Split Thread Scottish Independence

[funk de fino]

Er no... As I have repeatedly stated if the people living in Scotland want independence they should have it, I just think the proposed process is wrong. That's why it is funny when Rolfe and others calls me a "unionist" - I'm not, I just happen to think I should have a say in the future of my country i.e. the UK.

You should have zero say on the future of the Scotland as an independent nation, just as I should have zero say on the same issue for England.

You think the whole of the UK should get to vote on Scottish independence?

 

[Undesired Walrus]

You should have zero say on the future of the Scotland as an independent nation, just as I should have zero say on the same issue for England.

You think the whole of the UK should get to vote on Scottish independence?

Why? Independence for Scotland would effect the future of England too (And before I'm confronted with a strawman, I could see myself voting for independence).

If the nationalists started talking more rationally about Independence, and less like the situation was Apartheid South Africa, there may be more sympathy.

 

[andyandy]

You should have zero say on the future of the Scotland as an independent nation, just as I should have zero say on the same issue for England.

You think the whole of the UK should get to vote on Scottish independence?

Well it is an issue that affects all of the UK - so it's not completely unreasonable. The biggest things that would need to be sorted out are the economic and military divisions - it's all very well for there to be a Scotland only vote for independence, but it's going to be meaningless unless there is a UK wide support for the agreed terms of division.

 

[funk de fino]

Why? Independence for Scotland would effect the future of England too (And before I'm confronted with a strawman, I could see myself voting for independence).

If the nationalists started talking more rationally about Independence, and less like the situation was Apartheid South Africa, there may be more sympathy.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... hyperbole. How exactly are they irrational when talking about it?

Well it is an issue that affects all of the UK - so it's not completely unreasonable. The biggest things that would need to be sorted out are the economic and military divisions - it's all very well for there to be a Scotland only vote for independence, but it's going to be meaningless unless there is a UK wide support for the agreed terms of division.

Terms of division? Thats a classic. You think we would be like the woman in a divorce case and try and rape the coffers? I dont want anything from you and neither do most Scots. Just a chance to run our own affairs.

OK, for those who think that the English should have a say in Scotlands referendum for independence, remind me again why Salmond was not given a chance to debate this nationally with the other leaders?

If independence is a national issue then he should have been there.

 

[Agatha]

Been where? The issue of Scottish independence wasn't discussed at the prime ministerial debate on Thursday (which is what this thread is actually about).

 

[andyandy]

Terms of division? Thats a classic. You think we would be like the woman in a divorce case and try and rape the coffers? I dont want anything from you and neither do most Scots. Just a chance to run our own affairs.

It's not that simple though is it? There would have to be a division agreement - it's not simply just going to be a case of Scotland saying "let's run things ourselves" and that being that. Let's take the issue over oil - who gets what? What about capital investment in Scotland? Is that Scotland's? Or the UK government's? Will Scotland continue to be part of the UK armed services? If not who owns what?

It's crazy to paint the division of a country as simplistic - it'd be incredibly complex - of course it'd be possible, and maybe it might be in the best interests of both parties, i have no strong feelings on the matter. But there would definitely need to be a prolonged negotiation about who gets what. And that would need support from both sets of electorate South and North of the border. As such painting this as something that Scotland can just do unilaterally without any input from the rest of the Uk is plain wrong.

 

[funk de fino]

It's not that simple though is it? There would have to be a division agreement - it's not simply just going to be a case of Scotland saying "let's run things ourselves" and that being that. Let's take the issue over oil - who gets what? What about capital investment in Scotland? Is that Scotland's? Or the UK governments? Will Scotland continue to be part of the UK armed services? If not who owns what?

The oil that is in our waters would be ours and the oil in yours would be yours. I'm all for getting all the military out of the country and you can take back whatever the hell you want. Take your Trident and all that other nonsense as well. If the UK govt want to keep the military in the country on security grounds then they can if thats what we want

It's crazy to paint the division of a country as simplistic - it'd be incredibly complex - of course it'd be possible, and maybe it might be in the best interests of both parties, i have no strong feelings on the matter. But there would definitely need to be a prolonged negotiation about who gets what. And that would need support from both sets of electorate South and North of the border. As such painting this as something that Scotland can just do unilaterally without any input from the rest of the Uk is plain wrong.

We are asking for the chance to seperate, you are jumping the gun, especially when it maybe/is being blocked by those in England anyway. Give us the chance to seperate and then discuss your terms. We are not after the crown jewels.

 

[funk de fino]

Been where? The issue of Scottish independence wasn't discussed at the prime ministerial debate on Thursday (which is what this thread is actually about).

People here are saying it is a national issue and the English should have a say in it. If that is the case then Salmond should have been at the debate.

I dont believe it is a national issue. It is an issue for the people of Scotland. In that case I think Salmond should have been nowhere near the debate.

Do you get it?

 

[Agatha]

I entirely understand your point; I find your analogy to a woman in divorce case lazy; but I was under the (clearly mistaken) impression this thread was about the televised prime ministerial debates.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

(Still can't find it online; why do you hate America?)

The whole idea that there should be a national referendum for independence of one part from the rest is just silly. From a foreigner's view, I have no idea what the SNP's arguments are, but I am more and more convinced by the English responses that they are right .

 

[andyandy]

The oil that is in our waters would be ours and the oil in yours would be yours. I'm all for getting all the military out of the country and you can take back whatever the hell you want. Take your Trident and all that other nonsense as well. If the UK govt want to keep the military in the country on security grounds then they can if thats what we want

.

Well sure that might be fine, but there would have to be some discussion on these matters! As far as I see it, if Scotland want independence, then fine, but voting for independence before knowing what the terms of division are actually going to be seems premature. If there is a vote for independence before division terms have been agreed, well, it would seem necessary to have another referendum - this time on both sides of the border to accept the division terms as and when they were drawn up.

 

[Rat]

The whole idea that there should be a national referendum for independence of one part from the rest is just silly.

Why? If I decide that I want my house to be independent from the rest of the UK, with all that that entails, should the rest of the UK and its government have a say in whether that should be so? What if it's all the residents of my street? My town? County?

 

[andyandy]

Why? If I decide that I want my house to be independent from the rest of the UK, with all that that entails, should the rest of the UK and its government have a say in whether that should be so? What if it's all the residents of my street? My town? County?

well, if you still wanted to stop paying taxes and stopped obeying national laws, then i would imagine that the UK government would have something to say about it....

probably along the lines of "Hands behind your back, you're coming with me sunshine....."

 

[funk de fino]

I entirely understand your point; I find your analogy to a woman in divorce case lazy; but I was under the (clearly mistaken) impression this thread was about the televised prime ministerial debates.

I think divorce is quite a good analogy. Not all parties have to want it. It can be quick and easy or one party can be an arse and make it difficult.

I know mine was quick and easy.

ETA - And I am still on speaking terms with my ex.

 

[funk de fino]

Well sure that might be fine, but there would have to be some discussion on these matters! As far as I see it, if Scotland want independence, then fine, but voting for independence before knowing what the terms of division are actually going to be seems premature. If there is a vote for independence before division terms have been agreed, well, it would seem necessary to have another referendum - this time on both sides of the border to accept the division terms as and when they were drawn up.

Rubbish. The agreements after would be a formality. Based on existing territorial water agreements etc. Agreeing on everything before the vote is a ridiculous notion.

 

[funk de fino]

I am quite happy to get back to the OP debate as long as we can put at rest the notion that independence is now a UK national issue. If people want to frame it that way then it is fair game to mention this in respect to this debate.

Most English people I know, couldn't care less about Scotland being independent. In fact, in a study long ago, many inner city kids in London thought they needed a passport to get here. I am sure we will not be missed by too many.

 

[andyandy]

The agreements after would be a formality. .

A formality?

You are aware of how politics works? Unless the SNP cede to any demands the UK government makes, then it'll be far from a formality.....

by all means have a vote before things are agreed - it's just that you'll be voting on a separation without knowing what the resulting separation will entail.

 

[funk de fino]

A formality?

You are aware of how politics works? Unless the SNP cede to any demands the UK government makes, then it'll be far from a formality.....

by all means have a vote before things are agreed - it's just that you'll be voting on a separation without knowing what the resulting separation will entail.

So you are saying the UK govt will be like spoiled brats and act like ******** after the vote?

ETA - They are acting like that already about it.

 

[Fiona]

It seems clear to me that the first question to be answered is whether there is an appetite for independence in Scotland: that is nobody's business but our own and it is a question which stands alone. Should the Scottish people so decide, then it is absolutely clear that the terms would have to be negotiated: that part would not be easy, nor would it necessarily be amicable. I see no way out of that.

In the end some settlement would be reached and there would be compromises. In one sense the capability of the Scottish political class would first be tested in those negotiations: and in truth I think they would probably be the losers because they have far less experience. Though that is offset by the length of time and thought they have put into the issue (I hope)

The outcome might be equitable, or it might favour one nation or the other: who cares? However that ends up the future would be for each to determine, and unless the agreement reached was truly disastrous for one of the nations we would go forward as separate nations and deal with whatever problems/advantages the settlement conferred

 

[funk de fino]

I like the look of this lot, maybe they should be part of the debate



Devolution for England