Regarding Franko...

[Franko]

Tricky:

your belief that everything can be reduced down to True and False is patently ridiculous. Certainly you can code many things into binary responses, but you need a large number of these binary numbers in order to ascertain anything. Recalling the fuzzy logic discussion of a couple of days ago, how would a single binary response answer the question, "Is Joe tall?".

If you can’t phrase the question (Is Joe Tall?) as a single binary statement what makes you assume it can be answered with a single binary option?

Lets like saying what is 2 + 2 equal to, and then qualifying by stating that you are limited in your choice of answers to 0 or 1.

You would have to have a lot of binary questions, like "is Joe taller than Dan"? Is Joe taller than Pete? etc.

Yes, and recall that I already mentioned Relativity could also be (easily) encoded into a binary system.

Though the answer to each of these questions might be a yes/no response (assuming you have the ability to measure height perfectly. Can't have any ties)

So you are already conceding that you are wrong in your own post.

BTW, why can’t you have any ties regarding height? Are you saying that it is impossible that the 2 heights are equal? That would depend on your units of measurement – wouldn’t it?

the answer to the question requires a large set of binary responses. More than two.

So why would you try to limit the answer to only ONE binary response if you have already acknowledged that it would require MORE than one? … Ohhh … that’s right!!! … it’s because you don’t want there to be a “God” – isn’t it?

You would then have to derive a mean height from these numbers such that you could see if Joe was taller than the mean (or whatever number you have designated as "tall".)
So you cannot answer the question "Is Joe Tall" by a true/false response.

You’re wrong Trixy.

YOU provide me with an objective definition of “Tall”, and I will objectively tell you who is “Tall” and who is not. In fact, I wouldn’t even need to tell you, you give me an objective definition of “Tall”, and I can write a computer program that will tell you.

There are a number of other things you believe with no evidence, and I can list a few if you like.

No, I like it a lot better when you make vague unsupported accusations regarding your opinions of imaginary contradictions in my beliefs. It better demonstrates your religious fanaticism when you repeatedly rely on logically fallacious tactics.

) What is your evidence for “free will”? Answer: NONE (Tricky has NO evidence for this belief, so NO EVIDENCE = TRUE).
Tricky:
I've shown you the evidence time and time again, and even designed an experiment whereby you chould gather evidence of your own. But you knew this.

Like I said: Tricky A-Theists Evidence = NONE.

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP.

2) What is your evidence that no “god” exist? Answer: NONE (Tricky has NO evidence for this belief so NO EVIDENCE = FALSE).

Tricky:
I say there is no evidence that god exists. How in the world am I to provide evidence of no evidence? But you knew this.

Yeah, it would be kind of like trying to prove that coins ALWAYS land Tails up when you flip them, because there is “no evidence” that they will land Heads up.

Like I said: Tricky A-Theists Evidence = NONE.

 

[wraith]

You really don't like answering direct questions, do you? OK, here we go again:
I believe I have free will. If there is neither free will nor the illusion of free will, what is it that I believe I have?

Thats just it. You have convinced yourself that 4 sided tris exist.
You believe that you have this so called free-will.
To me, you have a belief in a 4 sided-tri

No. Non-determinism is a seperate issue. And as I have noted, it is a well-established part of the laws of physics.

Yes, we have all seen QM in action when you "randomly" run red lights

Having memory problems again? I have never, not once in my life, run a red light. Unlike you, Mister Hardened Criminal.

Oh, and you still don't know what random means.

Do you want to know why?
It's called MPB.
It's called logic.

No magic here Picks

I'm not sure that the argument of free will is related to the functioning of consciousness. I would think it works the other way around.

So if you had no consciousness, would you still think that you have "free-will"?????


I say MPB woman aka logic

Everything I have said - except for the bunnies - could be independently verified if you ever cared to learn anything. Since you don't, you will remain a treasured anti-knowledge resource. If your country ever goes to war against a nation with any semblance of civilisation or learning, they may drop you in beforehand to paralyse the intellectuals with your barrage of antifacts and illogic.

thats great Pix

I can choose. Choices lead to more choices. Ta da. Approximately infinitely many options.

Your "choices" dont just pop into your head willy nilly.
Are your "choices" based on how YOU interpret information?
Just how often do you use "free-will" to ask someone to tie up your shoe laces?

Err, that's it, really. I obey the laws of physics, and have approximately infinitely many options. (Actually, the number is almost certainly finite, but is certainly uncountable.)

No. You cant have both.
You cant obey something and have "choice."

You have totally convinced yourself that you can.
The bug in your system I think

wraith: ...what makes the atoms in your brain more special in their behaviour that gives you more "free-will" than the moon?

Pix: The atoms are the same. The arrangement is different.

ahhh, right...
care to explain it in more detail?

True enough. But we can also talk about nuclear fusion if you like. The carbon cycle. No, the other carbon cycle.

So explain how the mind works. Explain how matter creates consciousness.

wraith: So is this system of information independent from the atoms?

Pix: no.

Again, you cant have both
What is something that obeys something and has "choice"

wraith: It seems to me that you want both...sorry Mista....cant do that

Pix: Why not? I've been entirely successful at having free will and obeying the laws of physics so far.

Yeah, the moon "chooses" its orbit aswell...

 

[wraith]

Here is some of the evidence

wraith said
I chose 33. No particular reason

Since I define free will as the ability to choose between availble, perceivable options, this is evidence for free will. This experiment is repeatable by others. Pick a number between 1 and 100. If you can do that, you have free will.

Twix bar, youre question was: "choose a number between 1 and 100"

The benefit was to actually answer your question. As I said before, 33 was the number that I "plucked."
I dont see it as being a more sexier number than lets say, 70. Well.....come to think of it
If I said to you "whats the first thing that comes to your head when I say that Pixy is a man, pretending to be a woman."

Are you going to claim that your initial thought is free-will in action?

 

[urstardust]

Wanko: Yeah, the moon "chooses" its orbit aswell...

The moon chooses it's own orbit? So the moon makes it's own chooses? Well we should make sure now too piss off the MOON!
The moon might choose to orbit 2 inchs a earth away each year?

BTW, I'm IWI again...

 

[wraith]

urstardust

you might want to read that again

 

[MRC_Hans]

If I said to you "whats the first thing that comes to your head when I say that Pixy is a man, pretending to be a woman."

The first thing that comes into my mind is that you are a liar. PM has never claimed to be a woman. Do you pretend to be a wraith?

What has this to do with free will? We all percieve free will (with you as a possible exception), we all know that if we dont make careful choices, we will run into trouble.

You claim there is no free will, but your evidence has been refuted. You may not understand or accept the counter arguments, but thats the hazards of debate. Now, what are you gonna do about it?

1) Present new arguments?

2) Rest your case (agree to disagree)?

3) Repost your old argument (and repost, and repost, and repost ..)?

Hans

 

[wraith]

The first thing that comes into my mind is that you are a liar. PM has never claimed to be a woman. Do you pretend to be a wraith?

OH, I dont pretend

What has this to do with free will?

Ask Tricky...
this is apparently free-willy in action

We all percieve free will (with you as a possible exception), we all know that if we dont make careful choices, we will run into trouble.

You claim there is no free will, but your evidence has been refuted. You may not understand or accept the counter arguments, but thats the hazards of debate. Now, what are you gonna do about it?

1) Present new arguments?

2) Rest your case (agree to disagree)?

3) Repost your old argument (and repost, and repost, and repost ..)?

Counter-arguments?
I dont think so....

 

[MRC_Hans]

OH, I dont pretend

wraith n.
1) An apparition of a living person that appears as a portent just before that person's death.

2) The ghost of a dead person.

3) Something shadowy and insubstantial.

---- Well, I guess 3) fits OK

Counter-arguments?
I dont think so....

I didnt expect so .....

Hans

 

[wraith]

nice web page by the way pops
haha

hell, I didnt know that you were that old


you like aircraft too hey?
I guess youre not all that bad.......for an amateur

 

[MRC_Hans]

Thanks.

Mmm, I take it you're more into jet sims?

Hans

 

[wraith]

I like the real thing myself


but simulators are the next best thing

 

[Tricky]

Twix bar, youre question was: "choose a number between 1 and 100"

The benefit was to actually answer your question. As I said before, 33 was the number that I "plucked."

Very good, wraith. You have correctly identified that you made at least two decisions. As I mentioned earlier, this example was given to show the difference in the MPB type of free will, versus free will with no MPB. The decision to pick a number probably had an MPB element. It might have been a wish to be seen as amicable. It might have been curiosity as to what I was going to do with it. Actually, I considered that you might refuse to pick a number and then your free will would have thwarted my experiment. However, you came through like a champ.

Your second decision was to pick the number 33, and you even admitted you didn't know why. Well my friend, if YOU don't know why, how can you possibly hypothesize some other entity that not only knows you better than you know yourself, but is able to "force" you to pick a certain number without giving you a clue why? This is the free will decision that occurred without any MPB input, illustrating a fairly minor difference between free will and MPB. Apart from that, they are virtually identical.

I dont see it as being a more sexier number than lets say, 70. Well.....come to think of it

So what you are saying is you still can't rationalize why you would pick a certain number. Don't try. It was essentially random. ("More sexier"? )

If I said to you "whats the first thing that comes to your head when I say that Pixy is a man, pretending to be a woman."

Calm down, hormone boy. You're not likely to impress any women here unless you stop talking gibberish. Misa is probably just using his favorite Anime character as an icon. He has already disclosed his gender and has never claimed to be female. The fact that you cannot look at that icon without having carnal thoughts says more about you than him.

But I hope you had a good (and safe) birthday party.

Are you going to claim that your initial thought is free-will in action?

I'm claiming every decision you make is free will in action, including the first thing that pops into your head. Some of your free will actions involve thought and careful selection (MPB) and some are apparently random (non-MPB), but both are free will.

 

[PixyMisa]

Thats just it. You have convinced yourself that 4 sided tris exist.
You believe that you have this so called free-will.
To me, you have a belief in a 4 sided-tri

Yes, you have blithered about this before. So, what is it that I think I have, wraith? I observe that I have free will. What am I observing?

Yes, we have all seen QM in action when you "randomly" run red lights

I have never once run a red light.

Do you want to know why?
It's called MPB.

And we have established that MPB is free will.

It's called logic.

Logic? You have never once used logic.

No magic here Picks

No. But you're wrong. And not understanding logic, you are unable to work out why you are wrong. Shall I tell you?

So if you had no consciousness, would you still think that you have "free-will"?

Do you buy your stupid questions cheap by the case-load? If I didn't have consciousness, I wouldn't think anything. And you have now reversed your position. Which is it?

I say MPB woman

Which is free will, as has been demonstrated here.

aka logic

Yes, I've noticed you mistreat words that way before.

thats great Pix

Shrug.

Your "choices" dont just pop into your head willy nilly.

Do you know what "willy nilly" means?

Are your "choices" based on how YOU interpret information?

Yes. No. Maybe.

Just how often do you use "free-will" to ask someone to tie up your shoe laces?

Oh, it's been several minutes at least.

No. You cant have both.

Why not?

You cant obey something and have "choice."

Ah. So you choose to misunderstand what it means to obey the laws of physics now. Well, you are still wrong. Obeying the laws of physics allows choice. It doesn't remove it. Nor is there anything that does not obey the laws of physics. But not everything is capable of making choices. You, for example.

You have totally convinced yourself that you can.
The bug in your system I think

Well, I can choose. I have demonstrated this. Everyone except you has demonstrated this. as I have stated, this means that you are a mindless zombie rather than a human. And even your MPB has been shown to be free will. Banana Pancakes and the Fork of Doom, remember?

ahhh, right...
care to explain it in more detail?

Why? If you can't see that the atoms in the brain are arranged diferently to the atoms in the moon, you're a hopeless case as well as a mindless zombie.

So explain how the mind works. Explain how matter creates consciousness.

The brain processes information. Consciousness is an illusion presented by this information processing system. It's the user interface.

Again, you cant have both

Why not?

What is something that obeys something and has "choice"

Me. And all other humans. And bunnies which are not dead. You have to understand what "obey" means, and what the laws of physics are, and as you have demonstrated repeatedly, you do not.

Yeah, the moon "chooses" its orbit aswell...

You may think so. You are wrong. I have explained why the moon does not and cannot choose anything.

 

[PixyMisa]

The first thing that comes into my mind is that you are a liar. PM has never claimed to be a woman.

Hans wins a prize! What would you like, Hans?

Do you pretend to be a wraith?

And RichardR is an anthropomorphic bunny, and arcticpenguin is, well, an arctic penguin.

 

[PixyMisa]

Calm down, hormone boy. You're not likely to impress any women here unless you stop talking gibberish. Misa is probably just using his favorite Anime character as an icon. He has already disclosed his gender and has never claimed to be female.

Tricky wins a prize too! By a staggering coincidence, I just happen to own the pixymisa.com domain

The fact that you cannot look at that icon without having carnal thoughts says more about you than him.

The character in question is ten years old.

 

[hammegk]

Wrong.

Or, maybe you are just a good bs'er?

If a graviton carried an electric charge, that charge must come from somewhere. While charge by itself is not conserved, it is conserved as part of a larger principle known as CPT Invariance. So if a proton emits a charged graviton, either

• Its charge must change - which does not happen.
• Its parity must change - which does not happen, or
• Its movement in time must change direction... which does not happen.[/list=a]If gravitons carried any electrical charge, protons and electrons would no longer necessarily have equal and opposite charges, and matter would disintegrate.

• 
  When will you publish the observations that demonstrated a proton emitting a graviton. Sounds damn interesting; has it been independently verified? How did you demonstrate the charge was greater than 10^-100?
  
  Or maybe you missed observing that it was actually a graviton/anti-graviton pair that conserved all qualities you were examining?

 

[Tricky]

Tricky wins a prize too! By a staggering coincidence, I just happen to own the pixymisa.com domain.

Crunchy Frog?

 

[Franko]

Pixy-w/o-Dixy:
I observe that I have free will. What am I observing?

I observe that I have a "goddess". What am I observing?

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Hammegk,

When will you publish the observations that demonstrated a proton emitting a graviton.

The term "graviton" is defined to be the quanta of the gravitational field. Protons can be observed to be gravitationally active, therefore if gravitons exist at all, protons must emit them. If gravitons do not exist, then of course it is meaningless to talk about their charge.

Sounds damn interesting; has it been independently verified? How did you demonstrate the charge was greater than 10^-100?

Or maybe you missed observing that it was actually a graviton/anti-graviton pair that conserved all qualities you were examining?

Observable properties of the gravitational field directly imply several properties that gravitons must have, if they exist.

1) Zero rest mass, and thus speed of light propagation.

2) Spin 2.

3) The graviton must be its own anti-particle.

4) The graviton must be neutral with respect to the other fundamental forces.

So, unless Franko is just arbitrarily defining the term "graviton" to mean something other than the quanta of the gravitational field, we can be quite certain that he is completely full of crap.

Dr. Stupid

 

[Franko]

Stimpleton:

The term "graviton" is defined to be the quanta of the gravitational field. Protons can be observed to be gravitationally active, therefore if gravitons exist at all, protons must emit them.

What exactly is your evidence for this claim?

… The existence of the “Higg’s Boson”???

Observable properties of the gravitational field directly imply several properties that gravitons must have, if they exist.

1) Zero rest mass, and thus speed of light propagation.

2) Spin 2.

3) The graviton must be its own anti-particle.

4) The graviton must be neutral with respect to the other fundamental forces.

Stimpson you have just clearly demonstrated your utter fanaticism and complete lack of understanding about what you are pretending to be an expert on.

I’m gonna save this post for the future.

So, unless Franko is just arbitrarily defining the term "graviton" to mean something other than the quanta of the gravitational field, we can be quite certain that he is completely full of crap.

A Graviton is the Quanta of the Gravitional field. When two Gravitons entangle (interact) they create a point in Spacetime.