Split Thread Scottish Independence
- Thread starter Rolfe
- Start date
Rolfe
Adult human female
This is where we ended up last time we had this debate - I remember it well. It's a defensible position, I suppose - if you're willing to ignore a strong element of human nature. However, it's a very general point. As I said,it's equally valid as an argument against the breakup of the USSR or Yugoslavia. When applied specifically to Scottish nationalism, it's a bit of a blunt instrument.
In my opinion, it wouldn't work. It denies the essential tribalism inherent in human nature in much the same way communism denies the essential human desire to have one's own possessions. Even if you had an overarching world federal government, we'd be right back here arguing about the makeup of the next layer down. Administrative units are inevitable.
However, that's academic at the moment. We don't have a world government and we're nowhere close. So with respect, using this as the basis of a vehement argument opposing the legitimate aspirations of a small, peaceful country to equal status with other small, peaceful countries which are members of the EU, is a bit on the irrelevant side.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, it's been done I suppose. Look up the Ulster Plantations.
Do you English never learn?
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
We can go through hypotheticals till the cows come home. This is about as realistic as Darat demanding to know whether we'd accept the result of a referendum if only three people turned out to vote. I'm about as interested in discussing what we'll do if aliens steal the ballot boxes.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
That's something you do hear from time to time from the north-east of Scotland and similar places. However, I think it's quite a cynical view. Scotland is a lot more cohesive as a country than Britain, and London is a lot further away from any of it than Edinburgh. There's always been this "central belt against the rest" mentality, but to some extent that has been Labour's "divide and rule" strategy.
Most countries have hinterlands which moan about the metropolis to some extent. If there's a recipe for utopia, nobody's published it yet. However, there's still a strong vein of feeling similar to that articulated by Walter Scott.
I think he had a point.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, Darat now disagrees with this representation of his argument. And I can't be bothered dredging up the old thread. And he did subsequently revise his position to say that after 100 years had passed, the assimilated country should be regarded as no longer having any identity. Originally though, I recall him asserting that the minute a treaty of union was signed or a war of independence was lost, that was that.
Rolfe.
Lothian
should be banned
So it's not about managing one's own resources for one's own benefit, it is just about oil.
Lothian
should be banned
Yes. I don't support Independence.
Where appropriate I support devolution of power to local areas but I don't want to break up the UK.
Lothian
should be banned
I am not confusing anything, I was one of the minority who voted Yes for a North East assembly. I would prefer for a North East assembly to have the same powers as the Scottish parliament. If 'local' was confusing blame the BBC they keep showing me a 'local' weather map which covers the whole region!
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Rolfe
Adult human female
I entirely fail to comprehend how you got there from here.
I said I was about as interested in discussing what might happen if individual counties of Scotland decided to declare independence as I was in discussing what might happen if aliens stole the ballot boxes. Because it's about as likely.
Rolfe.
I think, the more I read this thread, that a number of our posters from south of the Border fail to grasp the concept of national identity within Scotland as a whole and the extent to which - even pre-devolution - it enjoyed many of the features usually associated with statehood such as separate legal and education systems, a largely different media, separate sporting structures, and so on. How many know we have always had our own separate NHS, for example?
Yes, the Scots can talk up the differences to suit circumstances. But the fact remains that there are differences - and we're not talking something comparable to, say, Lancashire and Yorkshire.
Yes, the Scots can talk up the differences to suit circumstances. But the fact remains that there are differences - and we're not talking something comparable to, say, Lancashire and Yorkshire.
Unfortunately, the unwise powers-that-be among my fellow Englishmen will never grant the Scots their independence.
In which case, why not at least let them have their own sub-forum here at JREF?
It'd be like Still Game, written by Jocky Wilson.
In which case, why not at least let them have their own sub-forum here at JREF?
It'd be like Still Game, written by Jocky Wilson.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Having forced myself to sit through an episode of that I have to say that if the Scots find it funny, we should bloody well not only give them independence but also close the border and patrol it with armed guards.
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2003
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I was more thinking Morocco.
So you are suggesting that the responce by the nationalist scotish population to a large influx of english born people would be to start a civil war?
Rolfe
Adult human female
Not necessarily. I was merely pointing out the obvious precedent.
I wouldn't much care for a civil war either, so for everybody's sake, I would suggest not pushing that one.
In fact, this is another hypothetical about as realistic as aliens stealing the ballot boxes. Don't you think discussion of the actual issues might be more constructive?
Rolfe.
I wouldn't much care for a civil war either, so for everybody's sake, I would suggest not pushing that one.
In fact, this is another hypothetical about as realistic as aliens stealing the ballot boxes. Don't you think discussion of the actual issues might be more constructive?
Rolfe.
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2003
- Messages
- 28,209
Are you suggesting nationalism is not the issue?
There are a number of ways of maintaining a national identity.
1)rapid assimilation (US say)
2)Shear weight of numbers (han chinese)
3)Limiting the civil rights of immigrants (UAE)
4)Limiting immigration
5)Highly fexable national identity.
Now Scottish nationalists have the added problem that they have to fight off the British identity. This makes options 1 and 5 impractical. 2 Scotland doesn't really have the population. 3 Isn't really an option for a country either in or close to the the EU which leaves us with 4. To be successful Scottish nationalism have to keep immigration to a fairly low level (remeber the EU thinks the UK as a whole is due to pick up about 10 million immigrants which if evenly disributed would result in 830K more people in scotland with no reason to support scotish nationalism). While this does boil down to scotland for the scottish they are plently of ways to it without needing to resort to that phrasing.
For example in order to preserve scotland's natural beauty clearly any building work needs to be properly planned.
KoihimeNakamura
Creativity Murderer
Rolfe: I'm neutral on whether or not Scotland should get independence (not really something I should comment on, seeing as how I don't live in the UK) I just expect that London will attempt to do something about it.
Lothian
should be banned
You said you support independance which is about the rights of people to control their own resources and destiny. I am simply trying to find out if that it true. The fact is you refuse to accept that Shetlanders may feel that the politicians in their luxurious building in at Holyrood may have little understanding of island life. You will not even entertain the idea that they should be allowed to control their own resources and destiny. This tells me that your support for scottish independence in nothing to do with the intellectual principle of self governance but about money and oil.