Regarding Franko...

[Max560]

Show us this Logical Tart that you worship!

I'm here to help.

 

[wraith]

It's not. Why do you ask?

it's not?
you believe in pure randomness....pretty magical to me

LOL. If I knew that, then it wouldn't be random, now would it?

Hence me saying that you dont run red lights at "random".
Although, you did say that you ran red lights at "random" sometimes, did you not?

Did it? Why didn't you know why you chose it then? Did you not understand what MPB said?

How can you tell the difference between these two?
1) MPB makes all our choices, but we don't know what they will be

vs

2) We make our own choices.

I think that you are confusing the issue.
33 was the number that came to my head when I thought "numbers between 1 and 100"

when I say "farm yard animals" Trix, what animal did you initially think of?
Is this evidence for free-will?

I'm saying you can't tell if it was or if it wasn't. You said you don't know why you chose it. If you, the person who is choosing, doesn't know, then how can you say that some other unprovable entity knows? All the evidence says YOU made the choice.

Again, when I say "farm yard animals" Trix, what animal did you initially think of?
Is this evidence for free-will?

Are you saying that my decision to "choose" 33 wasnt based on logic? The present is not based on the past?
When I say "farm yard animals" do you instantly think of cars?

wraith: When I say to you "USA and terrorism" what was the first image that came to your head? Are you saying that this image was due to free-will?

Tricky: Yup. I'll bet you can't tell me what image came to my mind. Even if you tried, how could you prove it?

LET ME GET THIS!
Lets just say that the image that you thought of was a tank. Are you telling me that when I said "USA and terrorism" you just though of a tank? Are you saying that this image that you thought of was not based on the past? Are you saying that if you didnt know what "USA" and "terrorism" meant, you would still be thinking of a tank?

now thats magic

oh, and why would I have to prove it? lol

Well, see, that's the funny thing. Time can't be reversed.

You sure about that?
muhaha

I know you wish it could be sometimes, but try as you might, you can't . What you propose is a totally untestable scenario. If I say, "yes, things would turn out differently", how would you prove me wrong? If you say, "They would be exactly the same", how do I prove you wrong? It is futile to discuss the results of an impossible situation.

just how can we predict anything if the present is not based on the past?

Some things can be predicted by analyzing patterns. For example, you can predict when the moon will rise tomorrow because it follows a very repetitive pattern. Other things are probablistic. You can probably predict the high temperature tomorrow within ten degrees because it follows a fairly repetitive pattern. However, other things are not as probablistic. You can't pick the lottery numbers, because there is no pattern at all. I recommend a basic statistics class for you.

Are you saying that these events are not logical?

The basic idea is to show that sometimes things happen against MPB and against prediction. The cowardly soldier throws himself on a grenade, for example. Pixy is... well... creative in his scenarios, but I would have thought that most people would have understood it. Oh that's right. You didn't read it.

How is the cowardly soldier throwing himself onto a grenade, acting against his MPB? If that wasnt the max perceived benefit, then he wouldnt have thrown himself onto the grenade.

I didn't mean to. I was caught in the middle and couldn't stop. It would never be in my MPB to run red lights on purpose.

So you didnt see the red light till you were in the middle of the intersection?
How is that against MPB?
You didnt see the red light, so how did you know when to stop? Then when you finally saw it, you kept on going, perhaps you even accelerated.
All this falls under MPB...

Of course, a lot of present is based on the past. Most of it in fact. But not all of it. Some of it is completely random. This is why I went to great lengths to illustrate the difference between the MPB version of free will, and the random version of free will.

MBP does not equal free-will!
oh..and random version of free-will?
free-will is magic...all versions!

If you want to make bets, you can lay good money that I will stop at the overwhelming majority of red lights. On the rare occasion that I don't, it won't be intentional, so I can't let you know in advance.

In other words, your actions are logical

If it's not, then you should be able to tell ME what came to my mind.

lol
yes Trix, assuming that I had all the info, I could...
give it time, perhaps Ill be able to read your mind

 

[wraith]

Show us this Logical Tart that you worship!

I'm here to help.

no youre not

 

[neutrino_cannon]

Franko, this adressed to you:

What is it that bothers you about atheism? As far as I can tell, the primary motivation behind atheism is not at all the avoidance of morals, which cannot logicaly exist without free will, but the conclusion that it is unlikely, at best that there is any sort of "un-moved prime mover" in the universe or anywhere else.

 

[Tricky]

you believe in pure randomness....pretty magical to me

I know it does to you. You believe that every throw of the dice, every spin of the roulette wheel, every deal of the cards is predestined. Thats why people like you are beloved by casinos. Without a knowledge of random distributions, you have no conception of how to "play the odds".

Hence me saying that you dont run red lights at "random".
Although, you did say that you ran red lights at "random" sometimes, did you not?

Did you not understand the explanation? I really don't know how to make it simpler. It's like someone saying "prepare for the unexpected". Well if it's unexpected, then you can't prepare for it, right? If you do prepare, then it's expected. Similarly, if you can predict, with minimal error, the outcome of future events, then they are not random.

when I say "farm yard animals" Trix, what animal did you initially think of?
Is this evidence for free-will?

If you can't tell me what I thought of, then it is evidence for free will. If you want to try this, I would be willing to set up a test where you submit your guess and I submit my answer to a third party. If you guess right, then you have a single datum for predestination. However, unless you can do it again and again with a high percentage of accuracy, then you are giving evidence for free will again and again.

Again, when I say "farm yard animals" Trix, what animal did you initially think of?
Is this evidence for free-will?

What is your point, Wraith? The only important thing is that I can choose to think of something. The number of common farm animals is fairly low, probably less than ten, so the chances you could predict what I said are much higher than if you said "pick your favorite song". Nevertheless, I suspect you still couldn't predict what I picked. My free will trumps your predestination.

Are you saying that my decision to "choose" 33 wasnt based on logic? The present is not based on the past?
When I say "farm yard animals" do you instantly think of cars?

LOL. I'm a little worried about your fascination with farm animals, Wraith. Do you honestly think that free will means that people cannot answer a question? If so, it is even more proof that Logical Deists have free will.

LET ME GET THIS!
Lets just say that the image that you thought of was a tank. Are you telling me that when I said "USA and terrorism" you just though of a tank? Are you saying that this image that you thought of was not based on the past? Are you saying that if you didnt know what "USA" and "terrorism" meant, you would still be thinking of a tank?

(sigh) No I am not saying that at all. I am saying that given a range of choices, I am free to choose within that range. If you really want to know what I thought of, I will tell you later. It involves a bit of history.

oh, and why would I have to prove it? lol

Because you are saying my choices are predetermined. If you want to prove it, you have to show that they are. You can't quote some piece of illogic that says "TLOP" knows what they are. You have to show it. Can you?

You sure about that?
muhaha

Let's just say that every single piece of evidence I've ever collected says that time is not reversible (much as I'd like it to be sometimes). If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested to hear it.

just how can we predict anything if the present is not based on the past?

You can't. Evaluation of patterns is critical to analysis. I'm a geologist and my whole science is based on the predicate, "The present is the key to the past". That means that the things we see operating today operated much the same way in the past. And yet, in spite of careful analysis, some things simply cannot be predicted. If they could, then lotteries would soon be out of business.

Are you saying that these events are not logical?

Again, you confuse logic with prediction. It is LOGIC that says you cannot predict the outcome of a roll of dice. I'm afraid your concept of logic has been badly warped by people who don't understand it. You would be better served by studying it yourself or taking a course, rather than relying on questionable sources.

How is the cowardly soldier throwing himself onto a grenade, acting against his MPB? If that wasnt the max perceived benefit, then he wouldnt have thrown himself onto the grenade.

A benefit that he will never see? No, he had what is called "empathy", or caring about others. He used his free will to do something which had no possible benefit for himself, contrary to all the prior evidence of his self-protective nature.

So you didnt see the red light till you were in the middle of the intersection?
How is that against MPB?
You didnt see the red light, so how did you know when to stop? Then when you finally saw it, you kept on going, perhaps you even accelerated.
All this falls under MPB...

You have no idea what happened. Your weren't there. You asked me if I ever ran red lights at random. I gave you a case where I did. Why is it that every time I answer your questions you remain unsatisfied?

MBP does not equal free-will!
oh..and random version of free-will?
free-will is magic...all versions!

So you say (and say, and say and say....). Yet, i have given you several instances which indicate otherwise. Why is it that I have to continually provide evidence and examples, while you do nothing but fall back on your unsupported claims?

In other words, your actions are logical.

Most of my actions are logical (though I have my moments ) but as I have shown, logic is not anthical to free will. I have done some things that seemed completely logical at the time, but in retrospect were incredibly stupid. Haven't you? If not, you are probably the only human who has never made a mistake.

yes Trix, assuming that I had all the info, I could...
give it time, perhaps Ill be able to read your mind

Untill you are able to prove that you or some other entity has "all the info" then your contentions are mere speculation without a shred of evidence. But keep gathering information. It is how you learn. Maybe one day you will learn about physics, statistics, logic and all sorts of wonderful things!

 

[Max560]

So the Logical Tart sits around and reads the book of the universe, and crosses out the naughty characters with the Red Pen of Justice.

Does that cover it?

Just trying to help.

 

[wraith]

I know it does to you. You believe that every throw of the dice, every spin of the roulette wheel, every deal of the cards is predestined. Thats why people like you are beloved by casinos. Without a knowledge of random distributions, you have no conception of how to "play the odds".

if you think that the outcome of a casion game is magic, be my guest

Did you not understand the explanation? I really don't know how to make it simpler. It's like someone saying "prepare for the unexpected". Well if it's unexpected, then you can't prepare for it, right? If you do prepare, then it's expected. Similarly, if you can predict, with minimal error, the outcome of future events, then they are not random.

your actions are logical...no matter how "stupid" they are are

If you can't tell me what I thought of, then it is evidence for free will. If you want to try this, I would be willing to set up a test where you submit your guess and I submit my answer to a third party. If you guess right, then you have a single datum for predestination. However, unless you can do it again and again with a high percentage of accuracy, then you are giving evidence for free will again and again.

so you want me to mind read now?
you want me to make a prediction, based on incomplete information?
haha, well done Trix

What is your point, Wraith? The only important thing is that I can choose to think of something. The number of common farm animals is fairly low, probably less than ten, so the chances you could predict what I said are much higher than if you said "pick your favorite song". Nevertheless, I suspect you still couldn't predict what I picked. My free will trumps your predestination.

lol
again you want me to mind read and make a prediction based on incomplete information...
does this make you feel good?

LOL. I'm a little worried about your fascination with farm animals, Wraith.

and you say that I have a problem with carnal knowledge
haha! get with it Twix

Do you honestly think that free will means that people cannot answer a question? If so, it is even more proof that Logical Deists have free will.

Did I imply that?

(sigh) No I am not saying that at all. I am saying that given a range of choices, I am free to choose within that range. If you really want to know what I thought of, I will tell you later. It involves a bit of history.

thats exactly what youre saying

Because you are saying my choices are predetermined. If you want to prove it, you have to show that they are. You can't quote some piece of illogic that says "TLOP" knows what they are. You have to show it. Can you?

Atoms obey TLOP
Youre made of atoms
You obey TLOP

I know that you want this to be false

Let's just say that every single piece of evidence I've ever collected says that time is not reversible (much as I'd like it to be sometimes). If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested to hear it.

Give it Time
Maybe you can change your Destiny?

You can't. Evaluation of patterns is critical to analysis. I'm a geologist and my whole science is based on the predicate, "The present is the key to the past". That means that the things we see operating today operated much the same way in the past. And yet, in spite of careful analysis, some things simply cannot be predicted. If they could, then lotteries would soon be out of business.

Lotto is magic now?
Their operation is entirely magical?
They dont obey TLOP?

Again, you confuse logic with prediction. It is LOGIC that says you cannot predict the outcome of a roll of dice.

So the roll of the dice is magical?
It doesnt obey TLOP?

I'm afraid your concept of logic has been badly warped by people who don't understand it. You would be better served by studying it yourself or taking a course, rather than relying on questionable sources.

classic

A benefit that he will never see? No, he had what is called "empathy", or caring about others. He used his free will to do something which had no possible benefit for himself, contrary to all the prior evidence of his self-protective nature.

He saw a benefit to protect someone else at the sacrifice of himself

You have no idea what happened. Your weren't there. You asked me if I ever ran red lights at random. I gave you a case where I did. Why is it that every time I answer your questions you remain unsatisfied?

Didnt you say that you didnt run red lights at random?
Now you say that you do?

Most of my actions are logical (though I have my moments ) but as I have shown, logic is not anthical to free will. I have done some things that seemed completely logical at the time, but in retrospect were incredibly stupid. Haven't you? If not, you are probably the only human who has never made a mistake.

How does a mistake = not logical?

Untill you are able to prove that you or some other entity has "all the info" then your contentions are mere speculation without a shred of evidence. But keep gathering information. It is how you learn. Maybe one day you will learn about physics, statistics, logic and all sorts of wonderful things!

TLOP is non-consciousness?
That is something that you have to show...not me

 

[wraith]

So the Logical Tart sits around and reads the book of the universe, and crosses out the naughty characters with the Red Pen of Justice.

Does that cover it?

Just trying to help.

youve lost the plot monfre

 

[CWL]

TLOP is non-consciousness?
That is something that you have to show...not me

Frankowraith,

Here we go again. "Prove that TLOP is not conscious", "Prove your outrageous claim of No-God", etc.

Come on, I though you LD guys were SKEPTICS! Are you seriously asking us to prove negatives?

First you have to shift the burden of proof by providing evidence for your positive claims.

Thus, pray tell, what is your evidence that TLOP is conscious?

If you are about to reply with the assertion "TLOP controls YOU control CAR" (which is just that - an assertion, not evidence) please riddle me this:

• 1) What do you mean when you say that YOU are "more conscious" than CAR? As far as I know (and probably the vast majority of the sane human population of this planet) a car is not conscious at all. How do you "grade" consciousess anyway? Isn't something either conscious or non-conscious?
  
  2) What is your evidence that everything must be controlled by someting that is "more conscious"? Does this apply to your Goddess as well? Is she also in need of control by a more conscious entity?

 

[Franko]

CWLoser:

Here we go again. "Prove that TLOP is not conscious", "Prove your outrageous claim of No-God", etc.

Come on, I though you LD guys were SKEPTICS! Are you seriously asking us to prove negatives?

There is no such thing as a negative hypothesis CWL. And I find it odd that you claim TLOP is non-conscious and then you claim that the Wraith and myself are not being Skeptical for refusing to believe your claim without ANY evidence to support it. Taking someone at their word is not skepticism CWL, especially if the person who’s word you are accepting is an A-Theist religious fanatic.

“Proving a negative”, you mean like proving that you don’t have magic “free will” powers? Ohhh, it’s easy to prove your False-God doesn’t exist CWL. Things which are FALSE are easy to disprove:

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Didn’t anyone ever tell you CWL, Atoms don’t have “free will”.

First you have to shift the burden of proof by providing evidence for your positive claims.

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.

Thus, pray tell, what is your evidence that TLOP is conscious?

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.

In the same way that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU. If you are disputing this then please provide YOUR evidence that your CAR is actually more conscious then YOU are.

If you are about to reply with the assertion "TLOP controls YOU control CAR" (which is just that - an assertion, not evidence) please riddle me this:
1) What do you mean when you say that YOU are "more conscious" than CAR? As far as I know (and probably the vast majority of the sane human population of this planet) a car is not conscious at all.

Well if you concede that the Car is not conscious at all, and you also concede that You are conscious, then it is fairly simple to conclude that YOU and more conscious then the Car.

How do you "grade" consciousess anyway? Isn't something either conscious or non-conscious?

You grade consciousness by observing control. Entities which are more conscious tend to control entities which are less conscious over Time.

2) What is your evidence that everything must be controlled by someting that is "more conscious"? Does this apply to your Goddess as well? Is she also in need of control by a more conscious entity?

I never claimed that everything needs to be controlled by something. But I have stated that more conscious entities tend to control less conscious entities. As far as I know The Logical Goddess is the Top of the Pyramid, and without ANY evidence to the contrary it is blasphemy for me to think otherwise.

 

[Franko]

neutrino:

What is it that bothers you about atheism?

You mean aside from the fact that it is an evil, pessimistic, dogmatic religion completely unsupported by ANY evidence who’s followers non-the-less claim to be skeptics?

As far as I can tell, the primary motivation behind atheism is not at all the avoidance of morals …

Is this an un-biased opinion? You aren’t an A-Theist yourself, by any chance?

[morals] … which cannot logicaly exist without free will

Since you can’t even define “free will”, and since you have no evidence for “free will”, and since morals obviously exist anyway, I’d ask how you arrived at this conclusion?

… but the conclusion that it is unlikely, at best that there is any sort of "un-moved prime mover" in the universe or anywhere else.

What? NC, you do agree that the Universe exist – correct?

Was the Universe always here in it’s present form?

If not, then how did it get here, and where did it come from? If you can’t explain it too me logically, then you might as well be telling me that the Universe magically appeared out of no where.

 

[CWL]

CWLoser:

There is no such thing as a negative hypothesis CWL.

Yes there is. A claim of the existence of something is positive. A claim of the non-existence of something is negative.

The burden of proof is placed on the one making a positive assertion. Once evidence has been presented, the burden is shifted to the one making a negative assertion. 'Taint rocket science you know.

And I find it odd that you claim TLOP is non-conscious and then you claim that the Wraith and myself are not being Skeptical for refusing to believe your claim without ANY evidence to support it. Taking someone at their word is not skepticism CWL, especially if the person who’s word you are accepting is an A-Theist religious fanatic.

You are making the positive claim (that TLOP is conscious) - you prove it.

If you provide evidence of TLOP being conscious I will gladly assume the burden of disproving the assertion.

BTW - if I am an "A-theist", does this make you a "B-Theist"?

“Proving a negative”, you mean like proving that you don’t have magic “free will” powers?

Yes! Only, I have never claimed to have any "free will powers". I have observed myself and others "making choices between perceived and available options". In what way is this any different from standing at a "decision junction" and choosing according to one's "maximum perceived benefit"? Exactly what do you feel is "magical" about what I am saying?

Ohhh, it’s easy to prove your False-God doesn’t exist CWL. Things which are FALSE are easy to disprove:

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Didn’t anyone ever tell you CWL, Atoms don’t have “free will”.

That might be so. Neither do atoms have consciousness or are atoms visible to the naked eye. Does this mean that humans aren't conscious or visible to the naked eye?

But let's leav the Fallacy of Composition behind for now. You would have me believe that we are not made of atoms, but also of a "Graviton". Just how do we know that "Gravitons" do not have "free will"?

And what exactly do you mean by "free will"? Who is this "False-God" you claim that I believe in?

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.

In the same way that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU. If you are disputing this then please provide YOUR evidence that your CAR is actually more conscious then YOU are.

I am not disputing that I am "more conscious" than my car. How does this prove your claim that TLOP is conscious?

Well if you concede that the Car is not conscious at all, and you also concede that You are conscious, then it is fairly simple to conclude that YOU and more conscious then the Car.

Again, fair enough, but besides the point. That I control my car (which isn't conscious, agreed) does not prove that TLOP is conscious.

You grade consciousness by observing control. Entities which are more conscious tend to control entities which are less conscious over Time.

Ok. I understand the assertion. How do you prove it?

I never claimed that everything needs to be controlled by something. But I have stated that more conscious entities tend to control less conscious entities. As far as I know The Logical Goddess is the Top of the Pyramid, and without ANY evidence to the contrary it is blasphemy for me to think otherwise.

"Tend to control" is not the same as "control", Franko. "Blasphemy" is nothing that should bother a true skeptic.

How do you know the Logical Goddess to be "on the Top of the Pyramid"?

 

[Franko]

CWL: (A-Theist Hypocrite)

Yes there is. A claim of the existence of something is positive. A claim of the non-existence of something is negative.

The burden of proof is placed on the one making a positive assertion. Once evidence has been presented, the burden is shifted to the one making a negative assertion. 'Taint rocket science you know.

So your claim that “free will exists” is a positive claim. Exactly the same as someone claiming that “god exist”.

Yet you’ll notice I’ve had no trouble providing evidence for NO “free will” while you have been completely incapable of providing any positive evidence for the existence of “free will”?

So you acknowledge the standard, and yet you STILL fail to meet it. That’s called YOU being a HYPOCRITE CWL!

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

CWL:
You are making the positive claim (that TLOP is conscious) - you prove it.

Actually you are also making a “positive claim”, you are claiming that TLOP is non-conscious. If that isn’t a positive claim, then explain why it isn’t?

What is your evidence for believing that TLOP is non-conscious?

Franko:
“Proving a negative”, you mean like proving that you don’t have magic “free will” powers?

CWL:
Yes! Only, I have never claimed to have any "free will powers". I have observed myself and others "making choices between perceived and available options". In what way is this any different from standing at a "decision junction" and choosing according to one's "maximum perceived benefit"? Exactly what do you feel is "magical" about what I am saying?

This just demonstrates you inherent dishonesty CWL. Obviously you have been arguing for “free will” for quite some time now (and fanatically so), yet suddenly you want to backtrack and pretend that you might no longer believe?

You need to pick a side in this debate, and stick to it, and either provide evidence for Your belief, or concede that you cannot provide any evidence because you don’t have any evidence for the things you believe.

That might be so. Neither do atoms have consciousness or are atoms visible to the naked eye. Does this mean that humans aren't conscious or visible to the naked eye?

Groups of Atoms are visible to the naked eye. As for groups of Atoms being “conscious”, that is up for debate. According to some A-Theists (Yatzi for example), consciousness is just an illusion.

As for “free will”, I don’t believe Atoms have “free will”, and I don’t perceive any “free will” in humans either, but since you have never even bothered to supply a logically consistent and precise definition of “free will” – who knows? I’ve noticed that you A-Theists like to keep your terms as vague as possible. That way it prevents people from detecting that you are utterly clueless about what you are talking about.

But let's leav the Fallacy of Composition behind for now.

Ahhh yes, 2 + 2 = 4 is incorrect, but you can’t explain why? Kind of like an A-Theist version of the emperor’s new clothes? Ahhh, CWL, if only us Theists and Deists were as smart as you, then perhaps we would be able to perceive the emperor’s new clothes, and the invisible flaws you perceive in valid syllogisms.

You would have me believe that we are not made of atoms, but also of a "Graviton". Just how do we know that "Gravitons" do not have "free will"?

Gravitons are bound by the laws of Gravity (Gravity being one of the 4 forces making up TLOP).

And what exactly do you mean by "free will"? Who is this "False-God" you claim that I believe in?

“free willy” is the “god” of A-Theism. All devout A-Theists pay homage to this “god” even though many A-Theists have been so thoroughly brainwashed they do not realize it. Without “free willy” there is no A-Theism.

I am not disputing that I am "more conscious" than my car. How does this prove your claim that TLOP is conscious?

Okay, so now YOU = CAR, and TLOP = YOU, and just like YOU, TLOP is not disputing that She is “more conscious” then YOU.

TLOP is controlling you, You think you are using “free will” to respond to these posts? If that’s the case, then how come your responses are so predictable? You were an A-Theist yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that? It seems to me that the present is based on the past, yet YOU and TRICKY STILL want to claim that Determinism is False … ?

Again, fair enough, but besides the point. That I control my car (which isn't conscious, agreed) does not prove that TLOP is conscious.

TLOP is controlling your actions to a far greater degree than YOU are controlling your CAR’s actions, so how can you make this claim? If YOU need to be more conscious then CAR then how on Earth can TLOP be less conscious than YOU, yet control you better and more completely then YOU control CAR? Can you explain that to us, because it doesn’t make ANY sense what-so-ever.

It sounds like you are claiming that Your CAR (a part of TLOP) is actually more conscious then YOU are, and when you are driving your CAR, it is actually the CAR controlling YOU. How is what you are claiming ANY different?

Ok. I understand the assertion. How do you prove it?

Well I guess you never really prove anything – do you? You just go with what your best evidence and Logic tell you. The main difference between Me and You is that you just make up evidence (or your own “logic”) when you don’t like the Truth in reality. Like all A-Theist you fear the Truth.

How do you know the Logical Goddess to be "on the Top of the Pyramid"?

Because I’ve never observed any entity more powerful then Her. Ergo, She is the most powerful entity that I have evidence for.

 

[CWL]

Because I’ve never observed any entity more powerful then Her. Ergo, She is the most powerful entity that I have evidence for.

How did you observe your Goddess? What is this evidence of which you speak?

 

[PixyMisa]

So your claim that “free will exists” is a positive claim. Exactly the same as someone claiming that “god exist”.

It is in the same category, yes.

Yet you’ll notice I’ve had no trouble providing evidence for NO “free will”

Actually, I haven't seen you provide any evidence of anything at any point. You have provided a series of exceedingly confused, illogical, unsupported, contradictory and poorly written statements arguing that free will cannot exist.

while you have been completely incapable of providing any positive evidence for the existence of “free will”?

Apart from the six billion walking talking examples, that is.

So you acknowledge the standard, and yet you STILL fail to meet it. That’s called YOU being a HYPOCRITE CWL!

Sad, Franko. That's not even ironic, it's just dumb.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?

People. Make. Choices.

CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

Hey, Franko, that strawman has your face on it!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?

Don't know that CWL has claimed that "God" does not exist. Certainly I merely point out the total lack of evidence supporting claims of such a critter's existence.

CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

Another Straw-Franko bites the dust!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP

False. Based on your definition of the word "obey" and our current understanding of the laws of physics, nothing "Franko-obeys" the laws of physics.

You are made of Atoms

Inaccurate. I am not merely a random arrangement of atoms. I am a specific arrangement of atoms; I am atoms and information and energy.

YOU OBEY TLOP!

Again, nothing in the universe "Franko-obeys" the laws of physics.

Total worthless arguments against free will: 1
Total actual evidence presented: 0

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”)

Objection: Defendent has redefined the claim!

makes/controls YOU

False. The laws of physics make nothing. The laws of physics control nothing.

makes/controls CAR.

Note that this last is not an argument for the existence of God, but rather an argument for free will.

In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

False. No evidence for the consciousness of the laws of physics has been presented. In fact, all human knowledge and reason indicates that such a thing is entirely impossible.

Total meaningless and/or irrelevant arguments: 2
Total evidence presented for the existence of God: 0
Total own goals: 1

Actually you are also making a “positive claim”, you are claiming that TLOP is non-conscious. If that isn’t a positive claim, then explain why it isn’t?

This can be phrased as a positive claim. As such, it is indeed self-evident that the laws of physics are not and cannot be conscious, and that any claim that they are is utterly absurd.

What is your evidence for believing that TLOP is non-conscious?

The laws of physics are a set of mathematical equations. Mathematical equations are not and cannot be conscious.

This just demonstrates you inherent dishonesty CWL.

Well, that's almost irony.

Obviously you have been arguing for “free will” for quite some time now (and fanatically so), yet suddenly you want to backtrack and pretend that you might no longer believe?

Eh?

You need to pick a side in this debate, and stick to it, and either provide evidence for Your belief, or concede that you cannot provide any evidence because you don’t have any evidence for the things you believe.

And since Franko is invariably wrong, it shouldn't be hard to pick.

Groups of Atoms are visible to the naked eye.

Yes. So?

As for groups of Atoms being “conscious”, that is up for debate.

No, it isn't. Individual atoms are not and cannot be conscious.

According to some A-Theists (Yatzi for example), consciousness is just an illusion.

Yes. So?

As for “free will”, I don’t believe Atoms have “free will”

Clearly they do not and cannot.

and I don’t perceive any “free will” in humans either

Well, the fault obviously lies in your perception, since everyone else is able to see this.

but since you have never even bothered to supply a logically consistent and precise definition of “free will” – who knows?

A logically consistent and precise defintion has been provided to you at least a hundred times. Apparently this is not sufficient to actually impinge upon your dim and cloudy awareness.

I’ve noticed that you A-Theists like to keep your terms as vague as possible.

Ah! Irony! At last, irony!

That way it prevents people from detecting that you are utterly clueless about what you are talking about.

Ah, no, Franko, we are quite capable of detecting your utter cluelessness, thank you.

Ahhh yes, 2 + 2 = 4 is incorrect, but you can’t explain why?

Now what are you blithering about?

Kind of like an A-Theist version of the emperor’s new clothes? Ahhh, CWL, if only us Theists and Deists were as smart as you, then perhaps we would be able to perceive the emperor’s new clothes, and the invisible flaws you perceive in valid syllogisms.

You have never produced a valid syllogism, Franko darling. Your sillygisms run like this:

Flour is a white dust.
Bread is made of flour.
Therefore bread is a white dust.

That's the fallacy of composition for you.

Gravitons are bound by the laws of Gravity (Gravity being one of the 4 forces making up TLOP).

Bleah. Gravitons aren't bound by the law of Gravity. They're the (theoretical) mediating particle for the gravitational force.

“free willy” is the “god” of A-Theism.

Yes, well, since "A-Theism" is your personal religion, Franko, you can make it anything you choose.

All devout A-Theists pay homage to this “god” even though many A-Theists have been so thoroughly brainwashed they do not realize it. Without “free willy” there is no A-Theism.

Well, that's nice, Franko dear. Have you finished now?

Okay, so now YOU = CAR

Eh?

and TLOP = YOU

I'm the laws of physics? Or is it just CWL who is the laws of physics?

and just like YOU, TLOP is not disputing that She is “more conscious” then YOU.

What are you talking about, Franko?

TLOP is controlling you

This is, to the best of our scientific understanding, simply untrue. Perhaps you'd care to present some evidence for this claim? Or perhaps you'd rather simply present your sillygisms again.

You think you are using “free will” to respond to these posts?

Yes.

If that’s the case, then how come your responses are so predictable?

That's because there's an elephant in your refrigerator.

You were an A-Theist yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that?

And once again Franko shows his unerring ability to predict things that have already happened. Well, actually, even that goes wrong a lot of the time.

It seems to me that the present is based on the past

Yes. So?

yet YOU and TRICKY STILL want to claim that Determinism is False … ?

Yes. And CWL and Tricky are correct. Predict the time of breakdown of a tritium atom, Franko dear. Whenever you're ready.

TLOP is controlling your actions to a far greater degree than YOU are controlling your CAR’s actions, so how can you make this claim?

Perhaps they can make the claim because they have free will? Or perhaps it's because your statement is complete nonsense?

If YOU need to be more conscious then CAR then how on Earth can TLOP be less conscious than YOU, yet control you better and more completely then YOU control CAR?

Simple. The laws of physics are not conscious. The laws of physics do not control anything.

Can you explain that to us, because it doesn’t make ANY sense what-so-ever.

Done.

It sounds like you are claiming that Your CAR (a part of TLOP)

A car is a physical object, Franko. The laws of physics are a set of mathematical equations. Car. Equations. Car. Equations. Can you see the difference? You can kick one of them. The other one you have to write down in a book first, and even then all you can kick is the book.

is actually more conscious then YOU are

A car, indeed, a spark plug or mudflap is likely more conscious than you, Franko. However, no-one else has ever suggested that a car is conscious at all.

and when you are driving your CAR, it is actually the CAR controlling YOU.

No.

How is what you are claiming ANY different?

Well, what we are saying actually makes sense and is almost certainly correct, while what you are saying is akin to the random babbling of a low-grade Markov-chain sentence generator. Is that sufficient difference for you?

Well I guess you never really prove anything – do you?

Nope. We can falsify claims. We can support claims. Proof is for mathematicians.

You just go with what your best evidence and Logic tell you.

Blink. Well, yes. That's correct. Who are you, and what have you done with Franko?

The main difference between Me and You

Hmm. Will this be ironic or just stupid?

is that you just make up evidence (or your own “logic”) when you don’t like the Truth in reality.

Both!

Like all A-Theist you fear the Truth.

Franko, I have a big bowl of the Truth for breakfast every morning. I don't fear the Truth. The Truth is a cuddly puppy. It will poop in your shoes if you make unsupported claims, though. Better check your sneakers before you put them on tomorrow.

Because I’ve never observed any entity more powerful then

THAN. THAN. Look it up, Franko. THEN and THAN are not the same word.

Her.

Or indeed less powerful. Or as powerful. Any conclusion can be reached from a false premise, particularly if your logic is sufficiently twisted.

Ergo, She is the most powerful entity that I have evidence for.

Ah. And what exactly would this evidence be again? I don't recall you ever mentioning it before.

Edited to add an of.

 

[CWL]

CWL, how did you observe that TLOP is non-conscious? What is the evidence of which you speak for this claim? What is your evidence for magic “free will” powers?

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

Why didn't you respond to my last post? Why do you repeatedly refuse to explain your beliefs A-Theist? Why are you trolling on this forum? Why don't you just go back to infidels.org where you belong?

Actually I did respond to your little strawmen here. I thought I would avoid cross posting. You managed to see my reply in the other thread just fine. Doesn't it count in this thread?

Never mind. You have obviously reset.

Obviously you have no intention of proving any of your absurd claims, and you are just here to spam us with your ridiculous double standards and obvious logical contradictions.

Says the guy who claims to a Goddess who is "the most powerful entity that I have evidence for". Present the evidence in question instead of just talking about it. Afraid it doesn't hold water?

 

[CWL]

CWL, how did you observe that TLOP is non-conscious? What is the evidence of which you speak for this claim? What is your evidence for magic “free will” powers?

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

Why didn't you respond to my last post? Why do you repeatedly refuse to explain your beliefs A-Theist? Why are you trolling on this forum? Why don't you just go back to infidels.org where you belong?

Obviously you have no intention of proving any of your absurd claims, and you are just here to spam us with your ridiculous double standards and obvious logical contradictions.

I don't mind pointing out what a religious fanatic you are CWL/Trixy/Pixy.

Are we back to the old deleting-reposting-deleting-reposting routine now?

That is a sure tell-tale sign that you have no more arguments.

No matter. I am done playing BOBS for today.

See you around your Holiness. Tell your evidence for the Logical Goddess I said "Hi".

 

[Franko]

CWL:

Are we back to the old deleting-reposting-deleting-reposting routine now?

That is a sure tell-tale sign that you have no more arguments.

Since its been over a year, and you STILL haven’t presented ANY evidence for your religious beliefs, and since you post NOTHING but the same spam over and over again, what do you want me to say? If you have an actual argument for your religious beliefs – some evidence – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you, but your spam doesn’t really require anything other than me restating the obvious. I realize you don’t like your hypocrisy exposed CWL, perhaps you should run along then? I honestly don’t know why you keep non-responding to all of my posts?

Actually, I do know why … It’s because you are a severely brainwashed religious fanatic with no evidence for his beliefs.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
CWL, brainwashed A-Theist: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

 

[PixyMisa]

Are we back to the old deleting-reposting-deleting-reposting routine now?

I wondered why I couldn't respond to that one. And then it wasn't there.

That is a sure tell-tale sign that you have no more arguments.

Ayup.

No matter. I am done playing BOBS for today.

Me too. I'll be back when he resets himself. Or maybe not. When is BOBS 2.0 due out? Or even 1.1?

 

[PixyMisa]

Since its been over a year

Less than two months for me. But you don't seem to be talking to me any more.

and you STILL haven’t presented ANY evidence for your religious beliefs

What relgious beliefs. Franko, please sit down, as this may come as a nasty shock. Atheists do not have any religious beliefs.

and since you post NOTHING but the same spam over and over again

Unlike, say, you, for example, Franko, the paragon of innovation and information.

what do you want me to say?

Something coherent, perhaps?

If you have an actual argument for your religious beliefs

Hard to argue for religious beliefs when you have none.

some evidence

Hard to present evidence for beliefs you don't have.

I’ll be happy to discuss it with you, but your spam doesn’t really require anything other than me restating the obvious.

Franko, you have never stated the obvious. You have stated the obviously false, and the obviously incoherent, but never the obvious.

I realize you don’t like your hypocrisy exposed CWL

Hardly germane, since no such thing has happened.

perhaps you should run along then?

His choice, since he has free will.

I honestly don’t know why you keep non-responding to all of my posts?

Because you're wrong? Because you're flagrantly, aggressively, hilariously wrong?

Actually, I do know why … It’s because you are a severely brainwashed religious fanatic with no evidence for his beliefs.

Mirror, mirror, teapot and kettle.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?

Six billion people.

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?

Never claimed that. What is your evidence for it's existence?

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

BZZT! I'm sorry, the answer is: you have no evidence whatsoever, and cannot even put together a syllogism after five thousand attempts. You lose 10 points, bringing your score to an even negative one hundred and fifty. Next question:

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

BZZZT! No, I'm sorry, the answer is: you have none, so you will redefine the question and provide a compactified pair of sillygisms that have no bearing on the matter anyway. That puts you at, let's see, minus one hundred and sixty. Let's take it to the audience!

Presenter: OK folks, what's it to be?
Audience: THE ELEPHANTS' LATRINE! THE LATRINE!
Presenter: The people, they have spoke. The little-known Elephants' Latrine is located conveniently close to the Elephants' Burial Ground - though downwind of course - and is, uh, visited by over sixty thousand elephants on a daily basis. You can either clean the latrine daily for a month - with your own toothbrush - or bet your life against what's in this box. What's it to be?
Audience: THE LATRINE! NO, THE BOX!
Presenter: I'll give you thirty seconds to think. While you're thinking, I'll play this soothing music:

AND IIIIIII WILLL ALWAYYS LOVE YOOOOOO...