Regarding Franko...

[Tricky]

As tough as showing the moon orbiting the earth?
Or some leaves falling off a tree?

Alas, no. You would actually have to study physics and make the amazing discovery, against the majority of current evidence, that TLOP are completely deterministic. It is a hard thing to do. Are you up to it?

?
My decesion was to answer your question. When you said to pick a number between 1-100, I was thinking "pick a number from 1 - 100". 33 was the first number. Maybe I saw it on the steet

Oh, yeah, you can give plenty of explanations in hindsight, but when the time came you just did it. You didn't know why. You made a choice. Two of them actually, including the one to actually pick a number. No one compelled you to do so.

You claim this to be evidence of free-will?
Randomness = free will?

Not exactly, but it demonstrates that the universe is not deterministic. If it can be non-deterministic in one instance, then why not others?

I remember him mentioning something about this "fork of doom". I skipped that crap

maybe you can explain it to me?

Well, this might explain why you are having such a hard time in here Wraith. You really must read what others are saying in order to reply intelligently. Or is that unimportant to you?

HEY!?!?!?!
You run red lights at random?
Where is the random element in the above post?

The random element was that I ran a light that I did not intend to. It means that I occasionally, at random intervals, do things directly opposed to my MPB. As I have said (many times) not everything is random. In fact, true randomness is relatively rare. However, the fact that exists at all means that predestination does not exist.

My history made me select 33.
Would you agree?

No I would not agree. And of course I am familiar with all of the arguments about "prior brain states". All of those arguments are hypothetical. Since we can probably never know the difference between "true free will" and the "illusion of free will", it is my contention that there is no need to make a distinction.

You said "choose a number between 1 and 100". I saw a benefit in doing so. My head scanned the numbers 1 to 100. 33 was the one that I though of first. It felt good. I went with it.

Yes, the first decision was the MPB type of free will. The second decision, by your own admission, was not. If there was a benefit to the number 33, you certainly didn't perceive it.

 

[Franko]

Tricky (deceitful) A-Theist:
Alas, no. You would actually have to study physics and make the amazing discovery, against the majority of current evidence, that TLOP are completely deterministic. It is a hard thing to do. Are you up to it?

Contrary to what you want everyone to believe Trixy, it is far easier for me or the Wraith to demonstrate that the present is based on the past, then it is for you to demonstrate that it is not.

 

[Franko]

bump

 

[Tricky]

Contrary to what you want everyone to believe Trixy, it is far easier for me or the Wraith to demonstrate that the present is based on the past, then it is for you to demonstrate that it is not.

Well it it is so easy, then why don't you do it? Go win the lottery. Tell us the final score of the Super Bowl. Tell us who the Democratic nominee for president will be. Do something useful, or quit whining because everybody's making fun of you.

 

[wraith]

Alas, no. You would actually have to study physics and make the amazing discovery, against the majority of current evidence, that TLOP are completely deterministic. It is a hard thing to do. Are you up to it?

just how is cause and effect magical?
under it's present state, how will it crash into the earth?
when do you run red lights at random?

Oh, yeah, you can give plenty of explanations in hindsight, but when the time came you just did it. You didn't know why. You made a choice. Two of them actually, including the one to actually pick a number. No one compelled you to do so.

MPB told me to actually answer your question and choose a number between 1 and 100!
When you told me to pick a numnber between 1 and 100, my mind had a mental picture of "a number between 1 and 100". 33 was a number that I had visualised. Are you saying that this event was not based on my past?
When I say to you "USA and terrorism" what was the first image that came to your head? Are you saying that this image was due to free-will?

Not exactly, but it demonstrates that the universe is not deterministic. If it can be non-deterministic in one instance, then why not others?

in what instance was it not deterministic?
If you wound back Time 5 minutes, would things turn out differently?
If so, just how can anything be predicted?

Well, this might explain why you are having such a hard time in here Wraith. You really must read what others are saying in order to reply intelligently. Or is that unimportant to you?

Pixy lost the plot. Why would I listen to him?
Maybe you could explain this fork of doom business?

The random element was that I ran a light that I did not intend to. It means that I occasionally, at random intervals, do things directly opposed to my MPB. As I have said (many times) not everything is random. In fact, true randomness is relatively rare. However, the fact that exists at all means that predestination does not exist.

How did you run the red light when it was opposed to your MBP?

No I would not agree. And of course I am familiar with all of the arguments about "prior brain states". All of those arguments are hypothetical. Since we can probably never know the difference between "true free will" and the "illusion of free will", it is my contention that there is no need to make a distinction.

?
So the present is not based on the past?
Back to magic hey?

Just let us know when you run red lights and stop at green ones

Yes, the first decision was the MPB type of free will. The second decision, by your own admission, was not. If there was a benefit to the number 33, you certainly didn't perceive it.

Farm yard animals Trix!
What animal came to mind?
Is this free-will in action Twix?

 

[wraith]

Well it it is so easy, then why don't you do it? Go win the lottery. Tell us the final score of the Super Bowl. Tell us who the Democratic nominee for president will be. Do something useful, or quit whining because everybody's making fun of you.

It's pretty hard when you dont have the info

 

[Tricky]

just how is cause and effect magical?

It's not. Why do you ask?

when do you run red lights at random?

LOL. If I knew that, then it wouldn't be random, now would it?

MPB told me to actually answer your question and choose a number between 1 and 100!

Did it? Why didn't you know why you chose it then? Did you not understand what MPB said?

How can you tell the difference between these two?
1) MPB makes all our choices, but we don't know what they will be

vs

2) We make our own choices.

When you told me to pick a numnber between 1 and 100, my mind had a mental picture of "a number between 1 and 100". 33 was a number that I had visualised. Are you saying that this event was not based on my past?

I'm saying you can't tell if it was or if it wasn't. You said you don't know why you chose it. If you, the person who is choosing, doesn't know, then how can you say that some other unprovable entity knows? All the evidence says YOU made the choice.

When I say to you "USA and terrorism" what was the first image that came to your head? Are you saying that this image was due to free-will?

Yup. I'll bet you can't tell me what image came to my mind. Even if you tried, how could you prove it?

in what instance was it not deterministic?
If you wound back Time 5 minutes, would things turn out differently?

Well, see, that's the funny thing. Time can't be reversed. I know you wish it could be sometimes, but try as you might, you can't . What you propose is a totally untestable scenario. If I say, "yes, things would turn out differently", how would you prove me wrong? If you say, "They would be exactly the same", how do I prove you wrong? It is futile to discuss the results of an impossible situation.

If so, just how can anything be predicted?

Some things can be predicted by analyzing patterns. For example, you can predict when the moon will rise tomorrow because it follows a very repetitive pattern. Other things are probablistic. You can probably predict the high temperature tomorrow within ten degrees because it follows a fairly repetitive pattern. However, other things are not as probablistic. You can't pick the lottery numbers, because there is no pattern at all. I recommend a basic statistics class for you.

Pixy lost the plot. Why would I listen to him?
Maybe you could explain this fork of doom business?

The basic idea is to show that sometimes things happen against MPB and against prediction. The cowardly soldier throws himself on a grenade, for example. Pixy is... well... creative in his scenarios, but I would have thought that most people would have understood it. Oh that's right. You didn't read it.

How did you run the red light when it was opposed to your MBP?

I didn't mean to. I was caught in the middle and couldn't stop. It would never be in my MPB to run red lights on purpose.

So the present is not based on the past?
Back to magic hey?

Of course, a lot of present is based on the past. Most of it in fact. But not all of it. Some of it is completely random. This is why I went to great lengths to illustrate the difference between the MPB version of free will, and the random version of free will.

Just let us know when you run red lights and stop at green ones

If you want to make bets, you can lay good money that I will stop at the overwhelming majority of red lights. On the rare occasion that I don't, it won't be intentional, so I can't let you know in advance.

Farm yard animals Trix!
What animal came to mind?
Is this free-will in action Twix?

If it's not, then you should be able to tell ME what came to my mind.

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
Well it it is so easy, then why don't you do it?

I predict that after dedicating 30+ years of your life to the Religion of A-Theism that there is no way you will ever admit you are wrong. I predict that you will continue to be a dogmatic old fool and you will continue to demonstrate your religious fervor and devotion day after day in this forum.

You will do this despite the stunning and complete lack of evidence for any of the things you believe. You will continue to make obvious logical fallacy, after fallacy and continue to demonstrate that you are simply a brainwashed moron from a cult of utter pessimism.

 

[Aardvark_DK]

I predict that after dedicating 30+ years of your life to the Religion of A-Theism that there is no way you will ever admit you are wrong. I predict that you will continue to be a dogmatic old fool and you will continue to demonstrate your religious fervor and devotion day after day in this forum.

You will do this despite the stunning and complete lack of evidence for any of the things you believe. You will continue to make obvious logical fallacy, after fallacy and continue to demonstrate that you are simply a brainwashed moron from a cult of utter pessimism.

*Aardvark collapses to the floor soiling his trousers and vomiting blood from laughter*

 

[Franko]

*Aardvark collapses to the floor soiling his trousers and vomiting blood from laughter*

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Aardvark A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Aardvark A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

If you want to come to this forum and remind people of this over and over again Aardvark, I don’t mind assisting you one bit. You might say it is my destiny to do just that.

What's the matter Aardvark, is Fate preventing you from simply conceding the obvious? Like I said ... YOU obey TLOP.

 

[Tricky]

I predict that after dedicating 30+ years of your life to the Religion of A-Theism that there is no way you will ever admit you are wrong. I predict that you will continue to be a dogmatic old fool and you will continue to demonstrate your religious fervor and devotion day after day in this forum.

And let me guess. You will be the one who decides whether or not these "predictions" are correct, right? If you learned anything from the Randi Challenge, it should be that no judging is required. Make us some predictions that anyone can verify. I've already given you a few examples. I predict you will continue to refuse to do so. I further predict that you will continue to make straw men in great profusion.

You will do this despite the stunning and complete lack of evidence for any of the things you believe. You will continue to make obvious logical fallacy, after fallacy and continue to demonstrate that you are simply a brainwashed moron from a cult of utter pessimism.

Such wit! Such passion! Surely you must have been Oscar Wilde in your previous life.

 

[Max560]

Franko-

Why don't you just trot out this Logical Tart that you worship?

That would wrap up this whole arguement.

-just trying to help

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Oh, Franko! If at least you had any idea what a fallacy is... Alas, no. Perhaps you go by The Lexicon's definition of fallacy?

Anyway, click on the provided link and be sure to read about the Straw Man fallacy. When you've read it - and understood it, then... Well, I'm sure I have no idea what happens then.

 

[Starshark]

Because I am now drunk, I am going to read this whole thread from start to finish.

Does anyone want to bet how many toes I'll have left when I'm finished? Something tells me I'll have bitten more than a few of them off before I'm done.


(edditteded to correcct shepelliing)

 

[Starshark]

Christ, I only made it to the second post and I've lost a toe already.

Why the Hell does Franko keep using the term "A-Theist"? What's with the dash? Is it a secret code for the Fellows of the Secret Society of Morons?

 

[Starshark]

Doubt,



Atoms obey the laws of physics.
You are made of atoms.
YOU OBEY THE LAWS OF PHSYICS.

When you have EVIDENCE that refutes this obvious TRUTH, then you will have evidence for “free will”. Until that Time you are a Religious Nitwit, who prefers Wishful Thinking to Logic and Reason.

BTW - You are a Nitwit for pretending that you are NOT religious, when you clearly are.



Perhaps that is Your Destiny, but I assure you … it is NOT mine.



Yeah … you need more bad Karma (especially from Me), like you need a bullet in your temple.

AAaaaagh!

Another toe!

Jedi Knight has a post next... Gawd... not another toe, please!

 

[Starshark]

Okay... I got to page 2 and I gave up. I'm not that drunk. Nor do I have that many toes.


Someone has already asked Franko, "If you don't believe in free will, why do you bother trying to prove to people that it doesn't exist?", did he have an answer to that? Or is it just something he ignores like everything else?

 

[Aardvark_DK]

Someone has already asked Franko, "If you don't believe in free will, why do you bother trying to prove to people that it doesn't exist?", did he have an answer to that? Or is it just something he ignores like everything else?

I think he's trying to save us. Not sure though.

Henceforth you shall be known as Starshark the Almost Toeless.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist)
And let me guess. You will be the one who decides whether or not these "predictions" are correct, right? If you learned anything from the Randi Challenge, it should be that no judging is required. Make us some predictions that anyone can verify. I've already given you a few examples. I predict you will continue to refuse to do so. I further predict that you will continue to make straw men in great profusion.

You say the present isn’t based on the past Trixy? You really believe that? I bet that out of all the teams in the NFL I can narrow the winner down to one of only two teams, in fact … I bet I could tell you who will win …

Okay here’s another prediction. You don’t have ANY evidence for your Religious beliefs, and despite this fact you are going to continue to post on this forum demanding that we accept a view of the origin and nature of the Universe that YOU yourself concede you cannot explain! You are going to demand that we accept your religion as the “one true faith” based solely on your word.

And since you have also stipulated that you don’t believe there will be any consequences for your actions if you lie to us (“Tricky”) then we really have no logical reason for taking you at your word.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky, A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky, A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

If you want to come to this forum and remind people of this over and over again Trixy, I don’t mind assisting you one bit. You might say it is my destiny to do just that.

 

[Tricky]

You say the present isn’t based on the past Trixy? You really believe that? I bet that out of all the teams in the NFL I can narrow the winner down to one of only two teams, in fact … I bet I could tell you who will win …

Oh Franko, these powers of LD are just amazing! Out of two teams in a game in which ties are impossible ONE TEAM WILL WIN! You really are the clever chap. I notice that you you say you think you know who will win, but with a typical show of your brand of courage, you decline to do so. Is the LD not speaking to you anymore? Don't tell me SHE put you on "ignore' too.

Okay here’s another prediction. You don’t have ANY evidence for your Religious beliefs, and despite this fact you are going to continue to post on this forum demanding that we accept a view of the origin and nature of the Universe that YOU yourself concede you cannot explain! You are going to demand that we accept your religion as the “one true faith” based solely on your word.

You are right in one sense that I don't have any evidence for my religions beliefs, because I don't have any religious beliefs. Nor have I asked you to accept my views of the origin and nature of the universe. Hasn't Aardvark shamed you into looking up the definition of "straw man" yet? Well, I'm not surprised.

And since you have also stipulated that you don’t believe there will be any consequences for your actions if you lie to us (“Tricky”) then we really have no logical reason for taking you at your word.

As I have mentioned before, my lad, if you are going to lie, at least make it a good lie. Don't lie when it is so incredibly easy to prove you wrong.

And what's with this new tactic of making up false quotes? In the real world, that could land you a libel suit. Of course, I realize that your bravery quotient is too low to do anything that might have adverse consequences for you.