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Regarding Franko...

Q-Source said:
Well, this is new for me. I have to say that I just have general knowledge about Physics.
Let me see if we are talking about the same. Are you saying that the orbit of a planet is a probabilistic event?


Well, in a way yes. There is a vanishingly small probability that the planet could break it's orbit even though it does not have the necessary energy to do so. Hopefully that will makes more sense after the rest of this post.

It means that you can apply both approaches because the difference between them are so small that they never differ.

Am I right?


Yeah. The thing is, that applying quantum mechanics in such a way gets mathematically complex in a very big hurry. So it's just easier to approximate things using classical mechanics, since it so closely approximates what is right in those cases anyway. It's the same thing with classical mechanics and relativity. If you are dealing with speeds that are only a very small fraction of c, it isn't worth doing the more complicated work of dealing with relativity because you are going to get practically the same results anyway (out to a large number of decimal places).

Of course I'd like.
I would appreciate it.
Thanks.

Q-S

Ok...here I go...quantum tunneling. This is a good way to show that quantum mechanics is probabilistic, and at the same time give an example of something that classical mechanics can not explain. Say I'm shooting some electrons at a thin physical barrier. A barrier that the electrons do not actually have the energy to pass through. If I do this over and over, I will eventually notice that, to my surprise, a certain percentage of the electrons that I'm shooting actually DO pass through the barrier. This should never happen according to classical mechanics. The particles don't have enough energy to pass through the barrier, so they don't pass through the barrier. According to quantum mechanics however, we do actually expect this to be the case. I think the best way to cover this is through a visual representation, and since I can't draw a picture I will point you to here http://phys.educ.ksu.edu/vqm/html/qtunneling.html

All you have to do is hit the redraw graphs button. The top box is a representation of the particle energy and the barrier conditions (note that the particle energy is lower than the energy necessary to go over the barrier). The bottom box is a graph of the particle's wave function. You will notice that it continues on past the position of the barrier, but at a much lower amplitude. The probability of finding the particle at any particular position is a function of the amplitude of the wave function (bigger amplitude, bigger probability). So it is much more likely that the particle will be on the side of the barrier that it originates from, but there is some small probability that it will pass through the barrier and be located on the other side, despite it not having enough energy to actually pass through the barrier. Now, if you mess with the width of the barrier in the barrier properties, and redraw the graph, you will notice that by increasing the barrier width by even a small amount, the amplitude on the right hand side of the graph quickly approaches zero (it does remain nonzero, it's just not easy to see on the graph). That just goes to show how small the probability usually is.

Now, apply this to a macroscopic event...let's say you are throwing a tennis ball at a brick wall. The ball would need some amount of energy to pass through the wall and end up on the other side. An energy which we will assume that you are not going to generate with your throw. Now, we could deal with this event classically quite easily. However, we could also do it quantum mechanically by doing an analysis of every single particle in the tennis ball in the same manner that we would do for the single electron in the example above. You should be able to see why I would rather do this classically...a tennis ball has a lot of particles, and that means a whole lot of calculations. If I were to do this, and then add up all the wave functions, I would have a wave function that would adequately describe the macroscopic actions of the tennis ball. Now, when I throw it at the brick wall, the height and width of my energy barrier are MUCH bigger than those in the example in the applet (we are talking several orders of magnitude at least). So, obviously the amplitude of the wave function on the other side of the barrier is going to be VERY small. So in reality, if you throw a tennis ball at a brick wall...it actually might have a 0.000000000000000000000000000000.....0000001% chance of going through and ending up on the other side, even though you didn't throw it hard enough to go through (according to classical mechanics). That probability is so small though, that it never actually happens.
 
It's currently true that perception of what-is, probing what-is and attempting to describe what-is by math, yields probabalistic results.

As Einstein wondered, is what-is actually probabalistic, or is the math missing a variable or three?
 
hammegk said:
It's currently true that perception of what-is, probing what-is and attempting to describe what-is by math, yields probabalistic results.

As Einstein wondered, is what-is actually probabalistic, or is the math missing a variable or three?

It's a good question, but as I've mentioned, the available data does not point to it being the case.
 
Mordred said:


Yeah. The thing is, that applying quantum mechanics in such a way gets mathematically complex in a very big hurry. So it's just easier to approximate things using classical mechanics, since it so closely approximates what is right in those cases anyway. It's the same thing with classical mechanics and relativity. If you are dealing with speeds that are only a very small fraction of c, it isn't worth doing the more complicated work of dealing with relativity because you are going to get practically the same results anyway (out to a large number of decimal places).


Amazing.

Thanks Mordred, you put it cristal clear.

That makes a lot of sense now. Even though the events seems

to be deterministic, they are still probabilistic.

In this scenario, then we cannot claim that TLOP

predetermine every single action in the Universe.

Q-S
 
Q-Source said:


Amazing.

Thanks Mordred, you put it cristal clear.

That makes a lot of sense now. Even though the events seems

to be deterministic, they are still probabilistic.

In this scenario, then we cannot claim that TLOP

predetermine every single action in the Universe.

Q-S

I told this to Franko repeatedly and it doesn't make any difference. Either you control TLOP or TLOP controls you blah blah blah...

TP
 
Mordred said:
So in reality, if you throw a tennis ball at a brick wall...it actually might have a 0.000000000000000000000000000000.....0000001% chance of going through and ending up on the other side, even though you didn't throw it hard enough to go through (according to classical mechanics). That probability is so small though, that it never actually happens.

Lets say that I actually did throw a tennis ball at a wall and it passed through it, if someone wound back time to the point where Im just about to through the ball, would the ball go through the wall again or not?
 
Interesting question... What if the time splits away and in your second instance the ball does something completely different then in the first? It does not effect you or future where you come from, but it would change everything in the "now"...

For more info check out the Back to the Future trilogy. :D

wraith said:


Lets say that I actually did throw a tennis ball at a wall and it passed through it, if someone wound back time to the point where Im just about to through the ball, would the ball go through the wall again or not?
 
wraith said:


Lets say that I actually did throw a tennis ball at a wall and it passed through it, if someone wound back time to the point where Im just about to through the ball, would the ball go through the wall again or not?

That would be dependent on whether the event was merely a kind of "instant replay" of the original event, or if it could be considered a completely unique and seperate event. If it's just a replay the same exact thing will happen of course...if it is a unique event, then the chances of it going through the wall are infinitesimal. It shouldn't go through the wall in the first place though. This is kind of a useless hypothetical in my opinion. You are asking what would happen if a physical event that shouldn't happen, happened, and then you "rewound" time, which you have no idea how to do (if it is even possible at all). Besides the fact that it wouldn't happen in the first place, you would need to more rigorously define what rewinding time would mean.

Still waiting to see if Franko can tell us what Einstein won his Nobel for. If you don't know you can just look it up, it won't be hard to find.
 
Oh, oh... since the Nobel prize is Swedish (and I'm Swedish) I thought I might intervene!

Here's a link that may be helpful.

---

I would also like to take the opportunity to point out once again that the mere existence of (what may be) a certain unavoidable state of things (which may be described by a set of "laws") does not constitute any irrefutable proof of an intelligent, conscious and omnipotent being which started it all, notwithstanding if the "perfect laws of physics" ultimately are deterministic or probabilistic. At least not in any way which has been presented on this forum. If we then add the notion that such a being is also benevolent it becomes even more difficult to see any proof of the existence of such a being IMHO.

Franko really needs to go back to the drawing board...
 
Mordred said:
If it's just a replay the same exact thing will happen of course...

So much for free-will?
:eek:
If it was truly a system based on probability, then things will be doing stuff for absolute no reason......

There would be no such thing as logic...


if it is a unique event, then the chances of it going through the wall are infinitesimal.

For sure, but it's not unique. If you go back in time, how would you gain information? How would the system change? It would only change if you brought the information from the future back to the past, then it would be unique.

It shouldn't go through the wall in the first place though.

Yet it did
;)

You are asking what would happen if a physical event that shouldn't happen, happened, and then you "rewound" time, which you have no idea how to do (if it is even possible at all).

point being?
:cool:

Besides the fact that it wouldn't happen in the first place, you would need to more rigorously define what rewinding time would mean.

If you won the lotto 10 mins ago, would your actions be different than it is now?

Going back into time: losing information / regress...
along those lines
;)
 
wraith said:


If you won the lotto 10 mins ago, would your actions be different than it is now?



Frank.
You really love these "rewind time" examples. Why do you only ever want to rewind 10 minutes or some other small unit of time? I agree that If you were rewound a small amount of time then you probably would do pretty much the same thing. Mainly because there is not much time for the truly random events that happen in the real world to have an effect. Now I know that you don't believe that anything is random, partly due to your exposure to random number generators. I think you understand that they are pseudo-random, same seed, same output sequence every time etc? However, I think you discount chaos and the true ability of the real world to generate random outcomes. Rewing 10 years instead of 10 minutes and even random variations in the Earths weather patterns are going to change my decision making process. Decide to stay home instead of go out (Its raining)....Bingo....you've changed your whole future. Sit on that chair instead of this chair....Bingo...future changed again. You have to chuck out an awful lot of very convincing stuff to believe that very complex systems are completely non random over a significant timespan.
 
Franko,

Franko said:
You certainly can’t do it via....Materialism.....You have to make an entire Universe Pop out of Nothing.
Just a quantum fluctuation - such a really, really small thing really! :)

Actually, the problem is why should there be such a thing as a quantum fluctuation. There has to be an potential for one before you get one. This potential is not nothing and therefore you are still not getting something (quantum fluctuation) from nothing.

This is the great unsolved mystery for materialism

Franko said:
Me … I only have to make a tiny infinitely simple rudimentary algorithm pop out of an infinite amount of Time, and an infinite amount of Nothing.
Even if this algorithm is simpler than a quantum fluctuation, I am still not clear about how you can get your something ("tiny infinitely simple rudimentary algorithm") out of nothing. Even with infinite time there must be the potential for generating albgorithms (even "tiny infinitely simple rudimentary algorithms")

Franko said:
And besides … according to Godel, Nothing has to come from Nothing. According to him maybe there was always something
I think you mean "Nothing can come from nothing ergo there must always have been something." But then.....

How can there have always been something?

Is it any easier to understand "Always something" than "something from nothing"?

Franko said:
Matter does NOT evolve. Matter just sits there and degrades according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Only Consciousness evolves.
It seems we still have a fundamental disagreement about Entropy.

Franko said:
I think the key to you understanding lies in the “illusion of free will” you talk about. You need to perceive reality in this way for it to make any sense to you.
I used the term “illusion of free will” to illustrate how real "free will" seems - as real as the square in the color-bleeding optical illusion.

Perhaps it is actually a "delusion of free will" as you imply.

I'm not sure how I would go about demonstrating that free will is an illusion rather than a delusion - whether is is like the square in the color spreading illusion or like the delusion of alien abductions - now that you have informed me that not everyone feels as if they have free will.

Franko said:
This is exactly the same idea with “God”. As an unconscious “force” Tlop would remain ever an incomprehensible mystery to you, but if its source is another consciousness intrinsically like your own, then it is within your grasp to comprehend it.
Perhaps but I am not sure I am happy with the fractal explanation for "God" being a cause uncaused.

regards,
BillyJoe
(...and thanks for your compliments.)
 
Franko,

I understand you think that Einstein believed in God. I wonder what you think of the following quotes form Einstein:

"Strange is our situation here on earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake of other men -- above all for those upon whose smiles and well-being our own happiness depends. "

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. "

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. "

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. "

"It was the experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion."

"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being. "

"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. "

"I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."


regards,
BillyJoe.
 
wraith said:
So much for free-will?
:eek:


Where have I ever claimed that there was any such thing?

If it was truly a system based on probability, then things will be doing stuff for absolute no reason......

There would be no such thing as logic...


No, they would be behaving exactly according to the probability distributions given by the equations. Just because anything is possible...doesn't mean everything is sufficiently probable to actually happen.

Logic remains as it is. The problem comes when you attempt to apply omnivalent or Aristotlean logic to the real world. Logic you see is a synthetic system. It does it's job extremely well, because it was designed to do exactly that. What it doesn't necessarily do is transfer absolutely to the physical world. This is the value of multivalent logic in my opinion...it more closely resembles how things actually seem to work in reality. It's the same thing with math, with any abstract system. To use an actually relevant Einstein quote...

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."--Albert Einstein

As for the rest...yikes...you need to work on your ability to convey your ideas more clearly (or work on more clearly defining what the hell your ideas really are). However, if all this is an attempt to ask could an event actually turn out differently than it actually did...the Copenhagen Interpretation says yes.
 
QUANTUM PROBABILITIES

I am pretty sure it has not been proven that rewinding the clock and letting her rip again would not result in the same pobabilities being repeated and hence an identical play evolving.

In any case, even if the probabilities were not repeated, this is no basis for "free will". This would be a delusion of "free will" if you believed that.
 
Re: QUANTUM PROBABILITIES

BillyJoe said:
I am pretty sure it has not been proven that rewinding the clock and letting her rip again would not result in the same pobabilities being repeated and hence an identical play evolving.


The probability distribution would be exactly the same, but the whole point is that this does not necessarily gaurantee the same outcome. If you have a pair of dice and roll them twice, the probabilities are exactly the same both times for the possible combinations, but you are very likely to get different outcomes. It all depends on how the probabilities are distributed.

In any case, even if the probabilities were not repeated, this is no basis for "free will". This would be a delusion of "free will" if you believed that.

I agree, I've never said anything in support of free will being real. I do not have conclusive evidence either way, therefore my default position is that it doesn't exist. However, this is not a problem for me as Franko/wraith seems to like to claim without providing proof. I also continue to operate in everyday life with the assumption that I do indeed have free will because the idea, independent of truth, is useful.

And Schrodinger's cat is both alive and dead (in the thought experiment at least) :p
 
The Fool said:


Frank.
You really love these "rewind time" examples. Why do you only ever want to rewind 10 minutes or some other small unit of time?

Rewind it all the way back to the big bang if you want...
nothing would change
:eek:
 
wraith said:


Rewind it all the way back to the big bang if you want...
nothing would change
:eek:

I'm sorry to have to point this out to you, but if quantum mechanics is right, then you are wrong. So either offer sufficient evidence to disprove quantum mechanics, or abandon this opinion. Those are your logical options at this point. By the way, I find your "rewind" thought experiment unnecessarily confusing. It would be better just to say if you had two universes operating under identical laws, with identical initial conditions they would turn out exactly the same...of course that is also untrue if those laws are the same as they appear to be in our universe.
 

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