Split Thread Scottish Independence

Architect said:
With respect, it's a very naive position. World Government, if it happens, may well be a laudable objective but there's no sign of it happening for the foreseeable future. Moreover you have failed to consider the extent to which World Government may in fact disenfranchise the general population, removing it still further from the decision-making process. If it's even democractic at all....
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I didn't say it was going to be easy did I?
 
funk de fino said:
No you had to tell a lie. Scotland for anyone who want to come and live here. Your equivocation with the BNP just proves how desperate you have become to support your fantasy and minority view.
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If you can't see my point after all this you are avoiding it or you are not very bright.
 
martu said:
What evidence do you base that opinion on? What exactly is different about you?
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One could launch into an essay on cultural differences between different countries - the French, the Germans, our cousins across the Pond. One could look at the different outlook of, say, Scotland and England focussing on political or educational views.

One could talk about the long-standing different traditions in a range of different fields, from law to educational systems.

One could highlight the great poets - Burns in lieu of Wordsworth, McDiarmid in lieu of ...well, whoever the English have.

One could highlight language, at least for some of us, and a whole additional set of cultural traditions found across the Ghealtachd.

But the thing is, there's no point. You've clearly convinced yourself that (a) we're all 100% identical, (b) the SNP are some sort of BNP-type nutter jobs, and (c) World Government is just around the corner.

I have to ask: have you ever actually visited Scotland for any length of time?
 
Just had a read through the SNP manifesto. They are clearly a socially democratic, left-leaning party. They aren't remotely like the BNP in any conceivable way. I don't like nationalism particularly, but not all nationalism is racist or xenophobic.
 
funk de fino said:
No you had to tell a lie. Scotland for anyone who want to come and live here. Your equivocation with the BNP just proves how desperate you have become to support your fantasy and minority view.
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So if the british goverment decided that scotland was underpopulated and decided to adress the problem by encouraging mass migration from Yorkshire and the Humber to the point where about half the population of the country was born outside scotland you wouldn't have a problem with that?
 
No, it's a strawman you're constructing in the hope of eliciting some sort of "Scotland for the Scottish" response.

I would suggest that if the Scottish people decided that such a course of action was warranted, then fair enough: ditto England accepting (say) mass migration from the Ganges delta when it finally disappears under water.
 
Architect said:
No, it's a strawman you're constructing in the hope of eliciting some sort of "Scotland for the Scottish" response.
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Not really both of the more obvious responces have interesting followons.

I would suggest that if the Scottish people decided that such a course of action was warranted, then fair enough:
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The question assumed the current status quo where scotland is part of the united kingdom.



ditto England accepting (say) mass migration from the Ganges delta when it finally disappears under water.
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Not really. At the present time that involves seperate nation states.
 
And what you're talking about is a devolved matter.

Do you have a point, caller?
 
martu said:
You answer my question first - do you think you are different from the English?
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In one fundamental way, everyone is different from everyone else. In another, everyone is the same. Between these extremes, is a continuous spectrum.

Along that spectrum there are many ways of categorising people into groups. You don't seem to feel that "Scots" is a useful description of a political grouping. Other people's mileage differs.

Rolfe.
 
Architect said:
And what you're talking about is a devolved matter.
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Parliment is supreme. It would be free to decide that said matter not be devolved. Why are you so opposed to having the question answered?
 
No, I've got what I was after: you're asking whether I'm opposed to a scenario where the Westminster Parliament forces resettlement of the English population into Scotland against the possible objections of the Scottish Parliament, using reserved powers.

Roll on independence.
 
Rolfe said:
Oh, Darat and I agreed to differ about this some time ago. He believes that a small country taken over by a larger loses its identity and can never reassert it. I don't. This isn't really subject to rational debate, because it's about feelings and beliefs, not reason.

Rolfe.

Posted By: Gaspode
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A little late to this, but has anybody told Darat about The Republic of Ireland,which would seem to negate his "loses it's identity" argument?
 
martu said:
Don't ignore the Men of Kent who will be hurt not to be incuded with the Kentish men.
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:D

martu said:
My 'arbitrary' unit is the globe - by splitting this current island unit into 2 or more is further from that goal.
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So I imagine you were equally opposed to the breakups of Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia, and the USSR.... Out of curiosity, are you in favour of wars of aggression, so long as the result is fewer separate political groupings?

You said you could see no difference between the SNP and the BNP, because the SNP were for "Scotland for the Scots". Well, Labour, the Conservatives and the LibDems are all for "Britain for the British" in exactly the same sense that the SNP is for "Scotland for the Scots".

So do you agree that there's no difference between the BNP and Labour, the Conservatives and the LibDems? You won't be voring for any of them, because they represent something "ugly", right?

Rolfe.
 
Architect said:
You know, the Baltic states had sprung to my mind too.
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But we both missed a big one..Poland. Granted, it was from Three Big Countries (Germany,Russia, and Austria-Hungary) but the principle stands.
 
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Lothian said:
Rolfe et al,

As I understand the independence arguments you feel the people of Scotland feel their interests are different to those in the rest of UK and want the ability to manage their own affairs. Those affairs include all the oil in the waters that are nearer Scotland than the what is left of the Disunited Kingdom.

Imagine you get independence and the people of Shetland feel their interests are different to those in the rest of Scotland and want the ability to manage their own affairs. Those affairs include all the oil in the waters that are nearer Shetland than the what is left of Scotland.

I presume you would support their rights to independence.
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Well, let's see what happens. This is a common bogeyman invoked by unionists, that one county of Scotland might then wish to secede for some reason. Shetland, because of the oil. Orkney, because they once voted against tax-raising powers for the Scottish parliament. Galloway, because they once had the only Tory MP in Scotland (or something like that).

Let's worry about that if it happens.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, let's see what happens. This is a common bogeyman invoked by unionists, that one county of Scotland might then wish to secede for some reason. Shetland, because of the oil. Orkney, because they once voted against tax-raising powers for the Scottish parliament. Galloway, because they once had the only Tory MP in Scotland (or something like that).

Let's worry about that if it happens.

Rolfe.
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I am not asking if it will happen. I am asking if in principle you would support their fight for independence.
 
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