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Real İslam is only in Quran

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If the real Islam is in the Quran and so many muslim peoples right from the beginning disagreed on which version of Islam the Quran supports, and every creed of Islam "proved" their rightness with Quranic verses (they still do so, I've read volumes of Islamic books that show different versions of Islam being supported by the Quran) then either Allah failed to convey his "ultimate" message to his believers or Allah is so evil that while not only he sends most of his nonbeliever-human-creatures for not believing his 7th century Arabic message, he also sends most of his believer-human-creatures to eternal hell for misunderstanding his 7th century Arabic message.
 
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winter salt said:
If the real Islam is in the Quran and so many muslim peoples right from the beginning disagreed on which version of Islam the Quran supports, and every creed of Islam "proved" their rightness with Quranic verses (they still do so, I've read volumes of Islamic books that show different versions of Islam being supported by the Quran) then either Allah failed to convey his "ultimate" message to his believers or Allah is so evil that while not only he sends most of his nonbeliever-human-creatures for not believing his 7th century Arabic message, he also sends most of his believer-human-creatures to eternal hell for misunderstanding his 7th century Arabic message.
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Indeed. Not only that, but this purported god failed before as well. He told the Jews, who got it wrong, so he incarnated as Jesus, to correct things, but that apparently failed again, hence the Prophet Mohammed. If he does exist, he's really bad at communicating, and also doesn't care how many people go to hell as a result of his ineptitude.
 
winter salt said:
If the real Islam is in the Quran and so many muslim peoples right from the beginning disagreed on which version of Islam the Quran supports, and every creed of Islam "proved" their rightness with Quranic verses (they still do so, I've read volumes of Islamic books that show different versions of Islam being supported by the Quran) then either Allah failed to convey his "ultimate" message to his believers or Allah is so evil that while not only he sends most of his nonbeliever-human-creatures for not believing his 7th century Arabic message, he also sends most of his believer-human-creatures to eternal hell for misunderstanding his 7th century Arabic message.
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It's like "Real Christianity" being in the bible.....
 
catsmate said:
It's like "Real Christianity" being in the bible.....
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It is. The denial of interpretation is quite congruent among fundamentalists across the religious spectrum. They hide their interpretations behind the illusion that they offer merely a natural reading of the text. This is a necessary corollary to their rejection of others' interpretations. Otherwise their approach would be correctly seen as simply advancing one interpretation over others. This is also how Originalism works in jurisprudence.
 
No religion exists in any book or books. Religions only exist inside the skulls of their adherents.

I mean that literally. Does that make me a Fundaskullist? A Cranioliteralist? A Bonehead?




Look, I'm still chugging late morning coffee. I'm doing my best. A little latitude here, please?
 
BOY THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER THEN BEING AN ECHO CHAMBER! SUCH A VITAL SERVICE TO DISCOURSE!
 
Emre_1974tr said:
God is always successful.
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No. The whole premise of a reformation is that God has previously failed. You're clearly a reformer here in the short term, and Islam is explicitly postured as a correction to the previous Abrahamic attempts that were once sanctioned but have gone astray. And since Islam has now devolved into warring factions, God has failed again.

He brings everyone to what they deserve. Those who are destined to go astray will deviate and end up in hell, while the good who deserve paradise are saved in this brief test/world of self-confrontation.
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I have no problem with people who think that. I only have a problem when people appoint themselves the instrument of their God's retribution and the agent of their God's commandments and make other people have to deal with it.

In my article "Fate and Free Will," I proved this with evidence.
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No. You simply state your thesis on the matter and offer your interpretation of the Qu'ran to support it. It's a religious exegesis, not a proposition supported by evidence. We don't care about your sectarian squabbles.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
God is always successful. He brings everyone to what they deserve. Those who are destined to go astray will deviate and end up in hell, while the good who deserve paradise are saved in this brief test/world of self-confrontation.

In my article "Fate and Free Will," I proved this with evidence.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612698.msg444702
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You so funny. You endlessly post long winded, mostly cut and past nonsense on a skeptics forum. I doubt you have persuaded a single person. Not one, nada, zip, zilch, zero.

You haven't proven crap. I doubt you understand what proof is. Or what constitutes evidence. But don't feel bad. I have heard Christians and Mormons peddle similar nonsense. Neither you or them can prove there is a paradise or a hell. Or that anyone will go to either place.. Or that there is a Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Odin, Thor, Zeuss or any other mythological being.

I keep wondering when mankind abandons all these silly, nonsensical ideas and stop letting these ridiculous myths started by our ignorant ancestors rule their lives. I look forward to that day.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
God is always successful. He brings everyone to what they deserve. Those who are destined to go astray will deviate and end up in hell, while the good who deserve paradise are saved in this brief test/world of self-confrontation.

In my article "Fate and Free Will," I proved this with evidence.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612698.msg444702
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I would rather take all the skin off my left leg with a dull potato peeler than click your links.
 
Craig4 said:
I would rather take all the skin off my left leg with a dull potato peeler than click your links.
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Out of idle curiosity, I actually did click the link. What I found was a great long wall of text.
Emre: you said you'd provided evidence in that link. However, after scrolling down for a very, very long time, all I could find were lots of quotes from the Qur'an. There wasn't any evidence. Did you post the wrong link? Where can I find this evidence you speak of?
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Out of idle curiosity, I actually did click the link. What I found was a great long wall of text.
Emre: you said you'd provided evidence in that link. However, after scrolling down for a very, very long time, all I could find were lots of quotes from the Qur'an. There wasn't any evidence. Did you post the wrong link? Where can I find this evidence you speak of?
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The claim in this forum was that God had not achieved His purpose. I responded by providing evidence from God's words, first showing what God's purpose was, and then demonstrating that He has fully accomplished this purpose and continues to do so. In short, in this forum, the purpose of God was not understood, the purpose of worldly life was not grasped, and the objectives of paradise and hell were not comprehended. I explained the purpose to those who did not understand, and then demonstrated that these purposes are being perfectly fulfilled.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
The claim in this forum was that God had not achieved His purpose. I responded by providing evidence from God's words, first showing what God's purpose was, and then demonstrating that He has fully accomplished this purpose and continues to do so. In short, in this forum, the purpose of God was not understood, the purpose of worldly life was not grasped, and the objectives of paradise and hell were not comprehended. I explained the purpose to those who did not understand, and then demonstrated that these purposes are being perfectly fulfilled.
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You've provided no evidence. This is a lie.

Pointing at the Quran and going "That's proof" is not evidence.

Repeating what the Quran says is not evidence.

THE QURAN IS GIBBERISH AND NOT EVIDENCE.

We are not impressed by the Quran.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
The claim in this forum was that God had not achieved His purpose. I responded by providing evidence from God's words, first showing what God's purpose was, and then demonstrating that He has fully accomplished this purpose and continues to do so. In short, in this forum, the purpose of God was not understood, the purpose of worldly life was not grasped, and the objectives of paradise and hell were not comprehended. I explained the purpose to those who did not understand, and then demonstrated that these purposes are being perfectly fulfilled.
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What the hell are you talking about? The only person in this forum that has made a claim in this forum is you.
  • You haven't demonstrated there is a God.
  • Let alone that God has a purpose.
  • Or that God has achieved that purpose.
All I see in this forum is crap. Fecal matter piled higher than anything you could find at the largest dairy farm. Personally, I think it stinks and carries diseases. Your religion is anti-science, anti-human and has caused almost as much misery and hatred than that other popular Abrahamic religion.

Do us all a favor. When you take a dump don't spread it online. Try flushing it. We'd appreciate it.
 
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Emre_1974tr said:
The claim in this forum was that God had not achieved His purpose. I responded by providing evidence from God's words, first showing what God's purpose was, and then demonstrating that He has fully accomplished this purpose and continues to do so.
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Thanks for simplifying your argument. I can see why you think your Qur'an quotations count as evidence, but let me explain why that doesn't work for skeptics.

Imagine there is a room—any old room with a door but no windows. It has a whiteboard on one wall, where people can write things. I go into this room alone and write, "JayUtah intends to levitate." Then sometime later, I write, "JayUtah levitated on this day." Then I walk out of the room.

One of my friends coming later into the room can see what I've written. And she might think, "Oh, wow, JayUtah actually levitated because he said so right here on this board. I recognize his handwriting, so I know it was him." Is that evidence of levitation? Imagine that unbeknownst to me, there was a security camera whose recorded footage covers the entire time I was in that room. Anyone can review the footage and see whether or not I actually levitated. That's objective evidence for my claim. My friend might know of that footage, but she might also feel really loyal to me and trust what I wrote on the whiteboard.

In short, in this forum, the purpose of God was not understood, the purpose of worldly life was not grasped, and the objectives of paradise and hell were not comprehended. I explained the purpose to those who did not understand, and then demonstrated that these purposes are being perfectly fulfilled.
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No, the problem is that you expect skeptics and atheists to understand your religion from the point of view of first having accepted it as true. You want us to trust what's written on the whiteboard. Your evidence—from that perspective—simply tests the internal consistency of what is written. I said I would levitate. And then I said I did. That's perfectly consistent. And if you're disposed to believe me unconditionally, then you'd think that was evidence of some feat that I performed.

However, skeptics operate according to the security camera footage. We have a lens on the claims of religion that is based more in history than in religious belief. From the purely historical perspective, we can see that religious truth claims have no objective evidence to support them. And on the point of God fulfilling his purposes, we have objective evidence that it has not happened, and that every religion has gone through periods of apostasy and renewal powered largely by what the human congregants want. Some religions go extinct altogether. We can point to sectarianism and reformations in Islam because we have objective evidence of them—what's akin to the security camera footage. And because we have this, we aren't convinced by debates over what's written on the whiteboards.

Until you can have a perspective on your religion that isn't seen from within the religion, you will make no headway in this forum and you will convince no one that you have a point they need to regard. You cannot begin your argument with the expectation that your critics believe in your religion, or in any religion. This is why I characterized your article as an exegesis, not a proof. Your critics don't misunderstand your claim. They simply don't accept the premise on which it is based.

In English, "exegesis" is an argument or a debate over some doctrinal point, but from the point of view of people who believe in the religious sources and accept them as evidence. They're usually applying defensible logic, but their premises are axiomatic and have no force outside their sphere of religious belief. Therefore the conclusions may be properly reasoned, but remain poorly founded from a larger perspective. And most importantly: the rigor of the reasoning does not prove premises taken as axioms. Since we don't believe in the authority of your sources, we don't care what conclusions you might want to draw logically from a premise of belief.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
The claim in this forum was that God had not achieved His purpose. I responded by providing evidence from God's words, first showing what God's purpose was, and then demonstrating that He has fully accomplished this purpose and continues to do so. In short, in this forum, the purpose of God was not understood, the purpose of worldly life was not grasped, and the objectives of paradise and hell were not comprehended. I explained the purpose to those who did not understand, and then demonstrated that these purposes are being perfectly fulfilled.
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You're using the Quran to prove the Quran. You need to establish that a god exists and that said god dictated what is in the Quran. You're telling us about a god's purpose without first establish your god friend exists.
 
Craig4 said:
You're using the Quran to prove the Quran. You need to establish that a god exists and that said god dictated what is in the Quran. You're telling us about a god's purpose without first establish your god friend exists.
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The old circular argument. I can't say just how many Christians have attempted that with the Holy Bible. I'm sure it's in the billions. When will theists understand? The book is the claim. Not the evidence.

And if you have to appeal to faith, you've already lost.
 
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