Split Thread Scottish Independence

[funk de fino]

The basic philosophies of both parties are that some people are different to me. Do you disagree?

NO.

The basic premise of the BNP is that they want British only in this country. They want to send everyone else home.

The basic premise of the SNP is that they want self determination. They do not want to kick anyone out of the country.

 

[Rolfe]

Oh, I missed that post. What FdF said. (Or rather, what he obviously meant to say, as in, YES, he disagrees.) The BNP are racist in a white supremacist sense. They want to throw everyone not of predominantly white anglo-saxon or celtic bloodline out of the country.

The SNP wants self-determination for Scotland. Just like Ireland, and Denmark, and other comparable countries have self-determination. It's not interested in throwing anyone out of the country, no matter their ethnic origins. In fact, as Scotland is historically underpopulated, it's quite interested in attracting some more people.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't actually think you'll find it THAT easy to seperate unilaterally.

Want the quotes?

Never mind, let's give it a try and see who's right!

Rolfe.

 

[martu]

NO.

The basic premise of the BNP is that they want British only in this country. They want to send everyone else home.

The basic premise of the SNP is that they want self determination. They do not want to kick anyone out of the country.

I’m sorry but yes – the only way for you to disagree would be for you to say no we do not think there are differences between people. But you do otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

BNP – Britain for the British
SNP – Scotland for the Scottish

Ok you’re not as vile as the BNP in wanting to remove all the non Scots but as a premise you think ‘your’ people are different and have different requirements than the rest of us on this island, hence you need to be separate.

 

[martu]

I think you know the answer to that, even if you feel none of the same emotions yourself. I know I'm not the only person who screams and shouts and cheers when passing that road sign that says "Welcome to Scotland", rather than waiting for the one that names the village, or my own front gate.

What makes Gretna different from Carlisle? You could ask the blacksmith....

What if we put that sign in Dover?

I'm not arguing with your contention that you feel none of the emotions we have been discussing, but I think you have probably discussed them often enough to understand that they exist.

I know they exist. I also know they shouldn’t be used to make decisions on how to govern this island.

Because I didn't recall you saying so in words of one syllable, I was merely inferring it from the totality of your writing on the subject.

Rolfe.

Ah Ok.

 

[martu]

Oh, I missed that post. What FdF said. (Or rather, what he obviously meant to say, as in, YES, he disagrees.) The BNP are racist in a white supremacist sense. They want to throw everyone not of predominantly white anglo-saxon or celtic bloodline out of the country.

The SNP wants self-determination for Scotland. Just like Ireland, and Denmark, and other comparable countries have self-determination. It's not interested in throwing anyone out of the country, no matter their ethnic origins. In fact, as Scotland is historically underpopulated, it's quite interested in attracting some more people.

Rolfe.

I know this but you still think you are different from the English don't you? Yes or no please.

I sit at my desk every day next to a Scotsman, a Ukrainian and opposite a Welshwoman. We seem to get along. We seem to have the same needs in life. We work very well together. What am I missing? What is different between us that you think we require separate government?

Conversely I sit near an Englishman who is, excuse the language, a tit of the highest order and I have needs so far removed from his he could be from another species. Why do you think I have such similar needs that I require the same government just because we’re English?

 

[Rolfe]

I’m sorry but yes – the only way for you to disagree would be for you to say no we do not think there are differences between people. But you do otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

BNP – Britain for the British
SNP – Scotland for the Scottish

Ok you’re not as vile as the BNP in wanting to remove all the non Scots but as a premise you think ‘your’ people are different and have different requirements than the rest of us on this island, hence you need to be separate.

And while there are such things as countries, before your ideal of one world government is achieved, indeed there will be advantages to having that status.

Just because you don't approve, doesn't mean the advantages don't exist, or that it's despicable to seek to achieve what others already enjoy.

If the BNP is simply "Britain for the British", in what way does that make it any different from Labour, or the Conservatives, or the LibDems? Are you seriously suggesting that there's no difference between these parties and the BNP?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

What if we put that sign in Dover?

What, the one that says, "Welcome to Scotland"? Don't you think the Kentish might not like it?

I know they exist. I also know they shouldn’t be used to make decisions on how to govern this island.

Why do you assume that the arbitrary geographical feature of "this island" should be the unit for government purposes?

You the IRA or something?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

I know this but you still think you are different from the English don't you? Yes or no please.

I sit at my desk every day next to a Scotsman, a Ukrainian and opposite a Welshwoman. We seem to get along. We seem to have the same needs in life. We work very well together. What am I missing? What is different between us that you think we require separate government?

Conversely I sit near an Englishman who is, excuse the language, a tit of the highest order and I have needs so far removed from his he could be from another species. Why do you think I have such similar needs that I require the same government just because we’re English?

Look, I know you're an internationalist and all that. I work with Scottish, English, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Swedish - any nationality that comes my way. That's the way of the world. I respect the governments of Spain, Portugal, Germany, Sweden and all the rest. This doesn't mean I think they'd make the best decisions for Scotland, more so than a Scottish government. I expect them to make the best decisions for Spain, Portugal etc. I would like to be on an equal footing with them, so that our interests were similarly represented and protected.

I repeat, given that we don't have your one world government ideal, why is it so "ugly" to seek for one's own country the advantages enjoyed by other European countries who do have political independence?

Rolfe.

 

[martu]

And while there are such things as countries, before your ideal of one world government is achieved, indeed there will be advantages to having that status.

Just because you don't approve, doesn't mean the advantages don't exist, or that it's despicable to seek to achieve what others already enjoy.

If the BNP is simply "Britain for the British", in what way does that make it any different from Labour, or the Conservatives, or the LibDems? Are you seriously suggesting that there's no difference between these parties and the BNP?

Rolfe.

You answer my question first - do you think you are different from the English?

 

[martu]

What, the one that says, "Welcome to Scotland"? Don't you think the Kentish might not like it?

Don't ignore the Men of Kent who will be hurt not to be incuded with the Kentish men.

Why do you assume that the arbitrary geographical feature of "this island" should be the unit for government purposes?

You the IRA or something?

Rolfe.

My 'arbitrary' unit is the globe - by splitting this current island unit into 2 or more is further from that goal.

 

[Lothian]

Rolfe et al,

As I understand the independence arguments you feel the people of Scotland feel their interests are different to those in the rest of UK and want the ability to manage their own affairs. Those affairs include all the oil in the waters that are nearer Scotland than the what is left of the Disunited Kingdom.

Imagine you get independence and the people of Shetland feel their interests are different to those in the rest of Scotland and want the ability to manage their own affairs. Those affairs include all the oil in the waters that are nearer Shetland than the what is left of Scotland.

I presume you would support their rights to independence.

 

[Architect]

You answer my question first - do you think you are different from the English?

Different: Yes

Better: No

 

[Architect]

My 'arbitrary' unit is the globe - by splitting this current island unit into 2 or more is further from that goal.

With respect, it's a very naive position. World Government, if it happens, may well be a laudable objective but there's no sign of it happening for the foreseeable future. Moreover you have failed to consider the extent to which World Government may in fact disenfranchise the general population, removing it still further from the decision-making process. If it's even democractic at all....

 

[Architect]

Rolfe et al,

Imagine you get independence and the people of Shetland feel their interests are different to those in the rest of Scotland and want the ability to manage their own affairs. Those affairs include all the oil in the waters that are nearer Shetland than the what is left of Scotland.

I presume you would support their rights to independence.

I think you'll find that, for all the comments about "Scotland" heard in the Northern Isles, they're a lot more Scottish than anything else. We'll take our chances.

 

[Lothian]

I think you'll find that, for all the comments about "Scotland" heard in the Northern Isles, they're a lot more Scottish than anything else. We'll take our chances.

That wasn't the question.

 

[Fiona]

You answer my question first - do you think you are different from the English?

I know this was not directed at me, but I am going to answer anyway.

No. I do not think I am different from the english; or the french or the dutch or nigerians or australians or anybody else. We are all human and we are all more similar than we are different.

The fact remains that different places have different interests. It is a matter of geography and economy and many, many other factors. The decisions which benefit a rural area are not the same as those which benefit an urban place. The decisions which benefit an economy built on banking are not the same decision which benefit one built on farming or ship building or whatever. That is a fact of life. And that is why we need self determination

As to whether Edinburgh would be seen in the same way as London is now, post independence; it is quite possible: there are great differences between different parts of scotland, as there are in different parts of other countries. Some manage them and some don't. We will see. Nobody is imagining a utopia if we get the right to self determination. The problems we have will still be there and they will still need to be dealt with. They will be dealt with on the basis of our political and economic preferences, and not those of some other group who may or may not identify in a different way: but who nevertheless have returned governments which have virtually no support in this country and which have merrily destroyed our economy on the basis that that is a sacrifice which has to be made for some greater good. They have done the same to some parts of their own country and as I said, if those places wanted to move the border and join an independent scotland I think that would be a smart move: but it is their choice and they will not do that.

 

[mummymonkey]

I see the Nats have scraped together the 50 grand so they can go greetin' to the Court of Session. "It's pure no fair so it's no!"
That's a fair amount of cash just to get his moanin' face on the box.
Again.

 

[funk de fino]

I’m sorry but yes – the only way for you to disagree would be for you to say no we do not think there are differences between people. But you do otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

BNP – Britain for the British
SNP – Scotland for the Scottish

Ok you’re not as vile as the BNP in wanting to remove all the non Scots but as a premise you think ‘your’ people are different and have different requirements than the rest of us on this island, hence you need to be separate.

No you had to tell a lie. Scotland for anyone who want to come and live here. Your equivocation with the BNP just proves how desperate you have become to support your fantasy and minority view.

 

[martu]

Different: Yes

Better: No

What evidence do you base that opinion on? What exactly is different about you?