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Regarding Franko...

Dear PixyMisa

Thanks for continuing to demonstrate you don't have any position regarding determinism.

(Just another random word set from hammegk. ;) )


And for Tricky

Math. Physics. TLOP. You also remain clueless. Have fun with your non-deterministic QM effect computer. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Dear PixyMisa

hammegk said:
And for Tricky

Math. Physics. TLOP. You also remain clueless. Have fun with your non-deterministic QM effect computer. :rolleyes:

Well, I admit I am not as educated in physics as many here, however I am always willing to learn. If you click that link I provided, you will see that indeed computers do have QM effects. (Either that or it is a gigantic conspiracy by the entire community of physicists).

Sorry, hammy. Science won't go away just because you have closed your eyes and stuck your fingers in your ears.
 
Re: Dear PixyMisa

hammegk said:
Thanks for continuing to demonstrate you don't have any position regarding determinism.
The laws of physics are non-deterministic. This is well established, and is the limit of my position. How these laws relate to consciousness I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
Math. Physics. TLOP. You also remain clueless. Have fun with your non-deterministic QM effect computer.
So, do you deny that QM is non-deterministic? Do you deny that computers are influenced by QM effects? Do you deny that chip manufacturers spend significant amounts of money studying the level of QM-related errors in their products?

Or do you simply perch on your rock in the desert, pointing out the limits of others' knowledge while exhibiting no knowledge at all yourself?
 
Pixy :

I'm having trouble understanding your precise position on free will and determinism.

Remember too that the mind is information, and is one step removed from direct application of the laws of physics.

But the behaviour of the information, according to materialism (and you) is still totally dependent on TLOP, yes?

If TLOP were totally deterministic would we have Free Will?

Since the TLOP are partly non-deterministic is that why we have Free Will i.e. is Free Will dependent on quantum indeterminacy?

If so does this mean that you are saying that consciousness is capable of taking advantage of quantum randomnesss in order to obtain Free Will?

If conciousness is NOT taking advantage of quantum indeterminacy then what is the difference between this situation and totally deterministic laws of physics?

'Free Will' can only mean anything if in a given situation you made the choice 'A', but if that situation could be completely replicated you could have made the choice 'B'. Determinism utterly rules this out. Quantum randomness suggests that you might choose 'A' and you might choose 'B' but that the deciding factor was Random. How does either case allow Free Will?

Contrast the above paragraph with Frankos position (and mine) which states that Free Will can only mean something if a human being also has a soul/god-head/'higher self', and it is the soul which takes advantage of the quantum indeterminacy and CHOOSES 'A' or 'B'.

Whose position makes sense?

:confused:
 
PixyMisa said:
To elaborate slighly:

Some forms of decay do need an external stimulus; the chain reaction in nuclear reactors and nuclear bombs is an example.

Other forms of decay do not need any external stimulus.
 
Whitefork,

PixyMisa, couple questions:

Does the decay of a radioactive atom require some form of activation energy from somewhere else?

No. Here's an example: Carbon 14. This element has 8 protons and 10 neutrons. Neutrons have a higher rest mass than protons, but the repulsive electrostatic potential energy between protons also has mass. In this case, if one of those neutrons spontaneously decays into a proton, electron, and neutrino, then the total combined mass/energy of all of these particles, plus the extra potential energy, will still add up to less than the current rest mass of the nucleus. There is a principle in QM, anything that can happen eventually will. Since this decay can happen, without violating any conservation laws, it does. The half-life is basically just a function of the strengths of the interactions between the relative particles.

If you can completely isolate a given atom from the outside world (which you can't), than, in theory, would it remain in its current quantum state indefinitely?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "outside world". Take a solitary neutron, for example. A neutron all by itself is unstable, because as mentioned above, its rest mass is higher than the combined rest mass of a proton, electron, and neutrino. It will therefore decay into such a triplet, with a half-life of about 15 minutes.

But how does this decay happen? One way to look at it is as an interaction with the vacuum. This example is too complicated, but you can see the basic principle by looking at simple electron excitation states in atoms.

Imagine a Hydrogen atom in its ground state. A photon with just the right energy necessary to kick it into its first excited state comes along, and it absorbs the photon and jumps into its excited state. What happens then? The excited state is unstable. After a very short period of time, the atom emits a photon of the right energy, and drops back to its ground state. This is called spontaneous emission.

But why does this unstable state decay? To understand that, you need to know about stimulated emission. Let's say you've got an atom in its excited state, and you hit it with a photon corresponding to the energy difference between the excited state and the ground state. In this case, the atom drops to its ground state, and emits a second photon of the same energy. That photon will also, incidentally, be in phase with the first one. This is how lasers work.

So, why does spontaneous decay occur? Because what actually happens is a virtual photon appears from the vacuum with the right energy. This virtual photon causes stimulated emission, and then disappears back into the vacuum.

This is the basis of all "spontaneous" decay in QM. Spontaneous decay is essentially a particle interacting with the constantly fluctuating vacuum. So in principle, an unstable particle will still decay, even if cut off from the rest of the World, as long as it is still in the vacuum. Of course, nobody knows of any way to even meaningfully talk about particles somehow not being "in the vacuum". In fact, many of the properties we think of as intrinsic characteristics of particles, such as mass, appear to simply be manifestations of the interactions between the particle and the vacuum.

hammegk,

Math. Physics. TLOP. You also remain clueless. Have fun with your non-deterministic QM effect computer.

If you really believe that computers are not subject to quantum indeterminacy, then you are the one who is clueless. You also have no excuse for this willful ignorance, since several people here have already pointed out specific concrete examples of the indeterminacy inherent in computer hardware.

Dr. Stupid
 
PixyMisa said:
Remember too that the mind is information,

Do you pre-suppose the correctness of materialism in all of your arguments?

Mind is information?? Dear me! :rolleyes:
 
PixyMisa said:
Remember too that the mind is information...


Interesting Ian said:


Do you pre-suppose the correctness of materialism in all of your arguments?

Mind is information?? Dear me! :rolleyes:
Sounds like a good explanation to me, and it does not pre-suppose materialism. After all, "information" is not a material thing, although the places to store it might be. Calling the mind "information" would fit right in with your dualism if you wanted it to. Information is a concept, not matter.

What do you think the mind is?
 
Do you pre-suppose the correctness of materialism in all of your arguments?
As PM has stated materialism to be his working assumption, yes, of course. Anything else would lead to inconsistencies.

Hans
 
UndercoverElephant said:
Pixy :

I'm having trouble understanding your precise position on free will and determinism.

But the behaviour of the information, according to materialism (and you) is still totally dependent on TLOP, yes?
Yes. Information must have a physical representation, and that physical representation is subject to physical law.
If TLOP were totally deterministic would we have Free Will?
I don't know.
Since the TLOP are partly non-deterministic is that why we have Free Will i.e. is Free Will dependent on quantum indeterminacy?
I don't know.
If so does this mean that you are saying that consciousness is capable of taking advantage of quantum randomnesss in order to obtain Free Will?
I don't know. Quantum effects occur in the brain as in all material objects. If consciousness arises from the brain, it is necessarily subject to these quantum effects. Whether and how this is related to consciousness or not has not been shown.
If conciousness is NOT taking advantage of quantum indeterminacy then what is the difference between this situation and totally deterministic laws of physics?
"Taking advantage of"? Read what I say above.
'Free Will' can only mean anything if in a given situation you made the choice 'A', but if that situation could be completely replicated you could have made the choice 'B'.
This is silly. You're saying that free will applies only in situations which cannot happen? Not a terribly useful definition.
Determinism utterly rules this out.
Assuming determinism is true, and that the replicated state includes the brain state, then yes, the choice would be the same every time. That's what determinism means.

However, even in a deterministic universe, this would not happen.
Quantum randomness suggests that you might choose 'A' and you might choose 'B' but that the deciding factor was Random.
A quantum effect might slightly skew one of the data values or one of the decisions, and lead to a different result. Or it might not.
How does either case allow Free Will?

Contrast the above paragraph with Frankos position (and mine) which states that Free Will can only mean something if a human being also has a soul/god-head/'higher self', and it is the soul which takes advantage of the quantum indeterminacy and CHOOSES 'A' or 'B'.

Whose position makes sense?
You claim that free will is somehow magical and transcends the material world, based on no evidence whatsoever.

I define free will as the ability to choose between possible courses of action. Choice is an exercise in information processing. That's all. I do not see any magic in consciousness or free will. Nor is any required.

Tying free will to a single quantum event in an otherwise identical global state is not meaningful. Free will is a real world phenomenon, and such a situation does not happen in the real world.

I simply point out two things: we do indeed make choices, and determinism is observably false.
 
hammegk said:
And for Tricky

Math. Physics. TLOP. You also remain clueless. Have fun with your non-deterministic QM effect computer. :rolleyes:
Rhymes_with_Orange

Appropriate comic strip for this issue. Rhymes with Orange.
 
Tricky said:
Originally posted by PixyMisa

Remember too that the mind is information...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Do you pre-suppose the correctness of materialism in all of your arguments?

Mind is information?? Dear me!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sounds like a good explanation to me, and it does not pre-suppose materialism. After all, "information" is not a material thing, although the places to store it might be.

Well I think that modern physicists think of the world as ultimately being information. If they are also physicalists (as they tend to be) they think consciousnesses or minds as also being information.

You see mass is really energy bound up in a certain way. Energy in its turn is not a thing. Energy is the measure of a system to do work. This in its turn is related to the concept of information.

Calling the mind "information" would fit right in with your dualism if you wanted it to. Information is a concept, not matter.

What do you think the mind is?

Mind is not information anymore than strawberry ice cream is. Information is information is information. Consciousness is awareness, our experiences. Nothing whatsoever to do with information. Information pertains only to physical reality, the world of the perceptually experienced, not of experiencers
 
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Well I think that modern physicists think of the world as ultimately being information. If they are also physicalists (as they tend to be) they think consciousnesses or minds as also being information.[/B]
This is probably true, or at least close to being true.

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
You see mass is really energy bound up in a certain way. Energy in its turn is not a thing. Energy is the measure of a system to do work. This in its turn is related to the concept of information.
While it is true that matter and energy are interconvertable, I do not think that they are the same thing. Could you not say that energy is just mass in a certain configuration? E=MC^2 could also be written as M=E/C^2.

Energy is not a "thing"? I suppose you would have to define what "thing" means. Do you mean tangible? Is work a "thing"? What does qualify as a "thing"?

However, to say energy is a measure, is completely incorrect. Joules are a measure. What they measure is energy.

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Mind is not information anymore than strawberry ice cream is.
If you were a physicalist, you would say that strawberry ice cream is information, or at least that it contains information. Molecular combinations relay information to your taste buds. If it has real strawberries, then there is probably some DNA in the pulp. But this is semantics.


Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Information is information is information.
Thanks for clearing that up.:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Consciousness is awareness, our experiences. Nothing whatsoever to do with information.
Our experiences are not information? A job interviewer would disagree strongly with this. Is memory information?


Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Information pertains only to physical reality, the world of the perceptually experienced, not of experiencers
In that case, strawberry ice cream is definately information. But as to experienced and experiencers, I venture to suggest that they are both part of the "information". As T. S. Eliot asks, "How can you tell the dancer from the dance?"
 
Tricky said:
However, to say energy is a measure, is completely incorrect. Joules are a measure. What they measure is energy.

Joules are simply the unit that energy is expressed in.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Mind is not information anymore than strawberry ice cream is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you were a physicalist, you would say that strawberry ice cream is information, or at least that it contains information. Molecular combinations relay information to your taste buds. If it has real strawberries, then there is probably some DNA in the pulp. But this is semantics.

And also a non-sequitur.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Information is information is information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks for clearing that up.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Consciousness is awareness, our experiences. Nothing whatsoever to do with information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Our experiences are not information?

Of course they aren't. Experience is an experience is an experience! Where does information come into play?

A job interviewer would disagree strongly with this. Is memory information?

I cannot imagine why they would disagree. But if they did so I would let them know what I thought of them. And at the same time, no doubt, lamentably fail to get the job.

No memory has nothing to do with information. Unless you're talking about memory in a metaphorical sense such as used in I.T.
 
Interesting Ian said:
Well I think that modern physicists think of the world as ultimately being information. If they are also physicalists (as they tend to be) they think consciousnesses or minds as also being information.

You see mass is really energy bound up in a certain way. Energy in its turn is not a thing. Energy is the measure of a system to do work. This in its turn is related to the concept of information.

Mind is not information anymore than strawberry ice cream is. Information is information is information. Consciousness is awareness, our experiences. Nothing whatsoever to do with information. Information pertains only to physical reality, the world of the perceptually experienced, not of experiencers

… Fast Graviton
 
Interesting Ian said:
Joules are simply the unit that energy is expressed in.
Why, yes, they are. Units are the measurement. If energy is a measurement, then joules are a measurement of a measurement. Sorry Ian. "Energy is a measurement" is simply incorrect.

Interesting Ian said:
And also a non-sequitur.
Not at all. It is directly related to the statement you have made and provides an alternate viewpoint. How is taste information stored? Is it not in the molecular structure of whatever you are eating?

Interesting Ian said:
Of course they aren't. Experience is an experience is an experience!
Gee, Ian. I am disappointed that you have fallen into such Gertrude Stein-like responses. This sentence tells us exactlly nothing. You are not an idiot. You must see the circular logic here.

Interesting Ian said:
Where does information come into play?
John: Can you tell me about your harrowing experience?
Joe: I don't have much information. I slept through most of it.

How about the old bromide, "Experience keeps a hard school"? If you make a mistake, does not the experience provide information so that you will not make the same mistake again?

Interesting Ian said:
I cannot imagine why they would disagree. But if they did so I would let them know what I thought of them. And at the same time, no doubt, lamentably fail to get the job.
Probably not. Sample scenario:

Interviewer: I need some information about you. Can you tell me about what experience you have?
Ian: Experience is not information.
Interviewer: Next applicant, please.

Interesting Ian said:
No memory has nothing to do with information. Unless you're talking about memory in a metaphorical sense such as used in I.T.
Doctor Ian: I need some information on your medical history.
Amnesia patient: I have no memory.
Doctor Ian: I was not asking for memory, I was asking for information.

So as you can see, your definitions of information, memory and experience are quite contradictory to those that most English speakers use. Are you writing your own Lexicon?
 
Tricky said:
Why, yes, they are. Units are the measurement. If energy is a measurement, then joules are a measurement of a measurement. Sorry Ian. "Energy is a measurement" is simply incorrect.


Not at all. It is directly related to the statement you have made and provides an alternate viewpoint. How is taste information stored? Is it not in the molecular structure of whatever you are eating?


Gee, Ian. I am disappointed that you have fallen into such Gertrude Stein-like responses. This sentence tells us exactlly nothing. You are not an idiot. You must see the circular logic here.


John: Can you tell me about your harrowing experience?
Joe: I don't have much information. I slept through most of it.

How about the old bromide, "Experience keeps a hard school"? If you make a mistake, does not the experience provide information so that you will not make the same mistake again?


Probably not. Sample scenario:

Interviewer: I need some information about you. Can you tell me about what experience you have?
Ian: Experience is not information.
Interviewer: Next applicant, please.


Doctor Ian: I need some information on your medical history.
Amnesia patient: I have no memory.
Doctor Ian: I was not asking for memory, I was asking for information.

So as you can see, your definitions of information, memory and experience are quite contradictory to those that most English speakers use. Are you writing your own Lexicon?

LMAO!! What a clown you are Tricky! Dear me!
 
Stimpson J. Cat said:

hammegk,
If you really believe that computers are not subject to quantum indeterminacy, then you are the one who is clueless. You also have no excuse for this willful ignorance, since several people here have already pointed out specific concrete examples of the indeterminacy inherent in computer hardware.

Dr. Stupid

Stimpy, if your pc seems to be suffering from the QM nuttiness inherent in its' hardware, I'd buy another one. Mine works ok and provides absolutely deterministic answers. When its' output goes indeterminate on me I'll get a new one that works.

If your hardware ( & PixyMisa's & Tricky's) is also having indeterminacy problems, did any of you hurt anyone the last time you randomly ran a red light? Do you often walk into walls? What *are* the symptoms?
 

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