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Space Fighters

neutrino_cannon said:
I'm not so sure about moving asteroids. Those things are really big. You might just as well take the engines you intended to scoot the rock with and fling them at the planet, which would yield higher kinetic energy anyhow (1/2m*v^2).

No, you get MUCH more bang for your buck with an asteroid, because most of the energy you're using would be the gravitational potential energy difference from falling onto the earth, not the actual rocket thrusters. First problem is, you could only realistically do that with a commet-like body that's already got an eliptical orbit, so that you only need a small relative deflection to hit your target. Second problem is, you'd be visible doing it, and it takes a long for anything large enough to be worth it (if it only produces nuke-like explosion, it's worthless - you need a planet-clearing explosion), so unless your target has much less capability than you do, they can take defenseive action against that (by, say, nuking your thrusters). So asteroid/commet attacks only work for an asymmetric conflict.
 
Ziggurat said:
Second problem is, you'd be visible doing it, and it takes a long for anything large enough to be worth it (if it only produces nuke-like explosion, it's worthless - you need a planet-clearing explosion), so unless your target has much less capability than you do, they can take defenseive action against that (by, say, nuking your thrusters). So asteroid/commet attacks only work for an asymmetric conflict.

Nothing keeps you from hiding a few ships behind the asteroid and intercept the anti asteroid devices your enemy brings up, so it could be an option for combat of equals, if you distract them enough the asteroid can hit.

Carn
 
Carn said:
Nothing keeps you from hiding a few ships behind the asteroid and intercept the anti asteroid devices your enemy brings up, so it could be an option for combat of equals, if you distract them enough the asteroid can hit.

Carn

We're talking about years here.

No rock bigger than a kilometer in any dimension is really usable in this manner - it needs to be hidden long enough to not have a concerted effort in deflecting it.
 
Carn said:
Nothing keeps you from hiding a few ships behind the asteroid and intercept the anti asteroid devices your enemy brings up, so it could be an option for combat of equals, if you distract them enough the asteroid can hit.

That's not how it works. To deflect an asteroid big enough to do major damage, you'd need to be pushing on it for months or years. The defender doesn't need to deflect the asteroid, all they have to do is blow up what YOU put on the asteroid so you can't keep pushing on it. Defending an essentially sitting duck target like that isn't easy, and you can't do it while hidden either. While it's easy to hide while cruising with engines off, any propulsion that can deflect an asteroid is going to be an easily-spotted beacon, so you can't hope to possibly do this without your enemy's knowlege as soon as you start (unless, again, they're much less advanced than you).
 
Ziggurat said:
That's not how it works. To deflect an asteroid big enough to do major damage, you'd need to be pushing on it for months or years. The defender doesn't need to deflect the asteroid, all they have to do is blow up what YOU put on the asteroid so you can't keep pushing on it. Defending an essentially sitting duck target like that isn't easy, and you can't do it while hidden either. While it's easy to hide while cruising with engines off, any propulsion that can deflect an asteroid is going to be an easily-spotted beacon, so you can't hope to possibly do this without your enemy's knowlege as soon as you start (unless, again, they're much less advanced than you).

And why do you have to do all the pushing close to the target?
Pick something that is a little beyond the edge of solar system, you can push out there for years and nobody would detect anything.
Then you of course have to wait for several years, till it impacts, but you have the advantage, that your enenmy has to move the asteroid of course instead of destroying just the engines.

Ok, maybe my gut is judging here wrong and it can be shown with numbers that pushing a asteroid, is easy to detect, if the asteroid is close enough to hit in the next 20 years.
Remember we are talking either about interplanetary wars, then prepairing such an asteroid would be difficult to detect, if pre war your future enemy makes you think it is a science mission, or about interstellar wars, but then either you realy have long times to prepare or you have some superlight speed travel, which makes pushing asteroids around a lot easier, especially if you use wormholes for travelling.

Carn
 
Carn said:
And why do you have to do all the pushing close to the target?
Pick something that is a little beyond the edge of solar system, you can push out there for years and nobody would detect anything.

It's not that simple. Even that far away, what you'd be detecting isn't the rockets themselves, or even the asteroid, but a HUGE, hot gas trail extending for miles and miles from the asteroid. Just like the tail of a commet is much bigger and brighter than the commet itself, the gas plume you'd create would stick out like a sore thumb in the infrared. You really can't hide that within a solar system from an enemy that has enough technology to do likewise.
 
Let's bear in mind that fusion bombs are untried as weapons of war and would be useless against terrorists. The same might be true of dropping big rocks on people. Small rocks, precisely targeted (as in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress") might be of more actual use.

I'm a firm believer that the practical weapon of choice in the future will be assassination , which needs no spaceplanes.
 
Ziggurat said:
Actually, not true at all. With engines off, a non-manned craft (such as a missile) could get quite cold. And recall that the blackbody emitance is proportional to the absorption, so with a reflective surface, you're not going to be radiating much at all.

It's not just a matter of energy coming in you've got to radiate out the energy that your vessel produces. Even an unmanned craft will need to run its computers, sensors and communications which means power and waste heat. That's got to go somewhere and realistically the only way you can get rid of it is by radiating it.

A cold mirror in space is invisible.

Is it? I would have thought that a shiny object in front of a terrawatt light source would be fairly easy to spot.

Also not true. While surprise is hard to come by, hiding is not. While it may be possible to see the thrust from such a long distance away, actually tracking a trajectory with enough accuracy to intercept at large distances is pretty much impossible.

No, tracking and predicting the trajectory of a thrusting spacecraft is trivial. Once you engage your engine I can measure the spectrum of the output of your drive to estimate thrust. My semi-acive sensors will lock onto you and measure acceleration. From those two pieces of information I have your mass and shortly after that I know with a reasonable degree of certainty where you're going and how long it will take for you to get there.

Invisibility at long ranges is entirely possible - they'll pick you up a few times as you do course corrections, but in between they've got nothing.

If by "long ranges" you mean outside the solar system then you might be partially right but you have to remember that in between burns your craft is radiating all the heat its engines, power plant, crew, life support and electronics generate. If you've helpfully made yourself really reflective then you're also visible to my semi-active sensors.

You won't be able to intercept at long distances. Missiles will be going close to as fast as you can make a ship go. If you send something out to intercept, relative velocities will be huge. You won't be able to target an invisible missile with accuracy, so you can only hope to get in the general area, but your relative velocity difference means you can't do anything even once you get there. You can't turn your interceptor around to match the missile, because it won't be able to outrun the missile (fuel requirements guarantee this), you can't hit it with lasers because you'll only have a short time to be in range and lasers won't penetrate reflective surfaces well, and you can't even touch it with anything else.

Interception at long ranges will be relatively easy because your missiles are easy to track. Remember that once they begin thrusting they will become extremely visible and their path is predictable.

I agree that interceptors will be "first pass" devices but the high velocity works in their favour because a scattering of debris in the path of an object will work quite effectively to destroy it (remember that once speeds exceed 3 km/sec the energy contained in an impact is equivalent to it's mass in TNT).

Lasers are likely to have a range of a few hundred thousand kilometres. Unless your missiles are closing at velocities close to c there's more than enough time to target and hit them. Target counter-measures are probably going to make it tricky and you might be able to overcome my point-defences by saturation but I am in with a fighting chance.

(I did a quick calculation based on the thrust generated by the Space Shuttles SRB's (26,000,000 N) to get top speed for a 1,000 kg missile boosting for 5 seconds of 130 km/sec. If it engaged me from 100,000 km away I'd have nearly 13 minutes to track and kill it.)
 
Ziggurat said:
It's not that simple. Even that far away, what you'd be detecting isn't the rockets themselves, or even the asteroid, but a HUGE, hot gas trail extending for miles and miles from the asteroid. Just like the tail of a commet is much bigger and brighter than the commet itself, the gas plume you'd create would stick out like a sore thumb in the infrared. You really can't hide that within a solar system from an enemy that has enough technology to do likewise.

What about a ion or even a phton drive?

I do not think it is possible to detect from the side the asteroid is accelerated towards(and there roughly the target will be) and photon drive is certainly only detectable in a small arch opposite the direction of acceleration, as long as you are not surronded by some material(e.g. gas cloud).

And i was thinking about picking something at the edge of a solar system or maybe even slightly outside.

Carn
 
Soapy Sam said:
Let's bear in mind that fusion bombs are untried as weapons of war and would be useless against terrorists. The same might be true of dropping big rocks on people. Small rocks, precisely targeted (as in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress") might be of more actual use.

I'm a firm believer that the practical weapon of choice in the future will be assassination , which needs no spaceplanes.

Keep in mind that wars among humans are often fought not for extinting the other side, but for control, resources, etc.
E.g. the mongols in the 12th-14th century, though being rather cruel, had no interest to kill everybody they conquered. In WW1 there was no interest on both sides to eradicate the other, both sides wanted to be just superior to the other side. US currently in Iraq has no interest to kill all Iraqis. In the cold war both sides had no real interest to nuke the other side to nothingness, because in principle both wanted to liberate the people cruelly suppressed by the other sides ruling class.

So often political goals or even moral standards, make use of nukes in human wars a pretty bad idea.

The few exceptions, where one side might have used nukes if avaible, are wars for living space, which is currently inhabitated by someone else. Then the first step is to simply force them away and if that does not work or is unavaible, killing starts, that happened in WW2 and in think also somewhere around 1920 in turkey.

If aliens come along and want to settle earth in numbers of billions and start a war to get rid of us, then the only reason not to use a few thousand fusion bombs or a dozen 10km+ asteroids, is that they might not want to wait a few hundred years before colonizing.

If they just want to destoy us, they will use bombs as well, unless asteroids do a better job at that.
If they want to colonize and have "clean" fusion bombs, they will use them in large numbers.

And even without clean bombs, they will still use a lot to decimate us by 50-75%, that can be easily done without hindering colonization for decades.

The idea aliens would want to enslave us, is a bit ridiculous, unless they think we are tasty. For most other tasks, their own machienes will be far better.

Carn
 
Carn said:
What about a ion or even a phton drive?

I do not think it is possible to detect from the side the asteroid is accelerated towards(and there roughly the target will be) and photon drive is certainly only detectable in a small arch opposite the direction of acceleration, as long as you are not surronded by some material(e.g. gas cloud).

And i was thinking about picking something at the edge of a solar system or maybe even slightly outside.

Carn

The problem with using ion drives is three-fold.

Firstly they have pathetic thrust so moving something the size of an asteroid with one is going to take a looong time (acceleration is typically around 1/1000 g).

The second problem is that, like any other device, they generate waste heat which has to be radiated off into space (making you easily detectable).

Thirdly an ion drive large enough to move an asteroid is not going to be much smaller than the space rock itself.
 
Camillus said:
The problem with using ion drives is three-fold.

Firstly they have pathetic thrust so moving something the size of an asteroid with one is going to take a looong time (acceleration is typically around 1/1000 g).

The second problem is that, like any other device, they generate waste heat which has to be radiated off into space (making you easily detectable).

Thirdly an ion drive large enough to move an asteroid is not going to be much smaller than the space rock itself.

The engine to accelerate the asteroid could simply be a fleet of ships, that wants to attack anyway.
To threaten a planet with billions of people and resources, you need a few hundred ships a hundred or more metres in size, because otherwise, you have not even the fire power to destroy just the major cities. But hundreds of large ships will be able to push a asteroid in a reasonable amount of time in the right direction.

About interception while asteroid is accelerated, i just realized, that that could be nearly impossible to do.

The reason might be, that whatever engine technique you are using will be as good as your enemies. So if it takes you 5 years to accelerate a asteroid at the edge of solar system to get it on course, it is rather unlikely, that your enemy can get from his planet in 5 years to you with a reasonable force to hinder your efforts.

The waste heat problem can be solved mostly by painting the side of your asteroid and engines, your enemy cannot see, white.
Also i think colling one side and heating the other is possible, it does not realy matter if the hidden side of the asterois starts melting.

All this of course assumes, that your enemy is not having detection devices all over his solar system and a little beyond, then non-relativistic asteroids get boring.

Real nasty would be long range relativistic projectiles. If you get close to light speed you can attack nearby systems with just a few year travel time and very little warning time.
Big problem is of course that targetting is a horror, any correction engines will simply have not enough thrust to change direction significantly close to light speed. And here gravity offers no help, the energy has to be supplied by yourself.

Carn
 
Carn said:
What about a ion or even a phton drive?

An ion drive is still kicking out hot gas - just at a lower rate and higher efficiency than a traditional chemical rocket. It may be harder to see, but it'll also take longer, so you'll have longer to see it.

As for a photon drive, the simple answer is no. The impulse you get per unit of energy from a photon drive is WAY to small, particularly when you're considering trying to push something big like an asteroid. Energy is going to be a limiting factor in ANY space ship you could conceive of for the next few hundred years - if it isn't, then much of this discussion isn't going to be relevant anyways. The energy to push an asteroid with a photon drive is probably more than the energy needed to vaporize the thing. So if you're advanced enough to do that, and your enemy is comparably advanced, they can do something even easier: they can deflect it with a photon drive-sized light source that burns off the side of the asteroid. That would impart MUCH more momentum (since you get a huge kick from the expelled matter, more than from the light itself) than putting the drive on the asteroid. So the defender can deflect it in much less time than the attacker can send the asteroid. If the attacker tries to drive the asteroid this way, they've got no stealth (again, huge plumes of hot gas), so that won't work either.
 
Camillus said:
It's not just a matter of energy coming in you've got to radiate out the energy that your vessel produces. Even an unmanned craft will need to run its computers, sensors and communications which means power and waste heat. That's got to go somewhere and realistically the only way you can get rid of it is by radiating it.

Sure. But you put your heat sink facing a narrow-angle aperture pointing out the back, aimed at the darkness of empty space. Chances of sighting are slim to none.

Is it? I would have thought that a shiny object in front of a terrawatt light source would be fairly easy to spot.

That's a natural instinct, but it's wrong. Don't think of it as a shiny object, think of it as a mirror. What you see when you look at a mirror isn't the mirror itself, but whatever the mirror is reflecting. From large distances, the angular divergence is VERY small, so you're talking about something close to a line projection. Light from the sun will hit a few surfaces of your missile in a very narrow solid angle arc, and be deflected in a very narrow solid angle arc. Only someone in that very narrow solid arc will see light reflected from the sun. Everyone else will see reflections of deep space, and a reflection of deep space on a background of deep space is invisible. This is somewhat counterintuitive because on earth, many shiny objects are also rounded (so a narrow solid angle from the sun is reflected into a large solid angle), and because the object itself takes up a large solid angle from the viewer's perspective.

This idea of using flat surfaces to minimize visibility is not new. The F117 stealth fighter works on exactly this principle. It sometimes "glitters" on enemy radar, when they catch a reflection, but most of the time they see nothing, and they can't track it with any accuracy from those glitters.


No, tracking and predicting the trajectory of a thrusting spacecraft is trivial. Once you engage your engine I can measure the spectrum of the output of your drive to estimate thrust. My semi-acive sensors will lock onto you and measure acceleration. From those two pieces of information I have your mass and shortly after that I know with a reasonable degree of certainty where you're going and how long it will take for you to get there.

Roughly speaking, but that's not enough. You need EXACT precision for an intercept, because anything you send out to meet it will have an enormous relative velocity and an incredibly tiny window of oportunity to act. We're talking many kilometers per second here - getting within tens of feet at those relative velocities is close to impossible. Think, for example, about the problems of current anti-ballistic missile technology. It's trivial to get approximate tracking, but that's not good enough. You need tracking down to feet, and you need to do it at huge relative velocities. Doing that with only data from the first half of a trajectory is impossible.


If by "long ranges" you mean outside the solar system then you might be partially right but you have to remember that in between burns your craft is radiating all the heat its engines, power plant, crew, life support and electronics generate. If you've helpfully made yourself really reflective then you're also visible to my semi-active sensors.

No, no, and no. Remember: missiles, no crew, VERY minimal power output during cruise. Main engines for initial thrust can in fact be a separate stage, so as soon as they're expended you drop them and don't worry about the heat. What minimal heat you do need to expell you let out the back side from a narrow aperture hole, a hole that you can point in whatever direction you want. And the shiny surface, well, we already went over that. A network of sensors might pick you up occasionally - it might pick up bright flashes of light now and then for a small fraction of a second, getting an accurate range on an object from one flash visible from only one sensor (because only one sensor could pick up that reflected beam from the sun at a time) is impossible. So they might know you're still coming, and have estimates for location, but that's not good enough for an intercept.


Interception at long ranges will be relatively easy because your missiles are easy to track. Remember that once they begin thrusting they will become extremely visible and their path is predictable.

Not with enough precision. Your main thruster burn is easily trackable. But after that, even a mechanical shove for disconnect (which you can't track accurately) that imparts a few feet per second relative velocity between the warhead part and the engine is going to mean that by the time intercept range comes up, your error is going to be huge.

I agree that interceptors will be "first pass" devices but the high velocity works in their favour because a scattering of debris in the path of an object will work quite effectively to destroy it (remember that once speeds exceed 3 km/sec the energy contained in an impact is equivalent to it's mass in TNT).

It's not that easy. You need to keep the cloud dense (meaning the chance to pass through it without impacting something is small), so you can't actually make it that big. And I think you're seriously underestimating how much error you're going to have. One foot per second error on your tracking is going to make an intercept like this impossible, and I can't see how you can expect to have better tracking than that.

Lasers are likely to have a range of a few hundred thousand kilometres. Unless your missiles are closing at velocities close to c there's more than enough time to target and hit them. Target counter-measures are probably going to make it tricky and you might be able to overcome my point-defences by saturation but I am in with a fighting chance.

This relies on being able to track it from a huge distance, but I don't see that happening either. If you only know where it is within a cubic kilometer (REALLY not hard to get that kind of uncertainty in your tracking), there's no way you're going to be able to hit it. In fact, with a mirrored surface, you could be pointing your laser right at it and not know, because the reflected light isn't going to come back to you. Since the absoption is probably going to be less than 1% of power, and angular divergence is going to significantly broaden any laser you use by the time it gets this far, I just don't see this as being practical, especially since you almost certainly WOULD be facing multiple missiles (each of which would be at least several kilometers apart). Your laser aparatus to do anything at these kinds of ranges, is going to take much more resoures to make than each missile it might have a chance to defend against.
 

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