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So what really happened 2000 years ago?

Go to the Conspiracy Theory sub-forum and read what is there.

Everything in that sub- forum was written by educated, 21st century people, all computer literate, most of whom actually saw, on tv, the events of September 11th 2001.

Now ask yourself what is the likelihood that anything written in 1st century Judea, an area actually under foreign military occupation at the time, is in any sense an accurate report of what happened.
 
She was clearly not His wife, there is plenty of manuscript evidence in
the science of textual criticism to demonstrate that He was never married,
nor did He engage Himself in any sexual activity of any kind. ........

How does anyone know? Was someone with him 100% of his life meticulously watching? Nice job if you like that kind of thing.
 

You are completely wrong. If you study the Book of Job, you will see that God has a history of trying your faith in the TRUE RELIGION of Abraham as is documented in the "Old" Testament. The whole Jesus Christ story is intended to test your belief in this TRUTH. You have failed this test. Prepare for your wife, children and slaves all to be killed as your punishment. :rolleyes:
:pigsfly:pigsfly:pigsfly:pigsfly:pigsfly:pigsfly
 
Nothing unusual at all happened 2000 years ago is my bet.

40 to 150 years later, some guys must have smoked/ate,snorted/licked something and made up a bunch of stories. 379 years later, a bunch of politicians tried to make a useful tool for controlling people, and that's what we're stuck with....
 
>1. Who is it that should logically rule Israel?

Someone legitimately of the line of the kings of Israel and not an obscure son of an artisan born in a back corner of the country and in no way other than convuluted and conflicting geneologies related to the line of David?

>2. Often the most ironic things in life in up being true.

Indeed, such as any true historic Yeshua ben Yusuf bearing so little resemblance to the Jesus of the Bible that they probably wouldn't even recognize each other if they met on the street ...

>3. Some will equate not being a Christian to the ultimate form of gambling.

Pascal was wrong then and his wager is still insufficient evidence or argument for any god or afterlife myth, much less the Christian one.

>4. Besides all of the historical evidence

- shroud of Turin

A latter-day fake, tested and proven, despite the Vatican's refusal to accept the truth.

- the Talmud, writings of Flavias Josephus,

None of which are anything but hearsay, later insertions or redactions, of questionable provenance and generally not accepted as evidence by any serious Biblical scholar.

- AD and BC

Only in the West and among Christians. BCE and CE make more sense even here, and other cultures have their own calendars and nomenclature.

Extra credit: If BC and AD reflect any evidence for Christianity's truth, don't the days of the week and months reflect veracity of Teutonic/Norse myths?

>5. The major difference between true Christianity and all other religions

Which version of Christianity is allegely True? And by what subsnattive and verifiable evidence is this established?

>6. Christians pray for people to be saved

And for people to be cndemned to hell, and in this life to be slain, injured, divested of property and/or rights ...

-Other religions do not do this to the same degree because they believe ...

Are you sure? I know of Buddhists who spend many hours in prayer for the world.

>7. IF there is a God, then it would be logical to acknowledge Him
in their daily lives, and it would be foolish NOT to acknowledge the Creator.

Critical word in that statement is "IF" and all available evidence points toward that "IF" being extremely unlikely.

>What are you going to do about Jesus?

Irrelevant. More trenchant is "What are you doing to make THIS world a better place for humanity?"
 
Go to the Conspiracy Theory sub-forum and read what is there.

Everything in that sub- forum was written by educated, 21st century people, all computer literate, most of whom actually saw, on tv, the events of September 11th 2001.

Now ask yourself what is the likelihood that anything written in 1st century Judea, an area actually under foreign military occupation at the time, is in any sense an accurate report of what happened.

Add to that the fact that we know none of the writers of the Gospels were eyewitnesses to the events they purport to describe or were even familiar with the geography of the region.
 
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I suspect that the big deal was about a new social concept being expressed.
At the time, it was evidently quite radical.
The miracle was love.
All the other details are typical, and distracting.

Someone convinced the starving peasants to share, instead of horde.
This enabled them to survive, instead of losing their stashed food to rats and theives and tax collectors. Evidently, some rich people were also moved by this, and tossed in their stash.

Its quite a radical concept. Some aboriginal peoples probably understood this dynamic, and lived it, but they didn't have the means to record the story.

All the 'dressings' added to the tale are typical of myths. Its a shame that the underlying radical social concept gets lost in the hooplah.

Dealing out the middle man, as a path to survival, would surely cause some harsh reaction from the middle-men. Forget about all the god-stuff. The radical politic alone would have gotten him killed...and remembered.

In this context, the same would hold true today. Maybe not with crucifixion, but at least a mental hospital.
 
I suspect that the big deal was about a new social concept being expressed.
At the time, it was evidently quite radical.
The miracle was love.
All the other details are typical, and distracting.

Someone convinced the starving peasants to share, instead of horde.
This enabled them to survive, instead of losing their stashed food to rats and theives and tax collectors. Evidently, some rich people were also moved by this, and tossed in their stash.

Its quite a radical concept. Some aboriginal peoples probably understood this dynamic, and lived it, but they didn't have the means to record the story.

All the 'dressings' added to the tale are typical of myths. Its a shame that the underlying radical social concept gets lost in the hooplah.

Dealing out the middle man, as a path to survival, would surely cause some harsh reaction from the middle-men. Forget about all the god-stuff. The radical politic alone would have gotten him killed...and remembered.

In this context, the same would hold true today. Maybe not with crucifixion, but at least a mental hospital.
 
Well, according to the Bible, the three wise men showed up when Jesus was around two years old. :) They tell Herod when the star appeared, and based on that, Herod kills all the kids two years old and under. That's according to Matthew and assuming, of course, that the star appeared when Jesus was born.
Aside from all the other problems with the Star in the East story (no astronomical body acts like the "star" described in the story, moving then stopping above Herod's palace, then moving again and stopping over Jesus' house and the historical impossibility of any Herod at that time), there's an even more flagrant error: the wise men came from the East but they followed a star in the east. That would have led them further east not to the west.

So the fiction writer who put that bit of the story together missed a pretty glaring error that he should have though about.

Apologists have argued that the language should be translated to mean "a star in its [the sun's] rising" to mean they spotted the star in the early morning. The language simply doesn't support that translation.
 
I suspect that the big deal was about a new social concept being expressed.
At the time, it was evidently quite radical.
The miracle was love.
All the other details are typical, and distracting.

Nope. That wasn't a new concept 2000 years ago. Certainly nothing radical there.

The best teachings of Jesus were not original. The Golden Rule definitely pre-dated that time period. I think most major written traditions had one form or another of the Golden Rule--and that includes extant Jewish scriptures (including the Old Testament).

"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15
 
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I'm an atheist...

.....

But what about these miracles like turning water into wine...

The story of Christianity isn't quite what you're making it out to be. The primary commandment in the New Testament is "Love thy neighbour...", the primary theme is redemption, and the primary impetus for the transformation of one of many competing cults into a strong contender as the Roman Empire's "official religion" was the message of personal salvation.

Each of these things--the "Golden Rule", redemption, and personal salvation--together made Christianity competitive in its formative years. The requirement for the deification of the "Saviour" is not only religious (qv the Judaic concept of the "Messiah") but also secular as in the Pharaohic/Roman Imperial concept of the deification of the Emperor.

It's been some time since I've read a good history about the cults (Cybele, Isis, others) but you will find that Christianity was hardly unique. As JoeTheJuggler indicates, these elements were not original but they didn't have to be. Christianity became popular not because its stories were particularly true but because they were particularly relevant.

Taking the Bible literally is probably not the best approach to understanding the popularity of Christianity.
 
There's too much evidence of half torn square pegs sticking out of round holes for me to buy that Jesus was not a historical person. His name is a common one, but doesn't fit prophecy, though it's explained away. Where he was from didn't fit prophecy, though that was explained away.

In addition, the teachings of Jesus seem to follow an eerily familiar psychological pattern. Kingdom of heaven is at hand = doomsday scenario. Give this guy some charisma and followers, and you have a doomsday cult. Crucify him, and you have cognitive dissonance, which leads to recreation of the myth. The basic overall form, even the timing of the writings, seems highly consistent with what I would expect would happen as a result of reality catching up with a small cult, and the cult trying to step ahead of it.

For these two reasons, I think there was indeed a historical Jesus.

But in interpreting the events, stay well aware of the fourth wall. Keep in mind that when reading the bible, you're not reading accounts of history, you're reading the accounts that certain people are giving of history. When you read of Jesus's life, it's not a god's eye you're reading from, but a human's. That person, for example, was either there, or had to have been told a story, or is making a story up from scratch, or is trying to infer what the story is. So even if the author of a work is a literal follower of Jesus (e.g., disciple or, for lack of better terms, groupie), anything having the author be away or asleep or not having yet started follow Jesus is obviously not a he-was-there scenario.

I'd be most apt to believe that particular public events (sermon on the mount, etc) would be accurate. Less aptly, specific teachings (at best, you're getting a filter through decades of memory of a devoted follower). I wouldn't even try to seek explanation of most supernatural events--though I wouldn't discount Jesus could possibly have been a conjurer, even if he were, you're still going to have a tough time picking it out from the myth. Stories of Jesus's birth are obvious peg pounding.
 
She was clearly not His wife, there is plenty of manuscript evidence in the science of textual criticism to demonstrate that He was never married, nor did He engage Himself in any sexual activity of any kind.

[Reminder to self: need to look into that Gospel of Mary Magdalene that the church decided was irrelevant at some point. Sounds interesting.

Within the closed set of assumptions of Christianity, this would have been beneath Him to engage in a earthly practice that was temporary and meant for procreation. (once again, this is within the closed set of assumptions of a particular belief structure which has not been substantiated in an open system without assumptions).
Oh, why? Because it was impossible that a good catholic boy would do something so basically yucky? Or because Paul hated the idea of sex altogether? Or because he obviously knew he was god and didn't need the come-down? Or because he was an apocalyptic preacher who knew that the end was coming, possibly as late as next week?

The reason she did not recognize Him was because He was in a glorified
body (an eternal body that many Christians believe does not have blood
but is transcendent and can pass through walls and various matter and
is eternal), a body that they some day believe that they will be raised
in also, to fellowship and worship Jesus in heaven for the rest of eternity.
Say again? Doesn't have blood - is that a requirement for transcendency? Does that mean ghostly? "a body that they some day believe that they will be raised in also"? Who's on first here?

Within the closed set of assumptions of Christianity, there are several
reasons why Christians believe in Jesus, and believe that He is clearly
the only time God became a man. 1. Who is it that should logically
rule Israel? Who should be King over Israel except God Himself. This
is why Messianic Jews believe Messiah will be not only King, but God
Incarnate in human flesh.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, a king. That is what they obviously all were waiting for, and what they tried o accelerate, until he Romans put the quietus on that in 79 CE. Then it was reinterpretation and catch-up time for the Christians, if not for he stiff-necked Jews.[/quote]

2. Often the most ironic things in life in up
being true. For instance, everything in life teaches us that there are
consequences for our actions. Why should there not be consequences
for our actions in the next life? Accountability, to the Owner of the
Universe? The greatest paradox is to have the unthinkable. That there
are billions who will have to be separated from God because of logical
imperfection which was never logically taken care of cosmically, and
that there will only be millions who actually receive forgiveness and
remain for the rest of eternity in awe that they did not receive the
separation and punishment of the billions.
And then again, maybe the irony is better after a couple of thousand years. Perhaps it was all a put-on that just happened to be at the right place at the right time. What could be more ironic than that? Perhaps the Ownership is vacant? "That there are billions who will have to be separated from God because of logical imperfection"? But he can't do that, can he? Make a logical imperfection? Oh, wait - it's all their fault, isn't it, having such bad bloodlines and all.

3. Some will equate not
being a Christian to the ultimate form of gambling. IOW, if you study
all of the religions of the world and find the one with the absolute
worst consequences for not accepting it, you will find that born-again
Christianity is even worse than fundamental Islam. The claim is, however,
that not only do you have the worst consequences, but you also have
the greatest demonstration of LOVE from God to humankind in the
assertion that God indeed became a Man and died in the place of His
children (us.) {If you say this is based on fear like many cults try
to use to control people: argumentum ad consequentiam is easily
shown to be a fallacy for rejecting}
What a miserable excuse for a reason to do anything. You are using an argument to consequences to sell us Christianity (positive and negative, forsooth), then you cite it as a fallacy. Some irony there.

4. Besides all of the historical
evidence (shroud of Turin, the Talmud, writings of Flavias Josephus,
etc. etc. etc.) you also have thousands of NT texts to choose from
that validate each other. In addition, you have all of time in calendar
years based on AD and BC which you can 'induce' fullness of time (but
this really has to do with the Roman Empire and the states of actualities
which existed for the gospel of Christ to be spread throughout the world).
Not even the Catholic church (outside he bishopric of Turin) stands behind the shroud; only some nut cases in Colorado Springs. The Talmud is definitely not history, except in outline. All those texts that support each other, none of which - zero, as far as scholars can find, were written before 30 years following Jesus' death) including the apocryphal and other early gospels, the writings of he church fathers, including the heretics - how about the ones that conflict? Is cherry picking allowed in your church?

5. The major difference between true Christianity and all other religions
is that with Christianity, you can not save yourself, you can NOT work
for it, you are helpless as a child, instead "God" had to become a Man
and die in your place. In all other religions of the world, they have
some sort of works related soteriological system (and this would include
the non-Christian cults like JW's or WatchTower).
Hmmmm... sounds a lot like down-home Calvinism, or Zwingli, to me. Martin Luther made a statement I read yesterday about someone performing mass murder and blasphemy, but if he really believed, real hard, he could be saved. Not ask forgiveness, mind you - just believe.

You do realize, I suppose, that both as a former RC and more lately as an atheist, you look like a cult to me, don't you? :) ]

6. Christians pray
for people to be saved and regularly get down on their hands and knees
and beg God to work miraculously in someone's life to change them. Other
religions do not do this to the same degree because they believe people
must perform "works."
Oh? St. Paul would have been surprised that perhaps his most strident teaching should be discarded. I never understood how Protestantism stood against him on that.

Finally, point
number 7. IF there is a God, then it would be logical to acknowledge Him
in their daily lives, and it would be foolish NOT to acknowledge the Creator.
There is a Father/Child relationship that is fulfilled in creation that is brought
to fruition at the point of salvation (out of this temporary world and slavery
to it, like the Hebrews were delivered out of Egypt). Often Christians will
claim that this temporary world (certainly the sun will burn out) is like a
testing ground with One Question.
Or perhaps a creator/creature relationship, or a master/slave one? Or, perhaps, something more capitalist, like boss/janitor?

The question that is often asked over and over again: WAYGTDAJ?For the rest of everyone's lives the question will exist whether they
themselves ask the question, or whether someone else asks them the
question:

Translation: What are you going to do about Jesus?

This is based on a biblical premise that Christ said that people are
either for Him or against Him, and IF they do not believe that He is
uniquely God and that He alone died for their trangressions, THEN
they will die in their sins.
I guess, if you put it that way, I'll have to pass. Sorry. I don't suppose you'll just let me be, now, will you?
 
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Taking the Bible literally is probably not the best approach to understanding the popularity of Christianity.

Repeated for emphasis.

@ID: I'll accept Ehrman's scholarship over yours. In your defense, he devoted years of effort to it.

DR
 
Repeated for emphasis.

@ID: I'll accept Ehrman's scholarship over yours. In your defense, he devoted years of effort to it.


. . .which is no excuse for being wrong in spite of the fact that there is no evidence of a historical Jesus.
 
. . .which is no excuse for being wrong in spite of the fact that there is no evidence of a historical Jesus.
There are two levels of criteria worth mentioning. One is, given someone who is reasonable who does not believe Jesus existed (ahem... you perhaps?), can we prove Jesus existed?

This one is boring. It's about such things as the arts of oration, and convincing skeptics.

Then there's another criteria which is much more interesting--the objective fact. Was there, in fact, actually someone walking on the face of the earth whose existence can in a very meaningful and plausible way be given credit for the Jesus mythos?

Given the second criteria, we have the writings of followers--namely, the existence and content of said writings. We also have a timeline. That, my friend, is evidence, and it's evidence of a historical Jesus. It may not be conclusive, but it's a lot more than nothing.

This doesn't establish beyond reasonable doubt (first criteria) that there was one, but there's a tremendous difference between this situation and your exaggerated "no evidence" scenario.

What you reasonably have for the second criteria is two theories--mythical and historical. To judge the relative merits, we have an overwhelming plethora of historical documentation of distinctly similar events to draw upon.
 
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There are two levels of criteria worth mentioning. One is, given someone who is reasonable who does not believe Jesus existed (ahem... you perhaps?), can we prove Jesus existed?

This one is boring. It's about such things as the arts of oration, and convincing skeptics.

Then there's another criteria which is much more interesting--the objective fact. Was there, in fact, actually someone walking on the face of the earth whose existence can in a very meaningful and plausible way be given credit for the Jesus mythos?

Given the second criteria, we have the writings of followers--namely, the existence and content of said writings. We also have a timeline. That, my friend, is evidence, and it's evidence of a historical Jesus. It may not be conclusive, but it's a lot more than nothing.

This doesn't establish beyond reasonable doubt (first criteria) that there was one, but there's a tremendous difference between this situation and your exaggerated "no evidence" scenario.

What you reasonably have for the second criteria is two theories--mythical and historical. To judge the relative merits, we have an overwhelming plethora of historical documentation of distinctly similar events to draw upon.


*Yawn* And what evidence is there? Mutually contradictory accounts penned decades afterwards by people who weren't there that record events which did not happen. Herod did not slay a all the children of any town, there was no census, he wasn't king at the time, and there is no record of any Jesus being tired by the Roman governor or crucified. What's left besides that is a humdrum list of miraculous claims which were all in vouge for the era. Everything from stretching food, converting water into wine, casting out demons, healing the sick, and raising the dead are all magical claims countless charlatans before and since have made.

If we ignore all that and ask, "Did Jesus, who was also god, die because God wanted him to in order to forgive us for the sins of distant ancestors who did something wrong without knowing the different between good and evil?" The answer is still "no," because the basis for that claim is itself pure fantasy.
 

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