Resident Evil - Apocalypse

[Mephisto]

Anyone see the 2nd Resident Evil movie with Mila Jovovich? Remember how the townspeople were cordoned off and not allowed to escape the city because of the T virus?

Well, apparently using the military to contain a quarantine in a major U.S. city has already been thought about by the Bush administration. Bush recently asked for permission to use the military for just such a purpose in the event that the avian flu makes it here from Asia. I wonder if they are considering the possibility of firing on the crowd in the event of a major riot? I wonder if they're considering the possibility of a major outbreak among soldiers? I wonder if they've considered a heavily armed populace?

Nahhhh . . .
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Tuesday 04 October 2005

Washington - President George W. Bush asked Congress on Tuesday to consider giving him powers to use the military to enforce quarantines in case of an avian influenza epidemic.

He said the military, and perhaps the National Guard, might be needed to take such a role if the feared H5N1 bird flu virus changes enough to cause widespread human infection.

"If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country? And how do you, then, enforce a quarantine?" Bush asked at a news conference.

"It's one thing to shut down airplanes. It's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu. And who best to be able to effect a quarantine?" Bush added.

"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move. So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."

Bird flu has killed more than 60 people in four Asian nations since late 2003 and has been found in birds in Russia and Europe.

Experts fear that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which appears to be highly fatal when it infects people, will develop the ability to pass easily from person to person and would cause a pandemic that would kill millions.

"And I think the president ought to have all ... assets on the table to be able to deal with something this significant," Bush said.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/100405Q.shtml
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Between the war on terrorism, hurricane relief and the war on avian flu our military is going to be spread pretty thin. I can hardly wait for the announcement of Bush's war on Chinese chickens!

 

[username]

Bird flu has killed more than 60 people in four Asian nations since late 2003 and has been found in birds in Russia and Europe.

Experts fear that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which appears to be highly fatal when it infects people, will develop the ability to pass easily from person to person and would cause a pandemic that would kill millions.

SARs, CWD, Mad cow and I am sure I am forgetting the other non issue diseases of the last several years.

It is good to be prepared, but I have my plastic sheeting and duct tape at the ready in case the bird flu gets serious.

Meanwhile millions die from malaria because the nasty chemicals to kill and repell mosquitos are "too dangerous".

 

[corplinx]

Don't underestimate influenza. An outbreak of avian in the US could kill millions and cripple the economy. It wouldn't merely be a good dose of natural selection. It would also be worst for the poorest people in urban areas.

 

[username]

It wouldn't merely be a good dose of natural selection. It would also be worst for the poorest people in urban areas.

I know this is heartless to say, but if the people hit worst were the poorest people in urban areas wouldn't that qualify as a case of natural selection? Some event occurs and the population that dies off is the population least capable of adapting to it?

Those living in urban areas would presumably be more affected than rural folks because their close proximity to each other favors the most rapid spread of the virus. Those with the lowest incomes are least able to afford measures to prevent and treat the illness.

Seems like a case of natural selection to me. Yes, it is heartless, but natural selection is too.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's funny. Every day, in every way, Bush is getting more and more like Emperor Palpatine. I wonder if he can shoot lightning bolts from his fingers yet?

For a more high-falutin' example, isn't this the sort of thing that got Julius Caesar in trouble with the Senate? Bringing the military into the city itself? And we all know how that worked out: dictatorship followed by assassination, and the end of the Republic.

 

[Ed]

It's funny. Every day, in every way, Bush is getting more and more like Emperor Palpatine. I wonder if he can shoot lightning bolts from his fingers yet?

For a more high-falutin' example, isn't this the sort of thing that got Julius Caesar in trouble with the Senate? Bringing the military into the city itself? And we all know how that worked out: dictatorship followed by assassination, and the end of the Republic.

But, if the question is not raised and discussed and some awful bio-thingie occurs, would you give GW a pass? Or, would you say that he was responsible for x deaths because "he saw it coming and did nothing"?

Be honest now.

 

[CBL4]

I have mixed feelings on this.

If there were an incredibly virulent epidemic (bird flu or bioterrorism), the president (Bush or any other) should impose a quarantine. I would like congress to pass laws on how this would take place. This would be better than the president imposing it when the emergency takes place.

My problem is that I simply do not trust Bush to implement something appropriately or compentently regardless of what congress does or does not do. He justs seems to eager to expand the power of the presidency.

CBL

 

[TragicMonkey]

But, if the question is not raised and discussed and some awful bio-thingie occurs, would you give GW a pass? Or, would you say that he was responsible for x deaths because "he saw it coming and did nothing"?

Be honest now.

I'm not in the habit of believing the president has magical powers and is capable of dealing with all crises, or even responsible for preventing all disasters. I didn't blame Bush for 9/11, either.

I'm with CBL4. If someone must have that authority, give it to Congress. Or the governors of the states concerned. Not to the president. The last thing the presidency needs lately is more power.

 

[Ed]

I'm not in the habit of believing the president has magical powers and is capable of dealing with all crises, or even responsible for preventing all disasters. I didn't blame Bush for 9/11, either.

I'm with CBL4. If someone must have that authority, give it to Congress. Or the governors of the states concerned. Not to the president. The last thing the presidency needs lately is more power.

Agree. But the issue has to be raised.

 

[BPSCG]

If someone must have that authority, give it to Congress.

Congress doesn't have executive authority. And in any case, by the time both houses of congress got around to finishing debate on the issue, Eric Idle would be coming around with a cart calling, "Bring out your dead!"

Or the governors of the states concerned. Not to the president.

How does a governor enforce an interstate travel ban? Does he send out the National Guard and the state militia to police the borders? How does the governor of a state enforce international travel restrictions?

The last thing the presidency needs lately is more power.

Don't worry. Won't happen. A national quarantine would be bad for business, and all Bush's Big Bad Business cronies at Halliburton wouldn't let him, don'tcha know.

Regarding the "Spanish Influenza" pandemic of 1918-1919:

In the United States a quarter of the population (25 million people or more) contracted the flu; 550,000 died.

Link: http://chnm.gmu.edu/features/voices/ww1flu/listeningtowwith.html

and:

The strain of avian influenza virus that has led to the deaths of 140 million birds and 60 people in Asia in the past two years appears to be slowly acquiring genetic changes typical of the "Spanish flu" virus that killed 50 million people nearly a century ago, researchers said yesterday.

Link:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/05/AR2005100501098.html

 

[geni]

I wonder if they are considering the possibility of firing on the crowd in the event of a major riot? I wonder if they're considering the possibility of a major outbreak among soldiers?

Your militry seems to be competant so they probably have

I wonder if they've considered a heavily armed populace?

The recent history of civilains no matter how heavily armed going up against trained first world armies is a little one sided.

 

[Mephisto]

Your militry seems to be competant so they probably have

The recent history of civilains no matter how heavily armed going up against trained first world armies is a little one sided.

I'm sure the military has considered the possibility of an outbreak in the ranks, but I'm not too sure how they would handle shooting on a large gathering of Americans.

Regarding your last statement, they (civilians) seem to be keeping the armies of TWO "first world armies" pretty busy in Iraq right now.

I'm with TragicMonkey and Ed - the issue DOES have to be raised, AND we should keep more military power out of the President's hands.

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Heh, heh, we gotta repeal that Posse Come'n GotUs act, Condy. Heh, heh, they didn't even spell posse right, heh, heh.

 

[Magyar]

For a more high-falutin' example, isn't this the sort of thing that got Julius Caesar in trouble with the Senate? Bringing the military into the city itself? And we all know how that worked out: dictatorship followed by assassination, and the end of the Republic.

Well, we may know that, but you forget Bush doesn't read! and the people around him are certainly NOT going to even contemplate the notion that he's falable.

Remember that Miers thinks he's the most brilliant man she's ever met!
Now either she doesn't get out much or she just has her head up his ass too far. She didn't impress me as someone with a sarcastic sense of humor.

 

[geni]

I'm sure the military has considered the possibility of an outbreak in the ranks, but I'm not too sure how they would handle shooting on a large gathering of Americans.

Point gun pull trigger.

Regarding your last statement, they (civilians) seem to be keeping the armies of TWO "first world armies" pretty busy in Iraq right now.

Oh it's time consumeing but:

Look at the casultry ratios
The armies are trying to control areas rather than stop people getting out of them
They have to try and avoid hurting "inocent civilians"
When there is a direct face off the armies win (baring interfearence from politicians).

 

[DavidJames]

Look at the casultry ratios

Yes, that measure of success kept us in Vietnam how long?

 

[Mephisto]

Can anyone foresee a time when the Minutemen will be surrounding New York State or California (in support of the local law enforcement, of course)?

"Sorry Sir, Canada's closed. The moose out front should have told you."

Speaking of Resident Evil, has anyone seen Dawn of the Dead (either the original or the remake), The Blob (the remake), Soylent Green (Edward G. Robinson's last movie - along with "Moses Got His Gun" Heston), or David Cronenberg's (the director of "History of Violence) movie (starring Marilyn Chambers) "Rabid?"

These have all "raised the issue" of a military-enforced quarantine in modern American/Canadian cities. Yes, they are horror movies, but definitely only half as horrible as the consequences which would undoubtedly result from both the threat of plague and armed violence in a besieged city.

Seems to me Homeland Security could ensure a more novel approach - perhaps the quarantine of Asian poultry and a Immigration ban of people recently traveling through Asian plague areas. But then, that wouldn't fall under crisis management which is the usual Standard Operating Procedure.

 

[geni]

Yes, that measure of success kept us in Vietnam how long?

The vietcong had some training. The causulty ratios were probably incorrect. Oh sure if you run into a really determined group who do have a reasonable amount of training things are going to be tricky in the long run but in a virus out break situation where you don't have to hold out forever and you only need to control relitavely small areas it isn't an issue. You just can't use gerilla tactics under those conditions.

 

[Mephisto]

The vietcong had some training. . . .snip. . . . you only need to control relitavely small areas it isn't an issue. You just can't use gerilla tactics under those conditions.

I'm a disabled veteran and certainly aware of the differences between the mission in Vietnam and cordoning off an entire American city, but what do YOU consider a relatively small area? How big an area do you slice out of the country to ensure that a micro-organism doesn't escape? What if the outbreak appears in Washington D.C? What about a major airport? Can you be sure that an infected person isn't on an airline traveling coast to coast? What is the incubation period of the bug? Is it possible that thousands of infected carriers are moving about the country even BEFORE an outbreak is apparent?

To most intelligent people, shooting unarmed people is rather repugnant, but I'm sure we could find many who are willing. Whether they are all in the military or not is uncertain. Soldiers in wartime, however, have walked away from committing atrocities and I think a good many American soldiers would object to blowing away their neighbors. The mass murder of frantic citizens in desperate times is a foreseeable event if we continue this line of thinking, but then the approach of a hurricane was also a foreseeable event. . .

 

[demon]

Mephisto:
"To most intelligent people, shooting unarmed people is rather repugnant"

And long may it stay so!

Recall that Bush went to super dooper military headquarters in Denver during the recent hurrican Rita, to "watch things from there".
The first paragraph below is from an AP account of Bush's press conference on Oct 4th. Intrigued, I read the text. Very interesting if we consider what it would really mean for Bush to use the military in the US, it would be a type of "maritial law" or "emergency powers". So, what are they really cooking up? Notice he pushes the new version of the Patriot Act, in the middle of talking about oil!

quote:
In a wide-ranging news conference that ran nearly an hour, Bush said he was considering whether the U.S. military should be used to help quarantine part of the country in the event of a pandemic of Avian bird flu. "I'm not predicting an outbreak," he said. "I'm just suggesting to you that we need to be thinking about it."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051004...FFAjpcGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-



Q Thank you, Mr. President. You said at the time of Hurricane Katrina that you were dissatisfied with your administration's response. You've had some time to think about it now. Is there anything that you, yourself, personally, could have done, or would have done differently now?

THE PRESIDENT: You know, look, as I said the other day, to the extent that the federal government fell down on the job, I take responsibility. And I command a large, vast administration, and people I put in place, I take responsibility for the decisions they made. One area where I hope the country takes a look at is the responsibility between federal, state and local government when it comes to catastrophic events, highly-catastrophic events. In other words, is there a need to move federal assets more quickly, in spite of laws on the books that may discourage that. That's an area where I think we ought to take a good, hard look.

We have taken a look at FEMA. We've made decisions inside of FEMA. We're continuing to take a look at FEMA, to make sure FEMA is capable of dealing with an emergency of this size. And so there's a lot of analysis going on, not only to the response in the immediacy of the hurricane, but continuing to analyze, to make sure our response is a wise response.

And then we had the storm, and it took refinery capacity off, and guess what happens? It creates a tight supply situation, which causes price to go up. So Congress needs to deal with that. And I repeat, they need to get the Patriot Act to my desk.

Q Mr. President, you've been thinking a lot about pandemic flu and the risks in the United States if that should occur. I was wondering, Secretary Leavitt has said that first responders in the states and local governments are not prepared for something like that. To what extent are you concerned about that after Katrina and Rita? And is that one of the reasons you're interested in the idea of using defense assets to respond to something as broad and long-lasting as a flu might be?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Thank you for the question. I am concerned about avian flu. I am concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world. I am -- I have thought through the scenarios of what an avian flu outbreak could mean. I tried to get a better handle on what the decision-making process would be by reading Mr. Barry's book on the influenza outbreak in 1918. I would recommend it.

The policy decisions for a President in dealing with an avian flu outbreak are difficult. One example: If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country, and how do you then enforce a quarantine? When -- it's one thing to shut down airplanes; it's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu. And who best to be able to effect a quarantine? One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move.

And so that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have. I noticed the other day, evidently, some governors didn't like it. I understand that. I was the commander-in-chief of the National Guard, and proudly so, and, frankly, I didn't want the President telling me how to be the commander-in-chief of the Texas Guard. But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the President to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe, or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak.

I'm not predicting an outbreak; I'm just suggesting to you that we better be thinking about it. And we are. And we're more than thinking about it; we're trying to put plans in place, and one of the plans -- back to where your original question came -- was, if we need to take some significant action, how best to do so. And I think the President ought to have all options on the table to understand what the consequences are, but -- all assets on the table -- not options -- assets on the table to be able to deal with something this significant.
http://www.earnedmedia.org/wh10041.htm

 

[CapelDodger]

Speaking of Resident Evil, has anyone seen Dawn of the Dead (either the original or the remake), The Blob (the remake), Soylent Green (Edward G. Robinson's last movie - along with "Moses Got His Gun" Heston), or David Cronenberg's (the director of "History of Violence) movie (starring Marilyn Chambers) "Rabid?"

There's also "Escape From New York" and Escape From LA".