Jerrymander
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Maybe the people who are looking for bigfoot should learn from the people who discovered the saola.
Seeing Cryptids: The Problems
- Thread starter jerrywayne
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Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
Monstrous, mutated crypto-crow, no less!
The Shrike
Philosopher
No, to them there's nothing to learn. With saola, okapi, gorillas, etc., people went to the places where those creatures live and easily obtained specimens of those creatures.
With bigfoot, we've ALL been living where they live for, presumably, thousands of years, but they're just too smart and ninja-y to let us find any of their remains or take a decent photo. This is why bigfootery has changed so much since the PGF. It used to be that only those brave and adventurous enough to travel to the most remote places on the planet had any chance of encountering bigfoot. Now it's all about your attitude as a "researcher." If you approach the bigfoots with humility, good intentions, nary a hint of skepticism, and most important - with no camera - then the bigfoots will choose to reveal themselves to you.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
You betcha. How I would love to see a real picture of Champ. It's been a while since I could sail on Lake Champlain, but you can bet that when I did I made sure I had a really good camera with a telephoto lens, and that I knew how to use the thing. One even half-good shot of Champ would make my day and my fortune. Alas, all I ever got was nice snapshots of the lovely scenery and the lovely wife and the like. It sure is a pity (irony likely here) that all those professional and amateur photographers, bird watchers and the like, who spend hours aiming good equipment at the lake and taking tack-sharp pictures, never see the same critters that bozos who forget how to hold a point and shoot or a phone seem to see all the time.
jerrywayne
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BIGFOOT in the road.
The Ogopogo example above pretty much shows how people may mistake the mundane. Also, had the family not filmed the creature and just reported it, then their "encounter" would probably have made it into a Jerome Clark or Loren Coleman book on the mysterious as a well documented lake monster sighting.
The Ri article gave a hint as to the reliability of indigenous accounts relating to alleged unknown animals. Most cryptozoologists give much credence to local population reports, when in fact different cultures do not necessarily adhere to pure objectivity.
The Ri story also gives an inkling that cryptozoology is less zoological than it is a modern re-imagining of the bestiary of folklore.
Some sighting reports claim incredible cryptid attributes that ought to rule out mundane explanations. For instance, the recent Bigfoot sighting by the TBRC in Oklahoma, in which Wood Apes moved up hill at incredible speeds.
The following is a Bigfoot hoax uncovered by John Green and reported in an old Bigfoot Bulletin. (August 31, 1970.) It shows how perception can get it seriously wrong when dealing with maybe monsters.
http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/albums/album_image/6905109/5477215.htm
The Ogopogo example above pretty much shows how people may mistake the mundane. Also, had the family not filmed the creature and just reported it, then their "encounter" would probably have made it into a Jerome Clark or Loren Coleman book on the mysterious as a well documented lake monster sighting.
The Ri article gave a hint as to the reliability of indigenous accounts relating to alleged unknown animals. Most cryptozoologists give much credence to local population reports, when in fact different cultures do not necessarily adhere to pure objectivity.
The Ri story also gives an inkling that cryptozoology is less zoological than it is a modern re-imagining of the bestiary of folklore.
Some sighting reports claim incredible cryptid attributes that ought to rule out mundane explanations. For instance, the recent Bigfoot sighting by the TBRC in Oklahoma, in which Wood Apes moved up hill at incredible speeds.
The following is a Bigfoot hoax uncovered by John Green and reported in an old Bigfoot Bulletin. (August 31, 1970.) It shows how perception can get it seriously wrong when dealing with maybe monsters.
http://www.nabigfootsearch.com/albums/album_image/6905109/5477215.htm
foxholeatheist
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I thought I remember reading about a Champ story where a woman actually opened fire on what she thought was the monster... And somehow a huge sturgeon turned up dead in the lake a while later from either A. Gun shots or B. Lake Monster bites and lake monster have bullets for teeth wow cool.
I have no problem believing that certain eyewitnesses are completely honest that they believe they saw a monster. But as other have pointed out, human memory is not a perfect record of events and in any case it's carcass or STFU.
Even the photos and videos are subject to human interpretation. Bobo sees some reflections in the woods and of all the things it may be the first thing that comes to his mind is Bigfoot.
I have no problem believing that certain eyewitnesses are completely honest that they believe they saw a monster. But as other have pointed out, human memory is not a perfect record of events and in any case it's carcass or STFU.
Even the photos and videos are subject to human interpretation. Bobo sees some reflections in the woods and of all the things it may be the first thing that comes to his mind is Bigfoot.
The Shrike
Philosopher
I shared the YouTube video above with my teenage daughter last night. As soon as Robert Stack said "the creature was seen moving back and forth between log piles" (paraphrased) she did a facepalm and figured out it was a beaver they had filmed.
jerrywayne
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Note how Stack's script tried to help out the lake monster interpretation by reinforcing the erroneous idea that the monster was identical to a beaver except it held its head a little higher in the water when it performed the beaver tail slap, so it must be a giant snake/lizard, i.e., Ogopogo! Shows how programs are often driven only by ratings and not so much by edification.
jerrywayne
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The Fouke Monster and the question of vetting.
In October I went to Fouke, Arkansas to join a tour of "monster" related locations guided by Lyle Blackburn. Blackburn is the author of a well written and entertaining book favoring the existence of the local alleged Bigfoot: The Beast of Boggy Creek - The True Story of the Fouke Monster.
Here is a picture of the group, with Blackburn in the middle, and Loren Coleman, Craig Woolheater, Jerry Halstead (of TBRC), among others. I'm in the picture too.
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/tagyourself/
While we were waiting for the tour to begin and as we meandered around the Monster Mart, Blackburn was informed by a local that there had been a sighting just a week before on a stretch of road that had had previous sightings. During the tour, Blackburn mentioned the new sighting. He even took us to the location. At some point in the tour, he mentioned that he would not be interviewing or questioning the person who had told other locals about the sighting. The person wanted privacy.
Imagine my surprise when I later found this sighting listed by Blackburn on his website.
http://www.foukemonster.net/sightings.htm
This, of course, is a questionable use of presenting a second hand report as if it had been seriously vetted. How often does this kind of problem make it into the literature or the web page? (In his book, Blackburn does interview witnesses personally.)
In October I went to Fouke, Arkansas to join a tour of "monster" related locations guided by Lyle Blackburn. Blackburn is the author of a well written and entertaining book favoring the existence of the local alleged Bigfoot: The Beast of Boggy Creek - The True Story of the Fouke Monster.
Here is a picture of the group, with Blackburn in the middle, and Loren Coleman, Craig Woolheater, Jerry Halstead (of TBRC), among others. I'm in the picture too.
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/tagyourself/
While we were waiting for the tour to begin and as we meandered around the Monster Mart, Blackburn was informed by a local that there had been a sighting just a week before on a stretch of road that had had previous sightings. During the tour, Blackburn mentioned the new sighting. He even took us to the location. At some point in the tour, he mentioned that he would not be interviewing or questioning the person who had told other locals about the sighting. The person wanted privacy.
Imagine my surprise when I later found this sighting listed by Blackburn on his website.
http://www.foukemonster.net/sightings.htm
This, of course, is a questionable use of presenting a second hand report as if it had been seriously vetted. How often does this kind of problem make it into the literature or the web page? (In his book, Blackburn does interview witnesses personally.)
jerrywayne
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Red Panda sightings
Here is a brief recounting of the famous escaped Red Panda case. Also, its relevance to seeing cryptids --- brain functions seeking patterns.
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/your-brain-is-not-your-friend.html
Here is a brief recounting of the famous escaped Red Panda case. Also, its relevance to seeing cryptids --- brain functions seeking patterns.
http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/your-brain-is-not-your-friend.html
jerrywayne
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CHAMP: Super Otter or Dog?
In May, 2009, Eric Olsen posted on YouTube what appears to be an animal swimming on the surface of Lake Champlain (New York, Vermont, Quebec). The lake is one of many that has a "lake monster" tradition; in this case, the monster is called Champ. While Olsen made no claim as to what he captured on his cell phone camera, others have jumped to the conclusion that he videoed the legendary Champ.
My first impression, like those of others, was that the camera picked up a deer swimming on the lake. Others thought young moose. I changed my mind later when I realised that the object in the video does not have the tell-tale large ears that would be obvious with deer.
Loren Coleman posted several articles at Cryptomundo concerning Olsen's video. Here is one: http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/olsenvid9/
At Cryptomundo, Coleman seemed to be flirting with the idea the image represented a "super otter." As far as I know, the super otter exists nowhere other than on the written page of Bernard Heuvelmans, one of the early leading lights of cryptozoology. The super otter was an attempt by Heuvelmans to explain certain sea serpent sightings, a maybe creature made to order.
Coleman eventually gave more credence to the super otter explanation in the pages of a paranormal magazine TAPS. There is some irony in this explanation by Coleman because he likes to ridicule a certain skeptic who uses known otter species as explanations for some lake monster sightings. (Even more ironic, Coleman now believes the Surgeon's Photo of the Loch Ness monster is indeed of an otter. He rejects the toy submarine hoax confession.)
Coleman does nothing more than compare some stills from the cell phone video that compares well in the imagination with a hypothetical drawing of a super otter. He ignores the fact that the animal on the video certainly doesn't move like an otter, graceful and confident. In fact, the animal looks like a terrestrial animal temporarily finding itself in water.
The Mad Skeptic, like Coleman, made some on site observations. Unlike Coleman, he came up with a more mundane explanation, and one that takes into account the apparent terrestrial origin of the animal in question.
Sorry, you will have to search MS website for the article. He doesn't have exportable single pages (unfortunately).
http://www.themadskeptic.com/#!/2011/07/olsen-champ-video-investigation.html
In May, 2009, Eric Olsen posted on YouTube what appears to be an animal swimming on the surface of Lake Champlain (New York, Vermont, Quebec). The lake is one of many that has a "lake monster" tradition; in this case, the monster is called Champ. While Olsen made no claim as to what he captured on his cell phone camera, others have jumped to the conclusion that he videoed the legendary Champ.
My first impression, like those of others, was that the camera picked up a deer swimming on the lake. Others thought young moose. I changed my mind later when I realised that the object in the video does not have the tell-tale large ears that would be obvious with deer.
Loren Coleman posted several articles at Cryptomundo concerning Olsen's video. Here is one: http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/olsenvid9/
At Cryptomundo, Coleman seemed to be flirting with the idea the image represented a "super otter." As far as I know, the super otter exists nowhere other than on the written page of Bernard Heuvelmans, one of the early leading lights of cryptozoology. The super otter was an attempt by Heuvelmans to explain certain sea serpent sightings, a maybe creature made to order.
Coleman eventually gave more credence to the super otter explanation in the pages of a paranormal magazine TAPS. There is some irony in this explanation by Coleman because he likes to ridicule a certain skeptic who uses known otter species as explanations for some lake monster sightings. (Even more ironic, Coleman now believes the Surgeon's Photo of the Loch Ness monster is indeed of an otter. He rejects the toy submarine hoax confession.)
Coleman does nothing more than compare some stills from the cell phone video that compares well in the imagination with a hypothetical drawing of a super otter. He ignores the fact that the animal on the video certainly doesn't move like an otter, graceful and confident. In fact, the animal looks like a terrestrial animal temporarily finding itself in water.
The Mad Skeptic, like Coleman, made some on site observations. Unlike Coleman, he came up with a more mundane explanation, and one that takes into account the apparent terrestrial origin of the animal in question.
Sorry, you will have to search MS website for the article. He doesn't have exportable single pages (unfortunately).
http://www.themadskeptic.com/#!/2011/07/olsen-champ-video-investigation.html
Last edited:
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
INteresting bit of de-champing there. Even if one clings to the hope that there's a monster out in the lake, I doubt you'll find it in a two foot deep swimming beach.
I've been not very diligently following Champ sightings for years, living as I do near the lake, and secretly, idly hoping that a) there really is one, and b) I'll be the first to get a good picture.
Most Champ champions like to think that wave sizes will tell you something, but this is a crazy lake, where you can go in a few minutes from a dead calm to three foot breakers, back to dead calm, then get knocked down as you wonder where those one inch whitecaps are coming from. Champlain doesn't need a monster, it is one.
I've been not very diligently following Champ sightings for years, living as I do near the lake, and secretly, idly hoping that a) there really is one, and b) I'll be the first to get a good picture.
Most Champ champions like to think that wave sizes will tell you something, but this is a crazy lake, where you can go in a few minutes from a dead calm to three foot breakers, back to dead calm, then get knocked down as you wonder where those one inch whitecaps are coming from. Champlain doesn't need a monster, it is one.
Sonny2
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That sighting is classic stuff. Some kid stands by the road with a toque over his head and runs when cars come by and everyone says it was a bipedal thing that ran faster than any human could run. LOL
foxholeatheist
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Otters do have a serpent like swim... That is if you have no idea how a reptile is physiologically supposed to swim.
Otters swim in an up and down motion. It looks like the traditional western water monster. Reptiles move from side to side. I don't think any marine mammal swims from side to side and I don't think any reptile swims up and down. Maybe the extinct massive fish-like nightmare marine reptiles swam side to side?
One of my earliest memories is my dad taking me to the Ohio river for the white bass run. The river was full of boats for the bass, there were tons. Not just people showed up to take advantage of the numbers but otters did too. I was scared to death of them thinking they were dragons or something.
A few years ago the wife and I went floating on a beautiful Missouri Ozark river to catch some smallmouth. As we came around a corner we saw a whole group of otters, maybe about 5-6. They were the cutest little guys and they seemed pretty curious. They were on the bank and sliding down the cut and watching us approach over a log. Then, as a group and in a line they went into the river. The way they swam in an up and down fashion in a single file line and equally distant from each other made them appear to be a single animal about 12-15 feet long. The adult led the group which could lead someone to assume there was a distinctive 'head'. Combine that with an area with a reported monster and someone unfamiliar with the fauna of an area and you got yourself a monster sighting.
In the lower right is the last otter we saw. Unfortunately we didn't get a picture of them swimming in a line, we were too occupied with how gosh derned cute they were and were a little late getting the camera out of the bag. They were also a fair distance from us.
As a bowhunter I know it is tough to eyeball distance with any accuracy. Especially over water and especially if the object is at an angle or moving.
Otters swim in an up and down motion. It looks like the traditional western water monster. Reptiles move from side to side. I don't think any marine mammal swims from side to side and I don't think any reptile swims up and down. Maybe the extinct massive fish-like nightmare marine reptiles swam side to side?
One of my earliest memories is my dad taking me to the Ohio river for the white bass run. The river was full of boats for the bass, there were tons. Not just people showed up to take advantage of the numbers but otters did too. I was scared to death of them thinking they were dragons or something.
A few years ago the wife and I went floating on a beautiful Missouri Ozark river to catch some smallmouth. As we came around a corner we saw a whole group of otters, maybe about 5-6. They were the cutest little guys and they seemed pretty curious. They were on the bank and sliding down the cut and watching us approach over a log. Then, as a group and in a line they went into the river. The way they swam in an up and down fashion in a single file line and equally distant from each other made them appear to be a single animal about 12-15 feet long. The adult led the group which could lead someone to assume there was a distinctive 'head'. Combine that with an area with a reported monster and someone unfamiliar with the fauna of an area and you got yourself a monster sighting.
In the lower right is the last otter we saw. Unfortunately we didn't get a picture of them swimming in a line, we were too occupied with how gosh derned cute they were and were a little late getting the camera out of the bag. They were also a fair distance from us.
As a bowhunter I know it is tough to eyeball distance with any accuracy. Especially over water and especially if the object is at an angle or moving.
jerrywayne
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Otters no doubt play a part in "Lake Monster" sightings.
Here is a video of otters in a line, indoors. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaQtJOPQ4MA
Here is a photo related to relating otters and Lake Monsters.
http://www.cryptomundo.com/wp-content/uploads/markle1a.jpg
However, I think most "multiple humps" sightings on lakes are probably wave effects.
jerrywayne
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Do you have an example of "absolutely no frame of reference for?"
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
I would suggest that if there is no frame of reference, the sighting is inherently unreliable and inherently unusable. It hardly matters what you've seen. It's an anecdote.
Jodie
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I do, and after a year of digging and researching, I figured out what it was but I had absolutely no idea of what I was looking at when I was actually under it.
I saw something air born, a little higher than the roof tops, slowly moving toward my direction and when it was over my parked car I stepped off the porch to have a look. It was a grayish color with salt and pepper speckles and reddish phosphorescent balls connected with lines of the the same color. It had a soft glow and was transluscent. It had an edge that was fringed? or looked the way the edge of a quarter looks, serrated. It was square with rounded corners. When it moved, at a distance it appeared to flip end over end, up close it undulated and looked like it folded in on itself like a snail or jellyfish moves. I have taken a lot of crap for telling this and I figure I 'll get a lot more for telling it now but what would you have thought it was?