Regarding Franko...

[PixyMisa]

strike 3
youre out of there kid

It appears that I am wrong. Yes indeed Wraith, you are a mindless zombie. It is only everyone else in the world who has free will.

Oh, and gravitons still don't have charge.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The reason nothing can escape from a black hole is that it effectively has an infinitely deep gravity well. But with no space-time surrounding, an initial black hole would not have this well. So the initial black hole was different from those we observe now.

Btw, Frank: I notice that you deny the existence of black holes. Just out of curiosity, whats your beef with them? They are after all predicted by a strictly Einsteinian universe.

Hans

 

[Ipecac]

8=========D

maybe that appeals to you more?

Uh, since you were the one getting all excited about 33 I don't see the relevance of this "retort".

 

[Upchurch]

Uh, since you were the one getting all excited about 33 I don't see the relevance of this "retort".

No direct relevance, no, but I feel it does give a feel for the general intellectual and emotional maturity level that we're dealing with here. Which, in turn, I think explains some of the inconsistancies and mood swings that we've witnessed here. I mean, what male teenager ever made much sense? I know I certainly didn't.

Upchurch

 

[Tricky]

just think to yourself "wraith's choices are Fated"

And just remember that a "choice that is fated" is not a choice. Sure, I can make the translation in my head, but you are making everyone do so, including those who have not learned your lingo. It would behoove your MPB to use the words that say what you mean, rather than using a word but meaning the opposite. Unless, of course, it is your MPB to be misunderstood.

Illusion of free-will?
Do you have an illusion of a 4 sided triangle?

No, it definately exists. I could draw you a picture if I perceived any benefit in doing so.

However, the discussion of "real free will" versus "the illusion of free will" has been going on for some time, with atheists coming down on different sides of the question. If you are truly interested, then we can discuss it. If you are going to be terse and repetitive, then I see no point.

what makes you think that you have an option to have cerial or toast ( whether it may be more complex then you or not ) for breakfast?

I could have either, neither or both, assuming I have them available. (Well, technically I can't have cerial, but I could have cereal). What makes me think I have the option? Free will. Duh.

when you go to take a dump, did you just happen to use toilet paper willy nilly?

Repeating your already-refuted arguments does nothing to support your case, wraith. Plus I worry about your scatophilia.

why didnt cavemen use "free-will" and make the stuff?

Because it was not an available option. They did not have the technology. Do you remember my definition?

Bit like a pilot who was ordered to go into battle, then saying to his friends that he "chose" to?

He did choose to. He had the choice to disobey orders (just like I chose to break the parking lot rules in front of my boss). It might not have been a good option, but it was definately available.

I plan to catch the bus for work.

Yes, it is very easy to predict what choices you will make when certain ones have obviously beneficial outcomes. But you have already admitted that you cannot know in advance what you will choose when the results of the choice are not known. If you play the lottery, do you always know in advance what numbers you will choose? If I asked you again to pick a number between one and a hundred, would you be forced by MPB to pick 33 again? If your choices are that predictable, you would be a lousy poker player.

Why would I "choose" a number in the first place if you didnt ask the question?
When you did ask the question, it would make no sense for me to say "I knew that I was going to pick 33"

Not only would it make no sense, it would be a lie. Your whole argument hinges on the belief that something forces you to make certain choices, and yet you cannot tell what many of those choices will be. Of what use is a concept like this? Even if you don't have free will, you behave as if you do! (This is called "the illusion of free will"). IMO, there is no observable difference between having decisions forced but unknowable versus un-forced choices, i. e. there is no way to tell real free will from the illusion of free will.

How does obeying TLOP give you free-will, whether you can be predicted or not by another person?

Because TLOP include randomness. If you have no choices, then you should be completely predictable. If you cannot show that this is true, then you are just blowing hot air. I've already demonstrated that you are not even predictable to the one person who knows you best... yourself.
Remember this?

Originally posted by wraith
I chose 33. No particular reason...

MPB doesnt work like that.
I dont know if im going to get into a fight tomorrow with a group of tuffs lol
if I am, then at this point in time, they must be doing something that leads to the actual fight. The way that I will respond is based on my MPB. My MPB processes my history to give an outcome.

Just say that you box, and for the past 50 matches, you have dominated every fight that you had with this other boxer. When you guys meet again the next day, will you be scared?

Truly, your examples are getting more bizarre by the minute. However, you say "MPB doesn't work like that." How does it work then? If you know how it works, then why can't you use it to perfectly predict the future? If you don't know how it works, then of what uses is such a concept?

How does uncertainy = free-will?
When do you come to a red light and have feelings of uncertainy, whether or not you have the ability to stop?

I always have a small uncertainty of whether or not I will stop. Even if it is .00001% uncertainty, it is not zero. My brakes might fail. I might get pushed through the red light by the car behind me. I could evern "choose" to run it. Can you tell me with certainty that you will never ever run a red light?

How does TLOP demand free-will?
You obey TLOP. You can have both. You cant use QM as an argument either. If I was driving a car at complete random, does the car have "choice" to go left or right? Backwards or forwards?

Cars do not have free will because they have no options, or at least they have no ability to perceive options. (You really should read the definition I gave for free will).
However, you still need to realize that random is not the opposite of probablilistic. If randomness exists in the universe, then it is impossible to predict all things. If you believe no randomness exists in the universe, then I would LOVE to play poker with you.

Frankster believes that he drives on the right side of the road. I believe that I do

Do you mean "right" as in correct, or "right" as in dextral? But I don't know Franko's position on this so I can't judge the validity of this statement. How about disagreeing with one of the tenets of Logical Deism?
Just as I feared. No yarbles.

 

[Franko]

A-Theist Fool posted:

Because it was a very different kind of a singularity than what you find inside a black hole. The essential physics were entirely different. There were no 'in-going' geodesics, only 'out-going' ones in time. For black holes, you only have 'in-going' geodesics. Also, black hole 'solutions' are part of the local geometry of space-time and are embedded objects. The Big Bang singularity is part of the global geometry to space-time and is not an embedded object. As to how matter escaped from the Big Bang singularity, it's simple. Matter had no choice. These were the only geodesics possible at the time. Also, although local 'horizons' were present, they were constantly growing in size so that today they have all merged together to form the one that we see as the horizon to the visible universe.

hehehe!!!

What "divinely inspired holy book" did you crop this drivel from?

I guess we should just take your word for it Fooly?

 

[Ipecac]

No direct relevance, no, but I feel it does give a feel for the general intellectual and emotional maturity level that we're dealing with here. Which, in turn, I think explains some of the inconsistancies and mood swings that we've witnessed here. I mean, what male teenager ever made much sense? I know I certainly didn't.

Upchurch

Well said.

 

[Franko]

Upchimp:

I mean, what male teenager ever made much sense? I know I certainly didn't.

... and you still don't.

Explain why no evidence for "God" means that no god exist, yet no evidence for "free will" means that "free will" DOES exist?

Why the double standard? Why are there so many contradictions in your dogmatic religious belief system?

(personally I attribute it to all of the religious dogma that a devout A-Theist must blindly adhere to ...)

 

[Franko]

Tricky:

However, the discussion of "real free will" versus "the illusion of free will" has been going on for some time, with atheists coming down on different sides of the question. If you are truly interested, then we can discuss it. If you are going to be terse and repetitive, then I see no point.

terse and repetitive?!?!?

Trixy, I have been on this forum for well over a year now. I've made almost 5000 posts, and I have read 10x that many more. In all those posts and in all that time I have yet to see ANY A-Theist saying ANYTHING non-terse or non-repetitive about "free will".

... and after ALL this time I still haven't seen ONE shred of evidence for "free will".

But I do laugh a lot watching you all pretend to have it.

I see you have conceded that the Wraith's use of the word "choice" is not evidence for "free will" either?

 

[The Fool]

hehehe!!!

What "divinely inspired holy book" did you crop this drivel from?

I guess we should just take your word for it Fooly?

Frank...that little line above the quote, you know....the one that starts with "http" Its called a "link" if you hover the mouse pointer over it and press the button on the left side of the mouse your screen will "magically" go to where the information came from. I'm sorry that you don't understand it, I couldn't find anything more simple.

 

[Franko]

Fool, you are even funnier when you post as Pahansiri.

 

[Tricky]

terse and repetitive?!?!?

Trixy, I have been on this forum for well over a year now. I've made almost 5000 posts, and I have read 10x that many more. In all those posts and in all that time I have yet to see ANY A-Theist saying ANYTHING non-terse or non-repetitive about "free will".

That is probably because there are no A-Theists here, although there are lots of atheists. Of course, there have been long discussions about free will with atheists on various sides of the issue. I can prove this if you like, but let us not get into a pointing match, okay?

... and after ALL this time I still haven't seen ONE shred of evidence for "free will".

But I do laugh a lot watching you all pretend to have it.

Yes, we all get a lot of laughs here for various reasons. But than, you know that.
So, if I may ask, what would you consider valid evidence for free will that we can actually test for? If you can't think of anything, one would have to conclude that you are not amenable to reason on this issue.

I see you have conceded that the Wraith's use of the word "choice" is not evidence for "free will" either?

I have conceded that wraith can define a word any way he chooses. However, what he made was a "choice" (using the standard definition of the word). That "selection", "pick", "option" or whatever you wish to call it, was evidence for free will, at least the way I have defined it. I realize that you will disagree with this and my evidence will fall on deaf ears, but as you point out, I do enjoy sparring with you. Unfortunately, we're gonna have to let the refs decide this one.

 

[wraith]

Uh, since you were the one getting all excited about 33 I don't see the relevance of this "retort".

you know what?

if you rotate 3, it looks like your arse on a chair

 

[wraith]

And just remember that a "choice that is fated" is not a choice. Sure, I can make the translation in my head, but you are making everyone do so, including those who have not learned your lingo. It would behoove your MPB to use the words that say what you mean, rather than using a word but meaning the opposite. Unless, of course, it is your MPB to be misunderstood.

What is choice in your sense?!?!
Do you or do you not make decisions based on how you interpret your past?
If you do, then just how is it possible to choose anything?

No, it definately exists. I could draw you a picture if I perceived any benefit in doing so.

well heres your chance, shut me down by showing me a 4-sided tri

However, the discussion of "real free will" versus "the illusion of free will" has been going on for some time, with atheists coming down on different sides of the question. If you are truly interested, then we can discuss it. If you are going to be terse and repetitive, then I see no point.

There is no "free-will"
there is no "illusion of free-will"

Im listening anyway

I could have either, neither or both, assuming I have them available. (Well, technically I can't have cerial, but I could have cereal). What makes me think I have the option? Free will. Duh.

Why cant you have cerial?
Just use "free-will" and get your cerial!

Repeating your already-refuted arguments does nothing to support your case, wraith. Plus I worry about your scatophilia.

haha
it's a good example

Because it was not an available option. They did not have the technology. Do you remember my definition?

So, are you a product of your surroundings or not?

He did choose to. He had the choice to disobey orders (just like I chose to break the parking lot rules in front of my boss). It might not have been a good option, but it was definately available.

Do you have the choice to disobey TLOP?

Yes, it is very easy to predict what choices you will make when certain ones have obviously beneficial outcomes. But you have already admitted that you cannot know in advance what you will choose when the results of the choice are not known. If you play the lottery, do you always know in advance what numbers you will choose?

The benefit is to enter the draw in the first place. When I fill in lotto numbers, I have a system. This does not mean I think "alright these are the numbers that I will always use." Although, others might. It depends on the person. It depends on their MPB. How often do you fill in lotto tickets with the sequence "1,2,3,4,5,6" ?

If I asked you again to pick a number between one and a hundred, would you be forced by MPB to pick 33 again? If your choices are that predictable, you would be a lousy poker player.

Depends. I would say 33 just to mock you.
I might have said a different number if I had use the one that just "popped" into my head.

Not only would it make no sense, it would be a lie. Your whole argument hinges on the belief that something forces you to make certain choices, and yet you cannot tell what many of those choices will be. Of what use is a concept like this? Even if you don't have free will, you behave as if you do! (This is called "the illusion of free will"). IMO, there is no observable difference between having decisions forced but unknowable versus un-forced choices, i. e. there is no way to tell real free will from the illusion of free will.

To me, free-will and the illusion of free-will are the same thing.
I say that your choices are based on logic. There is a pattern. (MPB)
You say that your choices are ultimately unpredictable. There is no pattern. They are made willy nilly. (Magic)

Because TLOP include randomness. If you have no choices, then you should be completely predictable. If you cannot show that this is true, then you are just blowing hot air. I've already demonstrated that you are not even predictable to the one person who knows you best... yourself.
Remember this?

Its called Evolution Trix, it's MPB compatible

Truly, your examples are getting more bizarre by the minute. However, you say "MPB doesn't work like that." How does it work then? If you know how it works, then why can't you use it to perfectly predict the future? If you don't know how it works, then of what uses is such a concept?

Just tell me when you dont use toilet paper the next time that you take a dump in a bathroom with ample dunny paper

I always have a small uncertainty of whether or not I will stop. Even if it is .00001% uncertainty, it is not zero. My brakes might fail. I might get pushed through the red light by the car behind me. I could evern "choose" to run it. Can you tell me with certainty that you will never ever run a red light?

Sure the brakes may fail. However, that has nothing to do with the fact that you wanted to stop.

Ive ran a few. However, it was a result of my MPB. I saw a benefit to run the red light. When was the last time that you came to a red light and thought "hell, what is QM telling me to do?!!!!??!!"

Cars do not have free will because they have no options, or at least they have no ability to perceive options. (You really should read the definition I gave for free will).

Ultimately, you have no options either. You obey TLOP.

However, you still need to realize that random is not the opposite of probablilistic. If randomness exists in the universe, then it is impossible to predict all things. If you believe no randomness exists in the universe, then I would LOVE to play poker with you.

?
Poker is based on logic isnt it?

Do you mean "right" as in correct, or "right" as in dextral? But I don't know Franko's position on this so I can't judge the validity of this statement. How about disagreeing with one of the tenets of Logical Deism?
Just as I feared. No yarbles.

right as in correct

tenets of LD?

like the belief in the Higher Power?
The Soul?
That your actions have consequences?

....all logical to me

 

[urstardust]

wraith: like the belief in the Higher Power. The Soul?
That your actions have consequences?
"....all logical to me"

What highter power wound that be?
And most of all were is your soul that controls your actions=consequences? It may be logical too you, but were is the logic in a (God) that started everthing? That you and many theists just can't prove..... Can you (anybody)? Or just put a spin on your own wishfull thinking. Like Franko the MASTER of spin.
And why I'm at it; Were Did "God" Come FROM?

 

[PixyMisa]

If you do, then just how is it possible to choose anything?

Err... by choosing?

there is no "illusion of free-will"

Now that's an interesting statement. If I think that I have free will - and I do - then what is it if there is neither free will nor an illusion of free will?

To me, free-will and the illusion of free-will are the same thing.
I say that your choices are based on logic. There is a pattern. (MPB)

MPB, as you use the term, is Free Will. It doesn't matter whether you believe in Free Will or not. You have defined MPB and provided examples of it that match everyone else's definition of Free Will. Nothing you can say will change this. You may be a mindless zombie, but everyone else in the Universe has Free Will.

You say that your choices are ultimately unpredictable.

Correct.

There is no pattern.

Incorrect.

They are made willy nilly.

I asked you once before if you knew what that expression meant. Evidently not.

Magic

Your "magic" is everyone else's everyday normality. If you think that being able to make a choice is somehow magical, you clearly must be a mindless zombie.

Its called Evolution Trix, it's MPB compatible

And you don't know what evolution is either.

Just tell me when you dont use toilet paper the next time that you take a dump in a bathroom with ample dunny paper

I've pointed out before that I use dead bunnies for this purpose.

Sure the brakes may fail. However, that has nothing to do with the fact that you wanted to stop.

No. But it sure makes stopping difficult.

Ive ran a few. However, it was a result of my MPB. I saw a benefit to run the red light.

Well, you are clearly a criminal and will go to hell, unlike us goodly A-Theists.

When was the last time that you came to a red light and thought "hell, what is QM telling me to do?

Have you ever once understood anything that anyone has said to you? I'm not sure at this point how you learned to speak.

Ultimately, you have no options either. You obey TLOP.

Indeed we do. And the laws of physics provide us with endless options.

Poker is based on logic isnt it?

Ooh! I wanna sit in on that game too!

 

[wraith]

What highter power wound that be?

The more evolved Consciousness

And most of all were is your soul that controls your actions=consequences?

Your actual soul?
Youll just have to die and find out


anyway, you can decide now whether or not that your actions have consequences

It may be logical too you, but were is the logic in a (God) that started everthing? That you and many theists just can't prove..... Can you (anybody)? Or just put a spin on your own wishfull thinking. Like Franko the MASTER of spin.
And why I'm at it; Were Did "God" Come FROM?

Oh thats rich!

I take it that you have proof that the universe just came to be?

According to you, non-conscious TLOP just sprung from the box. Yet, the belief in a High Power is just wack!?

Why the double standard?

 

[wraith]

Now that's an interesting statement. If I think that I have free will - and I do - then what is it if there is neither free will nor an illusion of free will?

do you have the illusion of a 4-sided tri?

MPB, as you use the term, is Free Will. It doesn't matter whether you believe in Free Will or not. You have defined MPB and provided examples of it that match everyone else's definition of Free Will. Nothing you can say will change this. You may be a mindless zombie, but everyone else in the Universe has Free Will.

It does actually.
Free-willy believers are really the ones who are "mindless zombies"

Correct.

Because of QM?
You have not demonstrated that this is the case

No. But it sure makes stopping difficult.

Do you know what a perceived benefit is?
Do you know what obeying TLOP means?

Indeed we do. And the laws of physics provide us with endless options.

Pixy, I SO think that youre losing it.
You obey TLOP
how many options do you have?
does the moon choose its orbit?

 

[PixyMisa]

do you have the illusion of a 4-sided tri?

No. But I either have free will or the illusion of it. So which is it?

It does actually.

How does it matter what you believe?

Free-willy believers are really the ones who are "mindless zombies"

You're the one who has claimed to be predictable 90% of the time. That makes you the mindless zombie, I'm afraid.

Because of QM?
You have not demonstrated that this is the case

Quantum Mechanics includes some of the most fundamental of those Laws of Physics you like so much. Quantum Mechanics is non-deterministic. Put chaos theory on top of that, and you have the human mind. You can't predict what I will do. If people can predict what you will do, it's because you're a mindless zombie, and not a human like the rest of us.

Do you know what a perceived benefit is?

I do. You apparently don't.

Do you know what obeying TLOP means?

I do. You very clearly have no idea what the Laws of Physics are.

Pixy, I SO think that youre losing it.

Harsh words, coming from a mindless zombie.

how many options do you have?

Infinitely many. Approximately.

does the moon choose its orbit?

Can't you think of a new question? No. Like you, the moon is a big lump of matter with no mind. Therefore, it is quite unable to choose anything. It can therefore be predicted statistically with enough accuracy for pretty much any purpose.

 

[wraith]

No. But I either have free will or the illusion of it. So which is it?

Thats my point. Free-will is like a 4 sided tri.

Quantum Mechanics includes some of the most fundamental of those Laws of Physics you like so much. Quantum Mechanics is non-deterministic. Put chaos theory on top of that, and you have the human mind. You can't predict what I will do. If people can predict what you will do, it's because you're a mindless zombie, and not a human like the rest of us.

I say that MPB is logical. If I had the info, I can predict your actions.
If consciousness works in another way, lets here it...
Remember me saying "When was the last time that you came to a red light and thought "hell, what is QM telling me to do?""!!

Infinitely many. Approximately.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you please make sense?

You say that you obey TLOP
Yet you have infinite options?
Sounds to me that you have a severe case of solipsism

Can't you think of a new question? No. Like you, the moon is a big lump of matter with no mind. Therefore, it is quite unable to choose anything. It can therefore be predicted statistically with enough accuracy for pretty much any purpose.

No I will not think of a new question.

SO what if the moon has no mind. You and the moon are still made of atoms. You both obey TLOP.
How does having a mind give you free-will?
Are the atoms that form your mind, bound to TLOP? You obey TLOP!
You dont choose anything...
Pix, you cant have both. No matter how desperate you are.
Maybe you prefer solipsism?