Regarding Franko...

[Franko]

Yes, even if you don't know why you preferred it. Free will in action.

Tricky just explain how NOT knowing the correct answer means you actually know the correct answer?

You don’t know why he “choose” what he did … how does that make it definitely “free will”?

You could have just as easily said that he picked the number he did because “god” made him do it.

So why the double standard (yet again)???

 

[alfaniner]

How nice that I don't have to read Franko's/wraith's posts, as someone will undoubtedly quote his most ridiculous sayings. What I had read before putting them on ignore was the same thing repeated over and over again redundantly. It's like reading the same word over and over in a magazine. Pretty soon it loses all meaning and just becomes a jumble of heiroglyphics. So much for TLOP.

However, I am inspired to try a little experiment. I thought about the "choose a number from 1-100" question and have a theory I'd like to check out. I want to ask 100 or so different people to "Choose a number between 1 and 100" (using that exact quote every time). I am betting that the numbers will fall in a certain range and not spread evenly over the 98 available ("between" means 1 and 100 are excluded!)

My guess is that the most common ranges will be in the 30's and the 60's, with the most common choice being 37. Why? I will go through the thought processes that may occur instantaneously while making a decision. (Assuming I was the one asked......

1. You gave me a range between 1 and 100. With such a wide range, I don't want to choose from the lower end as I had probably used those numbers before if I had the question with a 1-20 or 1-50 range.

2. Even numbers don't seem "random" enough.

3. 40's and 50's are too "in the middle". You said "between" but that doesn't mean I want to go right in the middle. I have to fool you a little bit and go slightly outside of that range (hence the 30's and 60's).

4. 70 and up seems a little high because it seems like I had to think too long about the answer (I had choose and discard all the lower ranges.)

5. So I settle on something not too high, not too low, not in the middle, that's an odd number.

I don't think that the process of a person choosing a number is random at all. There are many factors that come into play. Whether this proves anything about free will or just human nature, I think it will be fun to see the results. I'll also record age and gender with their guesses. It's also important that each person be asked individually, i.e. not ask one of a group, then the next (I'd never choose the same number as the person next to me, unless it's done privately, as in written).

(Changed "from 1 to 100" to "between 1 and 100")

 

[Legallee Insane]

What Franko thinks that I think:
Because I am an atheist Franko assumes that I believe that the fact that there is no evidence for god proves that there is no god. He also assumes that I believe that lack of evidence for free will means that it must exist.

What I think:
I believe that there is no way of proving, one way or the other, if god exists, but it is my personal belief that he does not. It is partially bases on lack of evidence and partially based on experiences.

I believe that the concept of what "free will" is changes from person to person. My concept of "free will" is my ability to make choices for myself that will affect my actions and their consequent outcome. Franko's apparent concept of "free will" is whether or not things are predetermined (which he apparently believes they are). From that perspective I also have to take up an agnostic standpoint, as I believe that we truly have no way of knowing for sure.


Franko, it would be greatly appreciated if, instead of preaching about how wrong everyone else is, you could respect people's beliefs, not make assumptions about other people's beliefs, and perhaps try to argue (not preach) a point about what makes you think you are right.

 

[The Fool]

I asked Franko


Franko.
Remind me...Is spin=2 male or female. Is a graviton with spin=2 a little boy Graviton or a little Girl Graviton? Are girl gravitons pink? No, sorry, ignore that last question, I was just being silly......But I would like to know how to sex a graviton, so what is it? spin=2 is male or female?


Franko Replied with

What ... you mean Stimpson didn't know the answer??? Why would you expect me to know Fool -- I'm just a VB programmer (hehe)? Stimpson is the one who spent 8 years in the seminary learning the divine rights of the priestly class. If he can't help you, then I sure can't.

Frank....
I'm disappointed that you won't or can't answer this question. We've got a long road ahead frank, this is not a good start. You collapsed into a sobbing heap when you could not explain your contradictory position on free will , Eventually throwing a huge tantrum and claiming youe explanation for the conradiction is a "secret" that you are "physically prevented" from divulging.....(ya just gotta laugh eh?)

I hope your not just going to go belly up on this one too?
Is spin=2 a little boy graviton or a little girl graviton?

 

[Franko]

Legally-Insane,

Well like all A-Theists I find your “mind reading powers” unimpressive to say the least …

What Franko thinks that I think:
Because I am an atheist Franko assumes that I believe that the fact that there is no evidence for god proves that there is no god. He also assumes that I believe that lack of evidence for free will means that it must exist.

What I think:
I believe that there is no way of proving, one way or the other, if god exists, but it is my personal belief that he does not. It is partially bases on lack of evidence and partially based on experiences.

Either your “experiences” are evidence, or they are not.

SO what you are Really saying is it is my personal belief that he [Goddess] does not [exist]; and I have no evidence for this belief – just “experiences”

Yeah … very “sighantific” of you …

I believe that the concept of what "free will" is changes from person to person.

Kind of like people’s concept of “god” changes from person to person?

My concept of "free will" is my ability to make choices for myself that will affect my actions and their consequent outcome.

You are an Algorithm. You obey the laws of Physics. You don’t have magic powers, and you can’t produce ANY evidence that you have magic powers. If you are claiming you can do it, then I will personally help you fill out your application for Randi’s Million.

Franko's apparent concept of "free will" is whether or not things are predetermined (which he apparently believes they are). From that perspective I also have to take up an agnostic standpoint, as I believe that we truly have no way of knowing for sure.

How about we consult the evidence?

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Franko, it would be greatly appreciated if, instead of preaching about how wrong everyone else is, you could respect people's beliefs, not make assumptions about other people's beliefs, and perhaps try to argue (not preach) a point about what makes you think you are right.

How about if I do a little from column A, and a little from column B???

No seriously Graviton, it's my experience that A-Theists ALWAYS end up getting pissed off at me, I just try and expedite the process by giving them a reason from the get-go. Believe me, I may only be a figment of your imagination, but even I get bored hearing you think about that Atoms obey TLOP over and over again ...

 

[Legallee Insane]

Franko, I don't suppose you've ever bothered to really think about this but in some of your statements you claim TLOP to be the "atheist version of god" or something to that effect.

Let's just think about this..... that's right..... think a little harder..... bingo:
You spend more time arguing that the "atheist god" exists than you do arguing that the god (sorry, goddess) you believe in exists.

 

[Franko]

Let's just think about this..... that's right..... think a little harder..... bingo:
You spend more time arguing that the "atheist god" exists than you do arguing that the god (sorry, goddess) you believe in exists.

Actually I don’t “think” at all – only YOU do. I am just a figment of Your imagination, I don’t even exist, so “the Goddess” is just a figment of a figment of your imagination.

Look at the bright side … if Solipsism is True, then at least you have your Free Will. Unfortunately none of us will, but at least you’ll have it!

 

[Legallee Insane]

Franko:
Actually I don’t “think” at all – only YOU do. I am just a figment of Your imagination, I don’t even exist, so “the Goddess” is just a figment of a figment of your imagination.

Look at the bright side … if Solipsism is True, then at least you have your Free Will. Unfortunately none of us will, but at least you’ll have it!

I hope that wasn't meant to be an intelligent post. How many people on this forum do you think would agree that none of us actually think? Sure, we wish you were a figment of our imagination, but unfortunately we all have read your constant über-babble.

 

[Franko]

I hope that wasn't meant to be an intelligent post. How many people on this forum do you think would agree that none of us actually think?

Well considering that the person reading this post this very instant is the only conscious entity to actually exist, I would venture to guess ONE.

Sure, we wish you were a figment of our imagination, but unfortunately we all have read your constant über-babble.

There is no “we” if you want to be perfectly honest with yourself; furthermore, it wasn’t really “my” constant uber-babble it was just YOU imagining “my” constant uber-babble. … Ahhh, blame “me” what do I care? … I don’t even exist you nitwit!

 

[wraith]

Hey Wraith …

An important thing you have to keep in mind when you debate Pixy is that Pixy has a non-standard (A-Theist) definition of the term “Truth”.

To Pixy, a thing doesn’t just need to be TRUE to be TRUE, it also has to be “Useful”. In other words, if something is TRUE, but Pixy doesn’t consider it “Useful”, then Pixy considers it FALSE.

In other words Pixy is NOTHING more than a dogmatic Religious Fanatic, but I have the feeling you already knew that …

haha!

Frank, it's reassuring when another mind thinks the same thing

oh! congrats on passing the 5000 mark!

 

[The Fool]

I asked Franko


Franko.
Remind me...Is spin=2 male or female. Is a graviton with spin=2 a little boy Graviton or a little Girl Graviton? Are girl gravitons pink? No, sorry, ignore that last question, I was just being silly......But I would like to know how to sex a graviton, so what is it? spin=2 is male or female?


Franko Replied with

What ... you mean Stimpson didn't know the answer??? Why would you expect me to know Fool -- I'm just a VB programmer (hehe)? Stimpson is the one who spent 8 years in the seminary learning the divine rights of the priestly class. If he can't help you, then I sure can't.

Frank....
I'm disappointed that you won't or can't answer this question. We've got a long road ahead frank, this is not a good start. You collapsed into a sobbing heap when you could not explain your contradictory position on free will , Eventually throwing a huge tantrum and claiming youe explanation for the conradiction is a "secret" that you are "physically prevented" from divulging.....(ya just gotta laugh eh?)

I hope your not just going to go belly up on this one too?
Is spin=2 a little boy graviton or a little girl graviton?

crickets are chirping on this one frank?
Don't you even have time to cut-n-paste your standard "I don't even exist" question avoider?

 

[Franko]

You expect me to read that entire long repetitious rant, quote-fabricating A-Theist sock-puppet?

Is it possible you boil what ever you are whining about down to a sentence or two?

If not, just start another thread about me.

 

[neutrino_cannon]

The problem with us

Franko, as I see it, the problem is that your ideas are simply too advanced for us A-theists. We have no free-willy, and don't talk to the godde$$$$$$$$.





I'm not really sure what to say, I geuss the interplay between you and the rest of the forum is proof that while some veiws of the universe are not ireconsilable, some of their owners are.

 

[wraith]

Yes, even if you don't know why you preferred it. Free will in action.

I was obeying TLOP actually

No, every action is not spontaneous. Some are carefully reasoned. But you have demonstrated that some of your actions are spontaneous. As I have said before, the purpose of this little exercise was to demonstrate the relatively rare situation where free will does not use MPB. However, even if you are using MPB, you can still be spontaneous and do something unpredictable. The "Fork of Doom" scenario demonstrates this.

Me picking a number between 1 and 100 wasnt "carefully reasoned"
I also didnt see any number being a more "beneficial" number than another

Fork of doom?
Just what are you on this morning?

TLOP include both randomness and non-randomness. You are not operating outside TLOP if you do something completely random (such as choose a number between 1 and 100). TLOP are quite capable of dealing with random data, as it does with certain aspects of quantum mechanics. For someone who holds such high esteem for TLOP, you give them too little credit.

I obeyed TLOP.
33 was selected.
No number was more "beneficial" than another. You claim that QM is the reason for this "random" decision.
Just when do you at random run red lights?
Or wear a dress to work?

Hey, I'm not judgmental, wraith. If it turns you on to imagine PixyMisa as a woman, then go for it. Twenty is a very itchy age.

yeah I know

No, that is only true for the rare non-MPB case of free will. Every decision you make gives evidence for free will. Some are spontaneous, some use MPB. Some are smart. Some are dumb. The only common factor is that they are all your decisions.

My decisions are based on experiences. There is no free-will.

 

[Tricky]

I was obeying TLOP actually

Fair enough. Now all you have to do is show how TLOP prohibit free will. That's the toughie.

Me picking a number between 1 and 100 wasnt "carefully reasoned"
I also didnt see any number being a more "beneficial" number than another

My point exactly. You can make a decision even when you don't "think" about it. By your own admission, no MPB was involved.

Fork of doom?
Just what are you on this morning?

You've discussed this with PixyMisa. Surely you remember him?

I obeyed TLOP.
33 was selected.
No number was more "beneficial" than another. You claim that QM is the reason for this "random" decision.

I do not claim that QM is the reason for the decision. I only use QM to show that TLOP are not deterministic. If TLOP allows some things to be non-deterministic, why not others?

Just when do you at random run red lights?
Or wear a dress to work?

Did you know that in the US, you have run a red light if you are still in the intersection when it turns red? Sometimes when a light turns yellow, one has to make a snap judgment as to whether or not to try to stop quickly or go through the intersection. Of course, usually one tries to evaluate the situation before making a decision, but sometimes it happens too fast, and one may wind up running the red light (because the car is still in the intersection) without meaning to. So I very rarely, run red lights at random, but I have before. You probably have too. This is another of those rare situations where free will is different from MPB.

My decisions are based on experiences. There is no free-will.

And what "experience" was your decision to pick 33 based on? Free will wins again.

 

[Franko]

Trickster (deceitful A-Theist):

Fair enough. Now all you have to do is show how TLOP prohibits free will. That's the toughie.

By what rule of Logic do I have to prove that YOUR GOD ("Free willy") DOES NOT EXIST?

You are the one CLAIMING "free will" Tricky A-Theist -- You make the claim -- you PROVE the claim!

You do understand how Logic is suppose to work -- don't you hypocrite-boy???

 

[Tricky]

By what rule of Logic do I have to prove that YOUR GOD ("Free willy") DOES NOT EXIST?

You are the one CLAIMING "free will" Tricky A-Theist -- You make the claim -- you PROVE the claim!

You do understand how Logic is suppose to work -- don't you hypocrite-boy???

Simmer down, youngun.

 

[Franko]

hehehe! Are you using the Titanpout defense of A-Theism now Tricky? At least he posted pics of naked women ...

Trickster (deceitful A-Theist):

Fair enough. Now all you have to do is show how TLOP prohibits free will. That's the toughie.

By what rule of Logic do I have to prove that YOUR GOD ("Free willy") DOES NOT EXIST?

You are the one CLAIMING "free will" Tricky A-Theist -- You make the claim -- you PROVE the claim!

You do understand how Logic is suppose to work -- don't you hypocrite-boy???

So your brain is made of chemicals and nothing more -- correct materialist?

Do chemicals have "free will" Tricky?

 

[wraith]

Fair enough. Now all you have to do is show how TLOP prohibit free will. That's the toughie.

As tough as showing the moon orbiting the earth?
Or some leaves falling off a tree?

My point exactly. You can make a decision even when you don't "think" about it. By your own admission, no MPB was involved.

?
My decesion was to answer your question. When you said to pick a number between 1-100, I was thinking "pick a number from 1 - 100". 33 was the first number. Maybe I saw it on the steet

You claim this to be evidence of free-will?
Randomness = free will?

You've discussed this with PixyMisa. Surely you remember him?

I remember him mentioning something about this "fork of doom". I skipped that crap

maybe you can explain it to me?

I do not claim that QM is the reason for the decision. I only use QM to show that TLOP are not deterministic. If TLOP allows some things to be non-deterministic, why not others?

again
randomness = free-will?

Did you know that in the US, you have run a red light if you are still in the intersection when it turns red? Sometimes when a light turns yellow, one has to make a snap judgment as to whether or not to try to stop quickly or go through the intersection. Of course, usually one tries to evaluate the situation before making a decision, but sometimes it happens too fast, and one may wind up running the red light (because the car is still in the intersection) without meaning to. So I very rarely, run red lights at random, but I have before. You probably have too. This is another of those rare situations where free will is different from MPB.

HEY!?!?!?!
You run red lights at random?
Where is the random element in the above post?

And what "experience" was your decision to pick 33 based on? Free will wins again.

My history made me select 33.
Would you agree?

You said "choose a number between 1 and 100". I saw a benefit in doing so. My head scanned the numbers 1 to 100. 33 was the one that I though of first. It felt good. I went with it.

 

[Franko]

Did anyone see South Park last night?

Cartman: The only thing that will teach parents a lesson is if they understand that there are consequences for their actions!

hehehe! That Fat little bastard cracks me up!