike the Office Ribbon which did have its advantages.)

Of course, it doesn't help beginner users, either, when things are not on screen as much as they should be. But, I suppose you'd be getting calls from them, somehow, either way.

Again many people in IT I know actually like Windows 8
And I know a few folks who like it, too. Though, the ones who don't like it outnumber them. And, even those who claim to like it still often use Start Menu replacements.
 
When a veteran of Windows operating systems can't find the address bar in the Modern UI version of Internet Explorer (it doesn't stay on screen, and you have to figure out how to get it back), then that becomes embarrassing.

It works pretty much the same way as all MUI apps.

Though I imagine it would be embarrassing if you're the type of person who tries to convince everything they know everything when (obviously) they don't.

I don't use MUI IE, don't think I've used it even once. Just for you I went and opened it, navigated somewhere and the address bar disappeared. Took me less than 2 seconds to "figure out" how to get it back.
 
That wasn't always the case with him. He did some quite good design and programming early on.
Such as?

Even with MS products that I consider to be of high quality, I don't credit them much for originality / creativity. The company was literally founded on software they scammed from someone else. (This is not meant to imply that I consider DOS high quality. ;) )

Anyway, I'm veering us off topic.
 
I don't get desktop touch screens at all. A lot of desktops in stores are ask in one touch today, and trying them out, admittedly for a small time, i just didn't get it. If be interested in reading the research. What do people find it useful for? It t takes a lot more energy to reach up and around the screen instead of moving the mouse. Or using keyboard shortcuts, but that is old school :p .

Maybe it would help in Metro apps, but I want to use the full desktop.
 
Such as?

Even with MS products that I consider to be of high quality, I don't credit them much for originality / creativity. The company was literally founded on software they scammed from someone else. (This is not meant to imply that I consider DOS high quality. ;) )

Anyway, I'm veering us off topic.

Tandy-100.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Model_100

Was a brilliant piece of work. And this was a workhorse of the journalism business into the early 2000s.
 
It works pretty much the same way as all MUI apps.
Not relevant to my point. But, if that's the case, then "all MUI apps" kinda suck. I can see why nobody likes them, including you.

But, this is supposed to be the FRESH NEW interface Microsoft wanted to push onto people, even in the desktop environment. So, it makes sense that a Windows user (even a veteran) would go to the MUI version of IE, first. That's what the icon on the Start Screen goes to.

And, thus, it also makes sense that the same person would get confused when the address bar disappears.

Took me less than 2 seconds to "figure out" how to get it back.
Took me 2 seconds, as well. That's 2 seconds of unnecessary cognitive load. And, evidence that the UI was poorly designed.

And, YES, 2 seconds DOES matter, in a widely-used OS interface. And, for some people, it would take longer than 2 seconds.

Also: A LOT of things in Windows 8 take 2 seconds (or more) to figure out. The IE address bar is only one example I chose. Add those up, and it's a LOT to learn, even for Windows veterans. With, I might add, no discernible advantage to doing so.

It mostly goes back to the concept of Conveyance, a term you brushed off a while back for no adequately explained reason. A good OS has offers good conveyance to the user. A bad one, like Windows 8, does not in most places. (The ribbon in the File Explorer being an exception.)
 
I don't get desktop touch screens at all. A lot of desktops in stores are ask in one touch today, and trying them out, admittedly for a small time, i just didn't get it. If be interested in reading the research. What do people find it useful for? It t takes a lot more energy to reach up and around the screen instead of moving the mouse. Or using keyboard shortcuts, but that is old school :p .

Maybe it would help in Metro apps, but I want to use the full desktop.

I'm open to the possibility that a touch screen might become useful on a laptop in the future, but not without some major revamping of the interface, something well beyond anything we have now.

A touch screen works on a phone because the tasks are simpler... make a phone call, take a photo, scroll through a series of photos, type a short text message, open and watch a video, scroll through the feed on a website.

And frankly, that is all many people ever want to do, which is why tablets are catching on.

What I do with a computer is different. I switch back and forth between multiple applications. I compose lots of text, I copy and paste material from one application from another, I edit photos and video, I am constantly managing and organizing files within a directory structure. I can't see a touch screen interface making that easier.
 
Personally, I love my Logitech T620 and the Magic Mouse before it because they were a happy medium of touch and desktop controls.

I would get a touchpad for even more controls, but I dislike how hard it is to select text on them, especially the modern buttonless design.
 
Personally, I love my Logitech T620 and the Magic Mouse before it because they were a happy medium of touch and desktop controls.

I would get a touchpad for even more controls, but I dislike how hard it is to select text on them, especially the modern buttonless design.

I have at times used both a touchpad (integrated with keyboard) and a trackball. I found it a good combination.
 
Not relevant to my point. But, if that's the case, then "all MUI apps" kinda suck. I can see why nobody likes them, including you.

I like them on a tablet.

But, this is supposed to be the FRESH NEW interface Microsoft wanted to push onto people, even in the desktop environment.

Strawman. I've never seen anyone associated with Microsoft even remotely make that claim, merely critics like yourself.

Took me 2 seconds, as well. That's 2 seconds of unnecessary cognitive load. And, evidence that the UI was poorly designed.

Yes, terrible how it takes 2 seconds to learn something new.

terrible.
 
The problem isn't the two second gap in just learning, but the task of remembering, and then carrying out the hidden task. That gap lasts even after you become accustomed, unlike good UIs.

Admittedly some things work well, like swiping along screens on tablets and phones. But hovering the mouse in the bottom left corner to reveal buttons? No.

As I mentioned before, I tried using hidden navbars in Android and the gap was still noticeable.

(All very IME, but backed by quite a few cognitive theories.)
 
I like them on a tablet.
They are not too terrible on a tablet. But, iPad and Android do it better.

Strawman. I've never seen anyone associated with Microsoft even remotely make that claim, merely critics like yourself.
I don't need to cite any claims from Microsoft. All I need to do is look at what the OS is presenting to the user.

When you start Windows 8, without any 3rd party utilities to change anything, where is the first place it always takes you?

And, on that screen, how many of the icons go MUI apps, instead of Desktop apps, by default? (Including those for Internet access and e-mail, etc.)

What interface do you see splashed across all the advertisements for Windows 8?

What items were removed from the Desktop interface, once you do get there?

Yes, terrible how it takes 2 seconds to learn something new.

terrible.

Here's another way to put it: Let's pretend the icon for IE changed to some random shape, instead of the "e" thing: Let's say it became a mouse eating cheese, because they decided that would be a good mascot, for some reason.

It might only take you and me 2 seconds to learn that was the new icon for IE. But, imagine how DUMB that decision would be, in general? What would a mouse eating cheese have to do with browsing the Internet? It doesn't make any sense!

(Perhaps they could have gone with a fox burning up the entire planet, but a different browser uses that.)

For similar, perhaps even less superficial reasons, there is no reason why the MUI version IE had to be designed that way, and also pushed onto people using Desktop machines. (Don't say it isn't being pushed: That's what the icon on the Start Screen goes to, even for Desktop machines!)

And, for some people, it would take a lot longer than 2 seconds.
 
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The problem isn't the two second gap in just learning, but the task of remembering, and then carrying out the hidden task. That gap lasts even after you become accustomed, unlike good UIs.

Are you suggesting that it takes me longer to get to the start menu on windows 8 than on windows 7, even though I know how to do it, because of the lack of a visual cue?

Any evidence?

Admittedly some things work well, like swiping along screens on tablets and phones. But hovering the mouse in the bottom left corner to reveal buttons? No.

You don't hover. You move the mouse to the bottom left corner and click. Exactly like Windows 7.

8.1 they've now putting a visual icon back, and it's an irritating waste of space.

As I mentioned before, I tried using hidden navbars in Android and the gap was still noticeable.

I'm assuming "the gap" is the time for the navbars to slide out? In MUI IE you can turn off the behaviour if you want. First item in options.

(and again, took me almost no time to find it, despite not being an MUI IE user)
 

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