Franko in ordinary type
BillyJoe in bold type
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That’s simply not True. There are plenty of 16 year old kids who can control a CAR, but they don’t know squat about controlling TLOP.
TLOP controls YOU controls CAR
Okay we’re using “control” in different senses here.
We were originally talking about “understanding” and it is in this sense that I understanding the meaning of your word “control”.
What makes you so certain that only humans build CARS?
Give me an example of something else that does.
Is a CAR more or less complex than the MOON? TLOP made the MOON didn’t it? Are you telling me that TLOP can build the MOON, but NOT build a CAR?
TLOP can only “build” a CAR through “building” homo sapiens.
I still bet I can make a CAR quicker than you can make a Human.
Franko, we are talking about different things.
Consider the following…..
(1) TLOP -> homo sapiens.
(2) TLOP -> homo sapiens -> CAR
(3) TLOP -> homo sapiens -> homo sapiens.
I am comparing (1) and (2).
You are comparing (2) and (3)
Do you agree with me that (2) takes longer than (1). If so, then CAR is more complex than homo sapiens
In any case, I agree with you that (3) takes longer than (2). And that homo sapiens “made” by homo sapiens is more complex that CAR “made” by homo sapiens.
You are trying to change the test. You are saying that to make a CAR you have to actually make two things – a human, and a car. Well if that is the case, then don’t you first have to make TLOP before you can make a Human? If a human is harder to make than a car, then doesn’t that imply that TLOP is harder to make than a human?
See the above.
Where do you stand?
Sometimes rocks are stacked naturally by TLOP. How can we tell which stacked stones are the more complex and evolved human-stacked variety, and which types are the less complex and evolved Tlop-stacked variety? If you are claiming that there is a difference in complexity, then we should be able to observe this difference.
If YOU are stacking those rocks to make a house, that house is more complex than YOU because it first requires the “making” of YOU. Therefore the complexity of YOU is inherent in the complexity of the house.
And I have never seen rocks stacking randomly to form a house.
There is plenty of proof for God and afterlife, but not while you are deluded with crazy notions of “free will”.
I thought we were agreed that free will does not exist.
[BJ: Would you say then that you feel yourself following a predetermined path?]
Yes.
Okay, I’ll have to accept that you do.
How much effort, though, does it take to train yourself to stop feeling as if you are actually making decisions?
The biggest immediate difference I notice, is that I do not declare something UNKNOWN to be FALSE automatically.
(N x P) + R = Z
With no other information I would claim that this equation is UNKNOWN. An A-Theists would say that based on no evidence it is FALSE. This is ludicrous in my way of thinking, I do not consider it logical at all.
Neither do I.
I consider anything for which there is no evidence as irrelevant.
And increasingly irrelevant the longer you spend looking for this evidence and find it lacking.
My perception is what ultimately causes it to manifest. Without perception, nothing exist.
Your consciousness produces reality?
Don’t take this the wrong way my friend, but A-Theism diminishes your perception of Time.
Can you explain this for me.
Time is just change. Without change there is no time. I can’t see what atheism has to do with it.
Is the Moon more than the sum of its atoms and molecules? In a way yes, but that doesn’t mean the Moon has “free will”. It also doesn’t mean that the Moon isn’t doing what it is commanded to do by TLOP, just like you. Your “orbit” is just slightly harder to perceive.
But I don’t believe in free will anyway.
You get One True Free Will choice … essentially, is it better to exist, or not exist?
This is not free will but a value judgement.
Free will is to decide whether to continue to exist or to start not existing.
Or more correctly stated….
The illusion of free will is to feel as if you decide whether to continue to exist or to start not existing.
[BJ: So the Goddess you talk about is merely TLOP? ]
Tlop is like your words in these posts. In other words, any way that you communicate with me is ultimately you transmitting a meme to me. Tlop is the mechanism that the LG uses to transmit Her memes to you.
Let me put it another way:
BillyJoe is To Initial State (Goddess) what Billyjoe’s words are to To the Laws of Physics (TLOP).
The LG is the “Physics” in TLOP. Just like any of your communications follow the protocol of TLOB (The Laws of Billyjoe).
Does the Goddess formulate TLOP then?
According to Atheism/Pseudo-Materialism, “God” (Source of Tlop) is an incomprehensible invisible mystery non-conscious, sorta, kinda, “machine-like” thingy-ma-bob.
I wouldn’t say so.
The source of TLOP is unknown.
One possibility is the idea of a Multiverse containing all possible universes of which our universe is but one with its particular LOP. There is, of course, no evidence for Multiverse so it is just an interesting thought.
Of course, then there is still the question “Why anything at all?”
Quantum fluctuation, maybe, but then why quantum fluctuation.
There is also no evidence for God.
Unfortunately there is mystery at the beginning of the universe (or Multiverse) and you just have to live with it. Personally, I’m okay with it but, obviously, Franko, you are not?
According to Logical deism/Materialism, “God” (source of Tlop) is just another Graviton, like You or Me.
This is the turtles argument?
Well why do you think the A-Theists have invented “free will”? It’s because they don’t like the idea of being machines. Machines obey Fate, they are controlled by their program.
But I am a non-theist who is also a non-free-willy
But my point is that suppose you found out that you were a robot? Would it really change anything? Would it make you less human, less conscious?
No.
But if it [consciousness] makes your algorithm function more efficiently, then it does effect reality.
And what if the consciousness is, itself, just algorithm?
That’s just question begging on your part. Did the Ocean need a human to build it first? How about the grand canyon? Is the ocean more or less complex than a Car? Less? Why because a human didn’t make the ocean? That’s circular logic.
It’s not circular.
It’s a straight line…..
TLOP -> The Earth (including oceans and grand canyon) -> -> -> homo sapiens -> car
Without making reference to humans, provide a definition of complexity that explains why a CAR is more complex than the Moon (or the Ocean, or the Grand Canyon)?
Can’t do it.
The car is more complex than the Moon because the Moon came before homo sapiens and car came after homo sapiens.
Like I said, we know more about TOASTERS, which means that TLOP knows more about TOASTERS, why do you claim that TOASTERS have gained information (evolved), we have gained information (evolved), but TLOP has NOR gained information (evolved). Why the contradiction?
Perhaps this might help…..
TLOP -> non-evolutionary development (galaxies) -> genetic evolution (homo sapiens) -> mimetic evolution (art, science, culture)
Yes, but aren’t there important “genetic” differences between TOASTERS of today, and a hundred years ago?
No genetic differences but heaps of mimetic differences
Well if TLOP and the Initial state didn’t determine the current state of the Universe (Reality), then what did? Was it magic?
You didn’t say “determine”, you said “got together and decided” implying a “primordial consciousness”.
If you are not implying that, then I agree.
[BJ: In your theory it’s Big Things -> little things. In my theory it’s little things -> Big Things ]
In my theory a simple, low energy system evolves into a complex, high energy system over Time.
In your system it would seem that a simple, high energy system develops into a simpler, lower energy system over Time.
Isn’t it strange……..
You say my system does what I say your system does and I say your system does what you say my system does.
Seems like we at least agree on what the system should do but we disagree on which system does it……
After all, TLOP makes more things than humans which make more things than toasters.
…..and this is your reason why your system does what we both agree the system should do.
Although I think you mean that it’s complexity, not quantity, that matters.
For you, TLOP is more complex than homo sapiens whereas, tfor me, it’s the reverse.
How do we resolve this dilemma about our disagreement?
Once again, I can break rocks by smashing them on the ground. TLOP can similarly break rocks. Why are the rocks that I smash more complex then the ones TLOP smashes according to you?
‘smashing” is not “making”
There is obviously no increase in complexity when you break rocks.
Billyjoe, is a watch more complex, or less complex than a solar system? Our solar system is certainly a much more accurate time keeper then a watch, so how can you claim that the watch is more complex than a solar system? Doesn’t Tlop already make much more complex watches then we humans do?
No. Because to “make” a watch first required “making” consciousness” whereas making a solar system does not.
Of course you will say that TLOP is conscious.
And Tlop does not encompass that entire set?
If TLOP is more complex than homo sapiens, then why is a microbe not more complex than homo sapiens
TLOP -> microbes -> homo sapiens.
In any case doesn’t this conflict with your earlier statement…..
“In my theory a simple, low energy system evolves into a complex, high energy system over Time.”
[BJ: Complexity progressively increases form left to right]
I don’t see how you can make that statement. You are trying to claim that the subset is greater then the whole set.
Are branches a subset of the trunk?
Entropy is increasing over Time for the universe as a whole (at least according to the A-Theist). How did the Entropy of all the energy start off so low?
If the universe started as a quantum fluctuation, then that quantum fluctuation filled the whole of spacetime. That’s a pretty ordered spacetime.
Why doesn’t energy just appear all the time if it is so simple?
Why haven’t there been any more “Bangs” since the big one?
Energy always totals zero.
But perhaps separating Energy into Mass and Gravity is not so simple an occurrence.
(I need the help of a physicist here.)
Exactly! So how did all of this USEABLE energy just magically appear out of the void one day 12.7 billion years ago? Like I said, for the A-Theists magical religion to be true, you have to take a poop on your most solid Science – Thermodynamics.
You mean the First Law?
Energy is a zero sum.
No net energy is appearing at any time and, therefore, the First Law is not violated.
Of course if you listen to Godel and Einstein instead …
I’m listening……
[BJ: Energy separates into mass and gravity but the total energy remains zero.]
No one has ever gotten that “theory” to work, and no one ever will (well … other than in their own mind I mean …)
Any physicists out there?
Well I agree, but that is my point, if Entropy ALWAYS increases globally, then how do you account for the MASSIVE contradiction of ENTROPY decreasing globally at the moment of the Big Bang?
Moment before Big Bang: Entropy = zero
Moment after Big Bang: Entropy > zero
It increases from zero and just keeps increasing
The answer is simple, but it would be a long conversation. Suffice to say, this isn’t the only universe to exist, or the only one that will exist. Just as we evolve, so do universes, and so does reality itself.
The LG is the product of such evolution, but she is “New”, like us. She is a product of the original primordial consciousness that the LD call the Progenitor Solipsist (PS). This entity was the first consciousness (although he was very unlike us). Eventually, this entity split himself, and when he did, evolution as we know it began. We are all his descendants … he is our ancestor.
But the PS, like ourselves, is made out of True-Matter. Essentially he is made out of self-aware Time.
Logical Goddess, Primordial Consciousness, Progenitor Solipsist, True-Matter?
Franko, are you sure this is not a religion.
But like I said … that is a long conversation.
Perhaps I need to read a book on it then? 
