Regarding Franko...

[PixyMisa]

Stimpy, if your pc seems to be suffering from the QM nuttiness inherent in its' hardware, I'd buy another one. Mine works ok and provides absolutely deterministic answers. When its' output goes indeterminate on me I'll get a new one that works.

"Works" is not the same as "fully deterministic". The fact that your computer works for you simply says that the problems of non-deterministic behaviour are too infrequent for you to notice. Chip designers work damn hard to make this so.

If your hardware ( & PixyMisa's & Tricky's) is also having indeterminacy problems, did any of you hurt anyone the last time you randomly ran a red light? Do you often walk into walls? What *are* the symptoms?

What are the symptoms of indeterminacy the human brain?

You, me, this forum, the Web, the Internet, all of human knowledge and achievment. That's about it. If you show any signs of these symptoms, see your family Quantum Mechanic.

 

[The Fool]

Did you actually read the quote and understand it?

You can reach a point where you are "more aware" and make a "choice" which is more of a "choice" compared to choosing what youre going to have for breakfast....


However, youre still bound to Fate

Hey Fool, we can see through your little fireworks display. I know that you hate the idea of Fate...You cling to free-willy like a kid clinging onto his cot when faced with a bed...

well, I'll give you this....you logical deists are persistant. Your lord and master managed to make himself look silly trying to explain this one....In the End he resorted to the "Its a secret" defence. Now his sockpuppet wants to line up for his turn on the spanking plank...

OK wraith.....explain to me the concept of "more aware" how does it differ from "aware" also what is "more of a choice" compared to a choice.... Are you adding yet another version of free will to the ever increasing list..... "semi free will" perhaps......

you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Do you believe people make choices or not? Seems to me to be a simple question....How do you make a choice without free will? If free will does not exist then nothing can be said to be your own choice, nothing

So why then go on about these mysterious things that "you must decide for yourself" or your own version that you now present, different levels of "choices"

You are telling me that you have no free will to chose your breakfast menu...but maybe you can reach some sort of higher level where you do get some sort of choice on more "important" matters? Is this the mysterious secret wraith? that if I become a logical deist I will be able to learn this secret and make my own choices??????

sounds like pretty standard cult stuff to me....inner secrets, higher levels....How much does it cost to go up a level? Do you have to pay in cash or is subservience enough?

 

[hammegk]

"Works" is not the same as "fully deterministic". The fact that your computer works for you simply says that the problems of non-deterministic behaviour are too infrequent for you to notice. Chip designers work damn hard to make this so.What are the symptoms of indeterminacy the human brain?

You, me, this forum, the Web, the Internet, all of human knowledge and achievment. That's about it. If you show any signs of these symptoms, see your family Quantum Mechanic.

See also UCE & PM

quote: UCE
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If TLOP were totally deterministic would we have Free Will?
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PM: I don't know.

quote: UCE
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Since the TLOP are partly non-deterministic is that why we have Free Will i.e. is Free Will dependent on quantum indeterminacy?
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PM: I don't know.

quote: UCE
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If so does this mean that you are saying that consciousness is capable of taking advantage of quantum randomnesss in order to obtain Free Will?
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PM: I don't know. Quantum effects occur in the brain as in all material objects. If consciousness arises from the brain, it is necessarily subject to these quantum effects. Whether and how this is related to consciousness or not has not been shown.

Wouldn't you feel more confident if you just declare yourself an agnostic?

(Unless you have indeterminacy trouble balancing your checkbook -- then you might have reason to accept, and blame, materialism.)

 

[Upchurch]

Wouldn't you feel more confident if you just declare yourself an agnostic?

What does determinicy have to do with the existance of God? Couldn't there be a God and still have a universe with indeterminicy?

Upchurch

 

[thaiboxerken]

Wouldn't you feel more confident if you just declare yourself an agnostic?

(Unless you have indeterminacy trouble balancing your checkbook -- then you might have reason to accept, and blame, materialism.)

Determinacy has nothing to do with the belief in a god or not.

 

[PixyMisa]

Wouldn't you feel more confident if you just declare yourself an agnostic?

No.

Agnosticism is a position on knowledge. I am saying simply that I don't know, not that the answer is unknowable.

 

[jj]

Ohh if you are a hard core fanatical A-Theistic religious nitwit I hope and pray that you will.

The way you speak, you mean "prey", not "pray".

For my opinion of your behavior, see my Avatar.

 

[wraith]

well, I'll give you this....you logical deists are persistant. Your lord and master managed to make himself look silly trying to explain this one....In the End he resorted to the "Its a secret" defence. Now his sockpuppet wants to line up for his turn on the spanking plank...

Im not the one bending over

OK wraith.....explain to me the concept of "more aware" how does it differ from "aware" also what is "more of a choice" compared to a choice.... Are you adding yet another version of free will to the ever increasing list..... "semi free will" perhaps......

No
As I see it, once you perceive how Fate works and give up this imaginary friend of yours aka free-willy, youve come to a fork in the road. By this time, youre sanity has reached a point where you have to make a "choice" (keep in mind, that this choice has been Fated) You have come across a fork in the road. The path that you "choose" (good path or bad path ie Am I sane or insane) is really your "one free-will choice" (which is still governed by Fate...your choice has already been made)

you seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Do you believe people make choices or not? Seems to me to be a simple question....How do you make a choice without free will? If free will does not exist then nothing can be said to be your own choice, nothing

People dont make choices at all...
does 2 + 2 choose to equal 4?
Do you choose to stop at a red light?

You are telling me that you have no free will to chose your breakfast menu...but maybe you can reach some sort of higher level where you do get some sort of choice on more "important" matters? Is this the mysterious secret wraith? that if I become a logical deist I will be able to learn this secret and make my own choices??????

read above chumpy

sounds like pretty standard cult stuff to me....inner secrets, higher levels....How much does it cost to go up a level? Do you have to pay in cash or is subservience enough?

rofl
na
I use a credit card

 

[wraith]

What does determinicy have to do with the existance of God? Couldn't there be a God and still have a universe with indeterminicy?

Upchurch

...and give Evil the chance to reign?
Not on my watch!
muhahaha

 

[MRC_Hans]

...and give Evil the chance to reign?
Not on my watch!

You keep forgetting: It is already predetermined!

MUHAHAHAH

Hans

 

[wraith]

You keep forgetting: It is already predetermined!

MUHAHAHAH

Hans

I forgot?
No, Fate is on my mind all the time....

 

[The Fool]

The path that you "choose" (good path or bad path ie Am I sane or insane) is really your "one free-will choice" (which is still governed by Fate...your choice has already been made)

Sockpuppet.

your lord and master at least required me to look in separate threads to find the inconsistencies. You do me the favor of putting them in the same paragraph.

So you have elected to ignore your lord and masters explanation that it is all a "dark secret" and come out with yet another explanation. This time "one free will choice" actually means "no choice" Why the hell don't you make it easy on everyone and call it your "one no choice" instead... why even use the word choice?

Damn, this is too easy wraith.... I'm glad you don't run a restaurant....

Good morning sir, you choose the steak. You also want the red wine and you don't want desert.

Hang on...don't I get to choose?

of course sir, this is a restaraunt, you choose the steak. You also choose the red wine and you don't want desert.


you insult the intelligence of the people on this forum with such rubbish. I hope for your sake you don't pay too much to go up the levels in the logical Deism cult to find the dark secret. I suspect the dark secret is that the whole thing is a joke....

do you seriously swallow this stuff? pre determined "choices"? I wish I was selling people like you used cars...I could retire.

so, In summary...you are saying that there is no contradiction because when your lord and master uses the terms "free will" and "choice" they do not actually indicate anything that is remotely free or any form of choice? Is that about it?

 

[Aardvark_DK]

You know, Wraith, it might be a good idea if you stopped using the word 'choice' - I'm sure it would clear up a lot of confusion.

Hey, just a suggestion.

 

[CWL]

People dont make choices at all...
does 2 + 2 choose to equal 4?
Do you choose to stop at a red light?

Are you seriously contending that no one ever chooses to run a red light?

Oh... I forgot you are also seriously contending that only theists can act moral and that we are all the spawn of one Progenitor Solipsist now tenderly ruled by a female deity who serves no real purpose as even she is governed by an unexplainable thingy called "Fate".

Very well, carry on...

 

[Franko]

CWL:
Are you seriously contending that no one ever chooses to run a red light?

Not without a good reason they don't .

Not unless they are insane.

But you tell me CWL, how often do you just randomly and uncontrollanly run a red light for no reason? Perhaps you should demonstrate you devotion to A-Theism by doing it more often?

As any "good" A-Theist knows ... There are NO consequences for your actions. Determinism is FALSE -- haven't you heard?

 

[CWL]

Not without a good reason they don't .

Sure. Of course there will be a reason (of some sort). Any sane person "reasons" before making decisions. Notwithstanding some choices will be rather arbitrary.

What particular reason (other than my own whims for the day) did I have for choosing chicken instead of salad for lunch today?

Not unless they are insane.

So, what you are saying is that insane people get "free will" but sane people don't... M'kay.

But you tell me CWL, how often do you just randomly and uncontrollanly run a red light for no reason? Perhaps you should demonstrate you devotion to A-Theism by doing it more often?

My belief that I make my own choices within the available parameters has nothing to do with my doubt as to the existence of a supreme being. There are plenty of theists who share this belief. Anyhow, as I like this life and this world (in sharp contrast to certain pessimistic theists who only regard this existence as a temporary ordeal before their "real existence") I choose to live safe. I also abstain from running red lights out of compassion for other human beings who might be injured if I run a red light (my outstanding humanist moral code thus leads me to the conclusion that running red lights is immoral... ooops and I do this without any "God" being involved ).

As any "good" A-Theist knows ... There are NO consequences for your actions. Determinism is FALSE -- haven't you heard?

As any good humanist (e.g. like Einstein), or any other sane person for that matter, knows there ARE consequences for your actions. Only someone who belives that we are hapless puppets in the hands of "Fate" (and a hapless deity who itself is bound by it) would believe that there are "NO consequences for your actions".

 

[Franko]

CrappyWittleLawyer:

What particular reason (other than my own whims for the day) did I have for choosing chicken instead of salad for lunch today?

When your body senses that it needs certain vitamins or minerals or other arrangements of “matter” it causes you to crave foods that possess those forms of “matter”.

Or are you claiming that you get thirsty of your own “free will”?

I’ll tell you what CWL, why don’t you use your “free will” not to eat or drink ANYTHING this year? Think of all the money you would save!

Franko:
[No one runs read lights without a good reason …] Not unless they are insane.

CWL:
So, what you are saying is that insane people get "free will" but sane people don't... M'kay.

No … I am saying that you have to be Insane to believe that you have “free will”.

As any good humanist … or any other sane person for that matter, knows there ARE consequences for your actions. Only someone who belives that we are hapless puppets in the hands of "Fate" (and a hapless deity who itself is bound by it) would believe that there are "NO consequences for your actions".

So you are TELLING me what I believe now CWL? I guess that is the only way you A-Theists can wage an “honest” debate?

I think you need to do a little reading on the concept of DETERMINISM. Determinism is ALL about Rewards and Punishment for your actions. You are simply clueless, but that does provide a reason for your a-Theism.

 

[PixyMisa]

So you are TELLING me what I believe now CWL? I guess that is the only way you A-Theists can wage an “honest” debate?

I'd say that was at least an 8.5 on the irony meter. What do you think, Bob?

 

[Franko]

Pixydust:

I'd say that was at least an 8.5 on the irony meter. What do you think, Bob?

I guess this is more evidence for your magic "free will" powers, Darling?

The defense of A-Theism you offer seems to be growing weaker and weaker ...

 

[PixyMisa]

I guess this is more evidence for your magic "free will" powers, Darling?

I guess you're still having trouble with this reading stuff, Franko dear.

The defense of A-Theism you offer seems to be growing weaker and weaker ...

Franko, you still haven't told me what A-Theism is! How can I defend this precious A-Theism of yours if you won't tell me what it is?!