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Space Fighters

Bikewer

Penultimate Amazing
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Space fighters

The idea of space combat involving some sort of fighter craft is a staple of SciFi films. I don’t know the earliest depiction of such military craft, but most film and TV series have shown small, fighter-aircraft sized vessels which maneuver much like WWII prop aircraft and fire unknown bolts of energy that mimic tracer rounds. To those with even a bit of science background, such craft are laughable, of course. The directors/writers of these films and series seem unable even to extrapolate from military hardware that we have now, and as a result the “fighters” seem rather silly.

What would a realistic space “fighter” look like? What kind of weapons would it have?
How would it be deployed?

The idea of a large “carrier” type ship is probably a sound one. Just as in contemporary navies, you’d think that a fleet of space-warships would include a number of types, ranging from potent cruisers with heavy weaponry to smaller support vessels and so forth.
The idea of fleet-protecting fighters would probably be carried over to space warfare.

The powerplant of choice is probably going to remain the rocket, in some form. Although it’s fun to speculate about magneto-gravimetric drives, “inertialless” drives, or whatever, none of these devices exist save in the minds of sci-fi authors, to my knowledge. Devices that are being developed for space research and exploration, such as ion drives, do not promise sufficient performance for military craft. Rockets are well-proven, and can be refined even more, but present considerable problems. First, they are very thirsty. The high-performance WWII-vintage fighter, the ME-262 “Comet”, had only about 3 minutes of engine time with it’s fuel load.
This means our fighter is going to need rather large fuel tanks for the necessary combustible and oxygenating agents. Of course, in space, we need not worry about aerodynamics, but we do need to worry about mass and inertia. More mass means slower acceleration and maneuvering. The sleek, highly maneuverable craft that movie directors love are probably not possible with foreseeable technology.
Fueling will be a problem too. Our “carrier” must carry large quantities of highly-volatile fuels and oxygenating agents, and fueling fighters in combat could be risky indeed. The Germans learned this well with above-mentioned Comet, loosing more to fueling accidents than to enemy action.

Maneuvering our fighter will be somewhat difficult as well. Using rockets, it would seem that some form of thrust-vectoring (steering with the rocket’s nozzle) would be best for primary maneuver, while attitude jets would make fine adjustment. I have speculated about the use of potent gyroscopes for attitude adjustment.

The energy weapons of film are probably not going to work either. Lasers capable of generating sufficient power can be built but are large and bulky, and require enormous energy. The proposed idea for an ICBM shoot-down aircraft requires a 747-class aircraft to carry the necessary equipment.
Particle beams came to the public attention during the initial Star Wars research, but again, promising weapons were large and bulky, and required huge outlays of energy.

One could conceivably make fighter craft largely immune to laser fire by making them highly reflective.

More likely, we would see extrapolations of present weapons systems. Currently, we can use fire-and-forget missile systems that can engage and destroy enemy aircraft at 100 miles plus. These can be targeted by the pilot using advanced radar and fired with the ease of a video game. Select target and push button.
In space, such missiles would achieve higher velocity and may have more range as well.
They would require thrust-vectoring for maneuver, however. Presumably, by such time as space warfare would be possible, “brilliant” weapons that operate autonomously would be commonplace. In fact, it’s easy to consider that fighter aircraft would be largely unmanned, and simply launched from the carrier with “pilots” remaining aboard, monitoring their fighters through highly-evolved feedback systems. Communications lag would no doubt limit range, however, and it might be conceivable to send a few human pilots out with the ability to control a number of drone fighters.

Much as in today’s aircraft, projectile weapons would be available for use at closer ranges. With no trajectory to worry about, and no loss of velocity due to atmospheric drag on projectiles, range and targeting would be simplified. Even small projectiles could be extremely damaging at the great speeds that would characterize space warfare.
Such projectiles would endanger all and sundry in the combat area, and timed warheads might be necessary to ensure the safety of one’s own fleet.

Advanced projectile drivers like rail guns would no doubt be effective space weapons, especially with computerized targeting.

We should assume that target acquisition would advance along present lines, with ever-more sophisticated radars and other detection systems being employed. Stealth technology will no doubt be of very high importance, and our fighter aircraft may well look like a bulky, multi-faceted ball.

Electronic warfare might assume a great deal of importance as well, and space fleets might spend a lot of time attempting to monitor each other’s IFF (Identification, Friend or Foe) frequencies, radars, and the like, and even trying to hack command and control systems with small, stealthy intelligence and electronic warfare devices.

Sure, screaming around in an X-wing or Viper might well be a lot more fun, but most likely the future will be far different. Anyone else tempted to speculate?
 
Well since in reality you are stuck in the sol system for any form of combat the battles would be sige operations the only things worth having would be the various rocks (so you control some interorbital space big deal we will just go round you). Big craft are out since you are never going to make the things nuke proof in fact warfare is pretty much out because a few antimatter missiles would be all that is required for muterly assured destruction to take over.

If we stick to sublightspeed intersytem wars make no sence since there are no rescources to compete over and any fleet you send is going to be massivly outdated by the time it arrives.

If we reomve the light speed limit intersystem warfare becomes posible however carriesrs are out puting that many resources in on places is dumb (carriers are obsulete in todays context anyway). Fighter will be nothing more than long range missile carriers. They will probably have all the stearing capcity of a brick. Assuming there is quite an imprvovement from current values then the poilets may be able to handle 15gs for sustsained periods which means they are still going to be massivly worse than unmaned craft. No one is likely to target the craft anyway because the misiles they fire are going to be the problem (even if they are only fireing hbombs you can't aford to let them hit the surface of your planet which is what they are likely to be aimed at.
 
Enterprise vs Imperial Star Destroyer... I dont know, we will have to construct something like that in a very far future, I doubt we can imagine the technologies that will be available.
 
May I suggest you read "Hellburner", by C.J.Cherryh, which is a fictional account of a development project of a carrier borne- weapons platform for insystem use.

As the carrier itself is capable of FTL travel (or of travel in a "hyperspace" where c is a great deal higher than in realspace), the kinetic energy alone of the ship on breakout to realpace is incredibly dangerous. Only complex computer interfaces can control the thing.

Now the crew has to fly it...

(The story is a sequal to "Heavy Time" and is part of Cherryh's excellent "Merchanter" series. Very readable.)
 
People will no longer fight wars like we do now. If a "space country" has a beef with another one they send their best swordsperson up against the other side's and they duke it out with rapiers. The one who doesn't die wins the "war" for their side.
 
Unless they find a way to make good turns in space, fighters would be useless.


And any propulsion system would be probaly based upon plasma.
 
I would be surprised if attack (manned or otherwise) platforms were used at all. Just fling some missiles or photons at the enemy, it's far easier.

Assuming you did have to use "fighters", for whatever reason, they sure as heck aren't going to be pointy. In fact, they probably won't even have transparencies on them at all.

Rocket propulsion isn't as bad as you make it sound. Remember, space is frictionless, you just need to fire the engines for a bit, and you'll drift at a more or less constant rate in the opposite direction. Plus, rockets have gotten a good deal better since the me-163 first flew, now sixty years ago. Once gain though, why you would have a rocket with a person and some guns strapped to it drift out toward the enemy, unleash the payload and drift back as opposed to simply flinging the equivalent payload sans pilot and weapons systems is beyond me.

Alternative possibilities for propulsion include ion drives (real life technology that featured on the DS1 and NEAR space probes), and a myriad of other confusingly-classified electrical propulsion schemes. These systems tend to have exhaust velocities far higher than chemical ones (and are therefore more efficient), but don't have anywhere near the thrust. An ion engine measures thrust in ounces, if that. Clearly, you aren't going to be tearing up the night sky.

Incidentally, the ghostly blue glow of my last avatar (as if anyone cares) was taken from a picture of an ion engine being tested here on terra firma. The charged particles the engine expels at high velocity are straight out of a sci-fi movie, it's quite beautiful. See this for a crash course in electrical propulsion

Rail guns are still impractical thanks to horrible barrel wear. If you have a rail gun that performs anything like a conventional gun, it tends to tear the rails out every time you shoot it. Their close relative, the guass rifle, doesn't have the barrel erosion problems, but isn't anywhere near as competitive on a mass to performance basis or energy consumption to performance basis.

Directed energy weapons suffer from high-mass batteries and capacitors, but once you tack a nuclear reactor onto the thing, I think it becomes quite useable. A hydrogen fluoride laser would be another good choice.

Another choice is a particle-beam weapon. All you Battletech enthusiasts, read this piece of technobabble as "PPC". Basically, the idea is to fling charged particles at high speed downrange where they will do bad things to the target.
 
Electromagnetically propelled bullets would work in space. So would missiles. Weightless projectiles travelling at hypersonic speeds with no wind resistance could puncture anything. The only problem is the recoil. However, some kind of release and activate system can be used for missiles. And as an alternative, a chemical laser might work pretty well in space. Anything big like a plasma weapon or a railgun could still be an option.

The carrier idea is probably your best option, because fighters need to be small so they're hard to hit, and they need to move really fast, easily. Even in orbit around Earth, it might be too much to give them enough power to enter space from the ground.

My guess is your average space fighter wouldn't look like a plane, since it's not designed to maneuver in an atmosphere. I'm thinking it would have a good, spherical design so there would be no corners to blow apart the armor. Propulsion thrusters would be incorporated into the shell, probably on all sides for all the degrees of freedom. I don't know what you'd make the shell out of, maybe bulletproof ceramic or something.

Probably remotely operated, or just left to an autonomous AI, because then you don't have to worry about life support systems. Also, I'm thinking it would be a bad idea to fill a fighter with pressurized air that would effectively disable it if the armor is pierced. You want this thing to run with more than hole in it, even keep fighting if heavily damaged. A fragile, air-breathing pilot inside could ruin all that. Now if only you could get a computer hardy enough to survive accelleration that would kill a man, you'd have a serious manuverability advantage. I can imagine one of these things spinning all over place, spraying bullets everywhere. These things could wreak havoc on enemy spy sattellites (and civillian communications sattellites, if you're not careful).

Then again, human pilots may turn out to be better after all. You never know with these things, it may be cheaper and easier to use living pilots.

Want to take the battle into deep space? Fine. Stick them in formation around your carriers, like a bunch of mini death moons. Their superior manuverability would make them excellent defenders. The carrier design should allow them to reload, refuel, and deploy quickly.

Now all you need is a carrier. The design would have to be different, because it's going to accomidate people for a very long duration of time. That means you'll need gravity, life support, self-sustaining agriculture, crew quarters. Not to mention a hangar for your fighters, a way to resupply them quickly. Proabably wouldn't leave anything spinning on the outside, because that would tell the enemy right where the life support is.

I have no idea what high impact weapons you would put on a carrier. Probably giant railguns, or missile launching platforms. And then some kind of minigun coverage in case enemy fighters got too close. I wonder how effective nuclear weapons would be in space, especially combined with a bunker busting design... blowing other carriers apart is a good thing, as long as they're not yours.

Screw FTL, right now we have no way of doing that, and I'm thinking battle at this point would be limited to fights between nearby planets. Probably between the moon and Earth, as well as Earth to Mars at certain times. That's where the colonies would be if we needed them. Why there would ever be a war in these areas is beyond me, but the whole war in space thing was assumed from the beginning.

So I'd give the carrier nuclear drives, which have been effectively tested since the 1960's, I think. You might use the reactor to create weapons grade material, in case you were going to nuke an enemy carrier, or planet. Might not be too healthy for the crew, though. Ion propulsion would also work for long distances, but it would not be good for manuverability. A carrier might need to suddenly accellerate or decellerate.

So we have a carrier in 3 basic sections- propulsion, life support, and fleet maintanence/storage. I've already explained the first two, but the third might be tricky. This is where all the fighters must be stored, repaired, fueled, loaded, and launched. Probably would work best in an assembly line fashion. You would have these tubes running along the sides of the carrier to accommodate the fighters, or holes. One side for entry, the other for release. Shouldn't be too difficult to move them along at zero gravity. You could do the whole thing with auto manufacturing robots.
 
c4ts said:
So we have a carrier in 3 basic sections- propulsion, life support, and fleet maintanence/storage. I've already explained the first two, but the third might be tricky. This is where all the fighters must be stored, repaired, fueled, loaded, and launched. Probably would work best in an assembly line fashion. You would have these tubes running along the sides of the carrier to accommodate the fighters, or holes. One side for entry, the other for release. Shouldn't be too difficult to move them along at zero gravity. You could do the whole thing with auto manufacturing robots.

You missed 4. Defence. Nukes are cheap I don't care how good your fighters are if I throw enough nukes/antimatter weapons at your carrier one of them is going to get through then I don't care what you build it from your carrier is toast.
 
Good point. Flechettes, patriot missiles, even lasers can't get every single one. It needs some kind of field, which nobody knows how to create. The blast has to be diverted or ejected. If the armor is penetrated, the ship could fire off damaged sections and seal the hull.
 
c4ts said:
Good point. Flechettes, patriot missiles, even lasers can't get every single one. It needs some kind of field, which nobody knows how to create. The blast has to be diverted or ejected. If the armor is penetrated, the ship could fire off damaged sections and seal the hull.

What hull? The odds are that you are going to have a big nuclear industy so large numbers of 10 megaton weapons would not be a problem.
 
geni said:
What hull? The odds are that you are going to have a big nuclear industy so large numbers of 10 megaton weapons would not be a problem.

How many nukes are we talking about here? Too many fired close together are going to annihilate each other if one is prematurely detonated by a flechette or something.
 
c4ts said:
How many nukes are we talking about here? Too many fired close together are going to annihilate each other if one is prematurely detonated by a flechette or something.

No becuase at most you are going to get a fuel expolostion. Nukes only detonate if they atchive critial mass in exactly the right way. A 10mt is going to be a H-Bomb anyay so it is even less likely to go off with maxium force.
 
Here's a question: Assume we have two warring factions in some kind of battle in space, but near Earth, say within two or three lunar orbital distances from Earth. Now say they use accelerated projectiles as weapons, merrily shooting at each other until enough of something is destroyed for one side to declare victory.

Now what? How much of those missed projectiles and exploded shrapnel are going to continue to move at high velocity through some kind of parabolic path, and who's going to track them? We can say with some reasonable certainty that some percentage of ammo will be fired perpedicular to the the Earth, and that in the frictionless environment of space, it will wind up orbiting and coming back to it's point of origin with nearly the same velocity with which it was fired! Better not hang around that battlefield for too long, or you'll be shooting yourself!

If using Lasers, or some other form of energy weapon, you'd have to be consious about what's on the other side of the target, and how well the beam dispurses over that distance. Any enemy could win against a cautious foe if it just places itself between the enemy and the Earth, since missed shots could potentially damage people on the ground, or at very least, an orbiting sattelite.

Thankfully, on Earth, we have air friction and weapons that can't achieve escape velocity (except those missile shooting lasers at Los Alamos), so all our killing devices return to the ground from whence they came.
 
geni said:

If we reomve the light speed limit intersystem warfare becomes posible however ...

However i'm musing what would keep my enemy from firing some superlight speed rocks at my home world. If i have no detection methods except EM waves, then they'll hit before i see them.
And they'll do damage.

As a side question does anyone know, what is the supposed reason is in Star Trek, that following weapon is not used:
-warp drive
-impulse drive
-cloaking device
-10 tons of anti matter
-a primitive navigation computer(proabaly of the quality we have today)
All that can be afaik about star trek "tech" be put together, with the warp drive working nicely, 10 tons of antimatter are nothing, thinking about how much they teleport around and replicate their food and one of those things impacting the atmosphere of a planet, will devastate the planet(equaling a hbomb with roughly 1000 tons of reacting material).
Practically now safe way to detect the thing, no signature whatsoever, except engine activity and even that can be switched of when reaching the target system and the electronic is nearly impossible to disturb, especially there is no complicated ingnition mechanism needed.
Size is pretty small.

(I'm thinking about the reasons for the evil guys, not to use them, of course good federation would never do that.)

Carn
 
All these problems with nukes and superfast rocks are solved by introducing shields. I'm anticipating that homeopathic principles will be accepted science in the future, so some extremely large sheets of tissue paper will do the trick.

Ships can dock with my carrier by deploying some scissors (to get in) and sellotape (to reseal the shields after they pass through).

To ensure continuing security, scissors and sellotape will only be available to my military.
 
Also, let's remember that the primary use of warships was not battle, but "peace keeping" duties, showing the flag and presenting a threat.

Orbiting rocks would meet these needs fairly well.
 
I was watching some of the DVDs of Babylon 5 the other night, with the commentary turned on. The producer said that they'd had a call from NASA saying that they (NASA) had been brainstorming what a manoeuverable space "fighter-type" vehicle would look like, and come to the conclusion that the B5 Starfuries were about right. They were asking for permission to use their models in some simulations.

They're quite cute constructs, though I think they owe a fair bit to the original Star Wars X-wing. But it's the way the thrusters on the ends of the X fire that makes them so manoeuverable. I'm sure there's something on the net about them, though I don't have time to look right now.

Rolfe.
 
Carn said:
However i'm musing what would keep my enemy from firing some superlight speed rocks at my home world. If i have no detection methods except EM waves, then they'll hit before i see them.
And they'll do damage.

Even at speeds below light (but a signifigant percentage of it, say 50% c) you run into this problem. You can see a missile/rock/ship/whatever coming, but by the time you detect it it's already moved (for example, if it moves at .5c then by the time you detect it it's covered about have the distance between you and the location you detected it...relativistic effects would come into play, but roughly half). Any sort of manuverability makes such an incoming projectile (referred to as an R-bomb, for relativistic bomb) almost unstoppable. In addition, an object the size of, say, the space shuttle can do significant damage over a wide area....nukes would look like firecrackers in comparison.

R-bombs are, essentially, a planet-sterilization weapon. Against ships they generally wouldn't have time to accelerate to a useable speed (or materials to withstand such a rapid acceleration) and the speed also makes them hard to aim (they can maneuver, but not very quickly).

As to fighters in space, most people seem to discuss how useless they would be for attacking. I think this misses the point. Even today, planes are primarily defensive systems for a fleet or used to attack ground targets. Likewise, I think and space-borne fighter would either be designed as a trans-atmospheric craft (for doing bombing runs and raids on planets) or as defensive screens.

For planetary attacks, you need multiple weapon systems to hit multiple targets. Fighters have the advantage of being able to react and adapt to a changing situation, and make decisions at the point of attack (because of a human pilot). While automated missiles and bombs would be cheaper, they would have more difficulty evading defensive systems and reacting to targets of oppurtunity.

For defensive screens, the missile swarm type attacks would probably be the major reason for fighters. A screen of fighters deployed with point defense weaponry (lasers, guass machine guns, flechette weapons, etc) can provide a mobile, reactive "shield" against incoming missiles, protecting the fleet itself.

As to useable weapon systems, a lighter, more compact energy source is really the issue (which I think someone else mentioned earlier). Nuclear is a possibility, but traditional reactor designs used on Earth would need to be modified to function properly, and the instananeous power needed by the weapon systems would probably have to be done by capacitors (leading to a laser with a recharge time). RTGs (used on long-term spacecraft and probes) don't provide enough power density. If the fusion reactor is ever developed, that would probably be one of the better choices. Especially since it could be worked into the same system that provides propulsion. Antimatter is another possibility, but this makes the fighters little highly-explosive bombs and highly vulnerable to any sort of power loss (no power means no magnetic bottle means antimatter says hi).

Just a few thoughts on my end :)
 
Rolfe- I liked the craft on Babylon as well, with the X- configuration giving them thrust-vectoring. As I recall, Harlan Ellison was a consultant on the show, and may have had an idea or two.
The only problem would be fuel, you'd still need a rather large amount of fuel to provide a decent amount of flight time.

A fascinating take on very advanced space warfare was in Greg Bear's Forge of God and Anvil of Stars.

Planet-killing Von Nuemann machines, turning matter into anti-matter at a distance, alterations of cosmic "bookkeeping"....hehe, heavy stuff.
 

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