Recent developments in UFO 'Abductology'
- Thread starter Accidental Martyr
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Hey, speaking of - you never did reply to the point raised in that post - namely that the whole thing being a joke is a plausible explanation. (Not that here would be the place, we should probably keep it in that thread since it is moderated).
I don't think it's much of a derail - I think it's understandable that in a thread about UFOs in any way some supporters are going to show up and at that point it's hard to say where the line is between research methods and the results of that research.
This, though, is getting to be pretty much off-topic. I will now contribute to that problem for just a moment: For what it's worth, while I agree that intelligence would generally be required for the kind of abductions that people claim I wouldn't think a particularly high level would be needed. A fairly animalistic critter could have a set of 'rules' that allowed it to fly around and ocasionally kidnap someone. It could be an unmanned craft run by a computer (not even full AI) or a giant space-crab or something.
Getting back to the research question, I have my doubts about the numbers. Nobody I know has talked about being abducted by aliens, and while I would expect some to keep quiet if it were as widespread as those studies suggest I would hear about it more often and from primary sources.
I can not take the Alien Abduction thing seriously at all. In the past people thought they were flying to Witches Sabbaths and such. (It is often forgotton that a lot of peole volunarily confessed to being witches without the aid of torture and imprisonment).
For the past 30+ years we have had the phenomena of Repressed memories of child abuse, and repressed memories of Satanic cult abuse. In the case of Satanic cult abuse we have had people "remember", all sorts of sick and wicked stuff and such memories are pieced together by investigators into a vast Satanic conspiracy complete with mass human sacrifice and a conspiracy to take over. Its all very paranoid and absurd. its similarities with the belief in the great Satanic Witch plot during the early modern period are not coincidental.
Well Alien abductions remind me of this sort of stuff. After all some Alien Abduction researchers talk about "Hybrids" and go on about how aliens are taking over etc.
Two of the basic ideas that form the foundation for this stuff arer the idea of repressed memory. I.e., the notion that traumatic memories can be filed in a corner of mind beyond concious recall and then through hypnosis or some of means be brought back to concious recall in a uncontaminated state, like a video recorder.
The other idea is that hypnosis is a relatively unproblematic way to search for, excavate these memories. Well it appears that people can confabulate, fantasize rather easily under hypnosis further they can be guided to have memories of things that never happened. Most of the time the subjects investigated for Alien Abductions know what the researcher is looking for. Hypnosis is not a truth serum.
Reading a couple of Alien Abduction books I simply could not take it seriously it reminded me of both the repressed memories of Satanic Ritual abuse, and the memories of accussed witches. The book The Threat was esspecially amusing in this respect.
If we are going to take Alien Abductions seriously then we have to take seriously the Great Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy; after all it is based on the same type of evidence. Ashuman psychology Alien Abductions are fascinating; as reality, I doubt it.
For the past 30+ years we have had the phenomena of Repressed memories of child abuse, and repressed memories of Satanic cult abuse. In the case of Satanic cult abuse we have had people "remember", all sorts of sick and wicked stuff and such memories are pieced together by investigators into a vast Satanic conspiracy complete with mass human sacrifice and a conspiracy to take over. Its all very paranoid and absurd. its similarities with the belief in the great Satanic Witch plot during the early modern period are not coincidental.
Well Alien abductions remind me of this sort of stuff. After all some Alien Abduction researchers talk about "Hybrids" and go on about how aliens are taking over etc.
Two of the basic ideas that form the foundation for this stuff arer the idea of repressed memory. I.e., the notion that traumatic memories can be filed in a corner of mind beyond concious recall and then through hypnosis or some of means be brought back to concious recall in a uncontaminated state, like a video recorder.
The other idea is that hypnosis is a relatively unproblematic way to search for, excavate these memories. Well it appears that people can confabulate, fantasize rather easily under hypnosis further they can be guided to have memories of things that never happened. Most of the time the subjects investigated for Alien Abductions know what the researcher is looking for. Hypnosis is not a truth serum.
Reading a couple of Alien Abduction books I simply could not take it seriously it reminded me of both the repressed memories of Satanic Ritual abuse, and the memories of accussed witches. The book The Threat was esspecially amusing in this respect.
If we are going to take Alien Abductions seriously then we have to take seriously the Great Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy; after all it is based on the same type of evidence. Ashuman psychology Alien Abductions are fascinating; as reality, I doubt it.
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MontagK505
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Be careful what you wish for. The aliens may exibit extreme sexual dimorphism.
The females may all look like "Jabba the Hut" and smell like a possum that's been dead for 5 days. Ramjet say's we can't understand their motivations, so you never know what might turn an alien on.
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Well this is the problem right here. The phenomenon of “alien abduction” clearly occurs. Many people are severely traumatised by it. We simply must take such a phenomenon seriously if it is harming people. The explanation for that phenomenon is an entirely different matter. Aliens, sleep paralysis, mental disturbance, all explanations that must be explored. However the mere fact that the phenomenon manifests as “alien abduction”, should not mean that we do not take it seriously.
What do you make of the following cases then?
Police Officer Herbert Schirmer Abduction (3 Dec 1967)
(http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case659.htm)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/herbertschirmer.html)
The Pascagoula, Mississippi - Hickson/Parker Abduction (10 Oct 1973)
(http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pascagoula.html)
(http://www.ufologie.net/htm/pascagoula.htm)
May I ask what they were?
You really should acquaint yourself with the actual phenomenon and the non-fiction research. For example:
(http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fbi/2929/alien_abductions_revisited.html)
(http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html)
(http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Abduction_phenomenon)
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MontagK505
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With the aliens obscure motivations and magic technology, any observations about them are likely to be meaningless. With their magic powers they they could make you believe anything they want. They could even make you believe they exist when they actually don't. It's MAGIC!
Accidental Martyr
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I can only suggest then that you also should aquaint yourself with both the phenomenon and the research:
(http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fbi/2929/alien_abductions_revisited.html)
(http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html)
(http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Abduction_phenomenon)
Then come back and tell me what adequate and parsimoneous mundane explanations we actually have.
Accidental Martyr
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Sleep paralysis and mental disturbances are things that are known to exist. Aliens are not.
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There, I bolded the relevent bit for you ...I am also not suprised that you have failed to aquaint yourself with the phenomenon and the research literature. If you had you would have realised that the explanations you propose fail the test of Occam's Razor - and you proposed that should apply in abduction cases (they simply don't fit the evidence for a start).
Accidental Martyr
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If you will refer to my OP you will see that I spent many years reading about the UFO phenomenon and giving it serious thought. I am familiar with UFO lore etc. Several years ago I came to the conclusion that the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis is not valid. This is an excellent article:
The Cultural Background of UFO Reports.
http://magonia.haaan.com/1990/entir...cultural-background-of-ufo-abduction-reports/
Correa Neto
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Be careful what you wish for. The aliens may exibit extreme sexual dimorphism.
The females may all look like "Jabba the Hut" and smell like a possum that's been dead for 5 days. Ramjet say's we can't understand their motivations, so you never know what might turn an alien on.
Don't give up your hopes! According to UFO lore, female aliens are short, blue-eyed, platinum blondes with red armpit and pubic hairs and have very thin lips. They have slim beautiful bodies with firm well-separated boobs and have natural female odor. Female aliens abduct young Brazilian rednecks for sex; foreplay includes rubbing them with some oil and a smoky environment. Oh, sex with them seems to be pretty good and they perform a variety of acts.
This gem can be found within Rramjet's top UFO cases somewhere at the start of his UFO evidence thread.
Google for Villas Boas abduction case for more details on this NSWF UFO case, accepted by UFOlogists as top quality stuff...
The working hypotheses of the article you mention are:
”If the UFO phenomenon is an artifact of culture one would reasonably expect that cultural antecedents could be recognized for the major features it presents. Extraterrestrials, however, should be independent of culture and if they are newly arrived their characteristics should represent a discontinuity with the past.” (http://magonia.haaan.com/1990/entir...cultural-background-of-ufo-abduction-reports/)
There are a number of unfounded assumptions in that hypothesis. Two are critically important:First that correlation equals causation. This is a fundamental error many novices in the world of science make. For example the article states:
”Bequette labeled the objects “flying saucers”, Arnold said the term arose from “a great deal of misunderstanding”. The public, however, did not know that. No drawing accompanied the story. People started looking for flying saucers and that is exactly what they found. They reported flat, circular objects that look like flying saucers sound like they should look like.”
First not only is it a factually incorrect statement (“saucers” were actually in a minority of reports – see Blue Book unknowns list for example - http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/bluebook.html) it assumes “correlation equals causation” for any reports that might have mentioned “saucers”.Second: it assumes “they” are “newly arrived” - but UFO sightings and related beings can be traced back (at least) many centuries. ETA: Which of course begs the question - Did UFOs follow popular culture or did "cultural depictions" of UFOs stem from the actual sightings over many centuries?
The rest of the article contains many other factual errors and unfounded assumptions - but it is simply beyond the scope of this thread to delineate them – However, if this is the article you base your knowledge and beliefs about UFOs and the abduction scenario on, then no wonder you don’t have a clear idea about what the abduction phenomenon is and what the research surrounding it concludes.
I provided you some links to get you started:
(http://www.forteantimes.com/features/fbi/2929/alien_abductions_revisited.html)
(http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html)
(http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Abduction_phenomenon)
Perhaps you should take advantage of them to gain an accurate perspective on the abduction phenomenon?
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Accidental Martyr
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Thanks, but I really don't need your help with anything, UFOs or otherwise. Perhaps you should contact Martin Kottmeyer and discuss your problems with his articles with him personally. Have a nice day.
If you can maintain Kottmeyer’s article is an “excellent article” in the face of evidence to the contrary - then quite obviously you do! (and of course you refusal to actually examine the evidence is not suprising to me - it is an attitude that seems quite ubiquitous among the debunking community)
No need. You referenced the article as a source for your beliefs. I merely pointed out the erroneous nature of the article. It is then up to you to reassess your beliefs in light of the evidence showing your beliefs to be based on false information and flawed and unfounded assumptions.Perhaps you should contact Martin Kottmeyer and discuss your problems with his articles with him personally. Have a nice day.
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Accidental Martyr
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If you would once again refer to my earlier posts, you would see (again) that I spent a significant portion of my life (probably over 30 years total) reading about and having an avid interest in the UFO phenomenon. After years of accepting the ETH I began to move away from that position. After many years of examining the "evidence" I have reached my current position, and you have reached yours. There is really nothing more to discuss. Have fun.
A UFO is an observed “flying” object that remains unidentified, despite sufficient identifying information being available, even after independent research has been conducted.
Of course many would contend that a UFO is merely an unidentified flying object to the observer at the time of the observation – but I believe that definition too broad and naturally will include many misidentified mundane objects. To me the term UFO should mean something that positively defies mundane explanation.
It is clear though UFO simply means “unidentified” flying object – the argument then becomes from whose perspective?
In my opinion, the UFO “phenomenon” is actually a set of phenomena that ranges from objective observable artefacts (such as “nuts and bolts” craft) to the purely experiential – which I strongly suspect is where the “abduction scenario” fits.
MontagK505
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Wikipedia was a fascinating read on this subject, but I don't like the idea of getting radiation poisoning afterward.
Be on your guard AWOMAMT* probably installed a false memory in this dudes head, just to throw us off our guard.
* Aliens With Obscure Motives And Magical Technology