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Real İslam is only in Quran

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Islamic sects rely on strict adherence for the most part. You just don't question odd details or bother the imam with questions. They like it like this. The RCC changes the rules and fudged details to the point S. American catholics are a world apart from the Italian version but don't question or neither to note any differences. Thinking just complicates things. Strict adherence is limited to splinter sects that may or may not be officially recognized.

Yet both need the same set of fuzzy rules and open interpretation to survive. If gods spoke to us clearly and openly the entire idea of a church hierarchy is obsolete. They would all have to go get a job and learn a real skill.

Now they surely wouldn't want to do that.
 
JoeMorgue said:
And again the question of WHY, what purpose God's word being this open to interpretation serves and why God doesn't clarify everything hangs over all of this, one big never answered question.

Why does God speak in riddles and parables and "Game of Telephone" level translations stacking, all through third parties with their own agendas who can't agree? What purpose does this serve?

Why does God just not tell us himself, clearly and concisely? As I said earlier if these rules are so important why doesn't God snap his fingers and make it so there's a Bible on my nightstand, written in clear, non-parable direct English with no translation errors or stuff that needs some soothsayer with his own agenda to interpret for me, clearly laid out with an index and a glossary and a 1-800 number I can call if I have questions?

It, like many things, remains a question I am waiting for an answer on.
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It would also stop god's practice of killing thousands and thousands of people by means of natural disasters, as punishment for crimes of which they are unaware. If god would simply appear in the sky and shout 'Stop doing x!', I'm sure we'd all obey. Strangely, god doesn't do that: instead he hides silently behind natural disasters, and lets others tell us what we are being punished for. That these punishments are invariably an exact fit to the prejudices of these imams and preachers, is, I'm sure, a complete coincidence.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
It would also stop god's practice of killing thousands and thousands of people by means of natural disasters, as punishment for crimes of which they are unaware. If god would simply appear in the sky and shout 'Stop doing x!', I'm sure we'd all obey.
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Indeed. My workplace is a mosaic of mandated labels and warnings: OSHA, FAA, DOD, DOE, and even a few FDA. We even toyed with ISO-9000 back when that was a thing. Allah would be in so much trouble if running the universe was as subject to fair warning as the rest of our lives.

Strangely, god doesn't do that: instead he hides silently behind natural disasters, and lets others tell us what we are being punished for. That these punishments are invariably an exact fit to the prejudices of these imams and preachers, is, I'm sure, a complete coincidence.
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I live amongst quite a number of God-fearing people. Or at least God-wielding. 2020 was a bad year for us, as it was for the rest of the world.

There was that pestilence. The prophets, seers, and revelators who run the Mormon church were quite adamant that we protect each other in the workplace, wear masks, and get vaccinated. But a strangely prominent fraction of those people who professed to follow those preachers said masks were of the devil, workplaces couldn't mandate health guidelines, and vaccines were evil. And they somehow did it all in the name of "religion."

Just a week into the state's official lockdown, we had a 5.8 magnitude earthquake epicentered (no kidding) under my theater's scenery shop. Thankfully due to lockdown, no one was there. And all we lost was the brick facade and a couple of windows. No one was killed or seriously injured. My house is 450 meters from the Wasatch Fault, which they assure me is gonna let loose any day now. Why would God site his Mountain of the Lord's House in such a dangerous place? If all the righteous are supposed to flock to our little Mormon Mecca in the desert, how does that jibe with natural disasters being a punishment for the wicked?

And then in September of that year we had a hurricane. Yes, a hurricane in Utah. Winds down my street were clocked at just under 200 km/h. The meteorology of that is a bit interesting, but I won't go into it now. And in its aftermath, I joined my Mormon neighbors with our hard hats and chain saws to quickly clear neighborhood streets and sidewalks of fallen limbs, and check on our less mobile neighbors. It seems we atheists and those Mormons have a similar sense of community and charity in a crisis, but God was indiscriminately mad at us. Three old-growth evergreens, dozens of meters tall, were blown over onto one of the nearby Mormon meeting places, damaging its roof severely.

But since it's a theme in this thread, I'm sure it will be pointed out that Mormons don't enjoy Allah's good favor. They worship slightly the wrong monotheistic god, and therefore merit Allah's displeasure and punishment. But then there was that terrible earthquake last year in Turkey and Syria, two devoutly Muslim nations...
 
8enotto said:
Yet both need the same set of fuzzy rules and open interpretation to survive.
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That raises an interesting question. For the Bible we have a smattering of early texts in the original languages, and some fragments of early translations. I have the Nestle-Aland compendium of those texts, which gives me a reasonably good understanding of how the Bible should read. But of course the Bible has been translated countless times into all relevant languages. Most of us read the Bible in our native languages, using reasonably modern translations that benefit from ongoing scholarship. Yes, differences in translation cause disagreements among some Christians. Each sect addresses that differently, but the widely shared belief is that one doesn't need to know Hebrew to properly read the Old Testament, or Greek or Latin to properly read the New Testament.

In contrast, even though there are quite good English translations of the Qur'an, we are told they can only at best approximate the "true" meaning of the text. One must read the Qur'an in its original Arabic in order to arrive at the proper meaning. Okay, fine. I am not especially fluent in Arabic, but I can read enough to get around. So I read the Arabic Qur'an. But I'm told that since Arabic is not my native language, I still cannot come to the correct understanding of the text. So leaving aside the Hadith—which I'm happy doing for now—it still seems you need a native, expert understanding of Arabic in order to properly grasp the meaning of the Qur'an.

Isn't that rather inconsistent with the notion that the text of the Qur'an is clear and unmistakable? It seems the only people who can properly understand the Qur'an are in a category many of us can never belong to. No matter how much I study, I will never be a native speaker of Arabic. And somehow those native speakers of Arabic who venture to make an English translation still aren't competent to convey an accurate meaning. So are nonspeakers of Arabic just screwed according to Allah?
 
What we need is a pair of Thumim and Cumin specs ground for classical Arabspeak.

O! The carnal mind, the carnal mind!
 
Yeah, the parallel is striking. If you toss the Hadith, you need to toss a lot of Muhammed's own commentary on the Qur'an. Okay, fine, maybe you say they weren't faithfully preserved or whatever. But the point is that Muhammed didn't seem to think the text stood on its own. I wonder what Emre has to say about the traditional tafsirin, especially the early one that we all use and consider reasonably authoritative commentary.

Similarly there's a vast trove of recorded sermons in Mormonism call the Journal of Discourses. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all the early leaders of Mormonism didn't necessarily think the Book of Mormon stood on its own. What we see in these religions is that even though there is a canonical text, there are reams of interpretation dating from the very beginning of the religion. Journal of Discourses is pseudo-canon. Modern Mormon leaders and teachers cite from it judiciously. If you just pick up a random volume of it and read, however, you get a fairly comical exegesis that just doesn't fly today. So "officially" JD is not canon.

And there you have the desire to "get back to basics" as an ironic sectarian ploy. You jettison all the prior interpretation—including even some from the founders of your faith—and you supplant it with all new commentary stored on your blog, that you then style as simply "reading the plain text." It's a thoroughly blinkered approach to religion and canon.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
Well there's you problem.
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I say that Muhammad thought the sun orbits the earth, and Imams lie about it saying he meant the sun orbits the galaxy. It is difficult to prove them wrong without the hadith, because the Quran is obscure. But the true nature of Muhammad's lack of astronomical knowledge is revealed in verse 67.5. It says the stars are lamps that are missiles to throw at devils. Presumably Muhammad observed meteors and assumed they were the same as other stars, and were being thrown at devils.

Here are a number of translations of 67.5 to clarify what the verse really says.
Khalifa
We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.
Pickthall
And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.
Shakir
And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with ( lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.
Sherali
And verily, WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and WE have made them the means of driving away satans, and WE have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.
Yusufali
And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

Clearly all the verses say similar things about the stars, and I see no way Muslims can justify this verse.
 
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Nobody cares what any stupid magic books says. You can't counter his stupid magic book with your stupid magic book.
 
Pagan rajm(stoning) is in the pagan false Bible only.

Real holy book, Quran gives real datas:

2 – The adulteress and the adulterer should be flogged a hundred lashes (jalda) each. Do not be swayed by kindness from carrying out God’s law, if you believe in God and the Last Day. And the punishment should be witnessed by a group of believers.
24 The Light, 2

Quran corrects bible again.

No rajm.

http://quranic.org/rajm-stoning-to-death/

They are products of your hadith books. False Torah, False Injeels, Bukhari's books. Example stoning(rajm) is in the hadith books and in the your fake Bible. The headscarf, circumcision, stoning (rajm), attacks to others, communism, black stone are in your false Bible. Arab countries live according to your false biblical principles. And but Christian countries experiencing the teachings of the Koran(no rajm,no circumcision, no headscarf, and they live in wealth, luxury and science...).

In Quran no rajm(stoning), no circumcision, no headscarf, no communism, no attacks to others.

Today Muslims live like christians. And today christians live like Muslims.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Pagan rajm(stoning) is in the pagan false Bible only.

Real holy book, Quran gives real datas:

2 – The adulteress and the adulterer should be flogged a hundred lashes (jalda) each. Do not be swayed by kindness from carrying out God’s law, if you believe in God and the Last Day. And the punishment should be witnessed by a group of believers.
24 The Light, 2

Quran corrects bible again.

No rajm.

http://quranic.org/rajm-stoning-to-death/

They are products of your hadith books. False Torah, False Injeels, Bukhari's books. Example stoning(rajm) is in the hadith books and in the your fake Bible. The headscarf, circumcision, stoning (rajm), attacks to others, communism, black stone are in your false Bible. Arab countries live according to your false biblical principles. And but Christian countries experiencing the teachings of the Koran(no rajm,no circumcision, no headscarf, and they live in wealth, luxury and science...).

In Quran no rajm(stoning), no circumcision, no headscarf, no communism, no attacks to others.

Today Muslims live like christians. And today christians live like Muslims.
Click to expand...

But you are Turkish. And the Turks despise Arabic language, and very few speak it at all. So how do you know you are interpreting the Arabic Quran correctly?
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Pagan rajm(stoning) is in the pagan false Bible only.

Real holy book, Quran gives real datas:

2 – The adulteress and the adulterer should be flogged a hundred lashes (jalda) each. Do not be swayed by kindness from carrying out God’s law, if you believe in God and the Last Day. And the punishment should be witnessed by a group of believers.
24 The Light, 2

Quran corrects bible again.

No rajm.

http://quranic.org/rajm-stoning-to-death/

They are products of your hadith books. False Torah, False Injeels, Bukhari's books. Example stoning(rajm) is in the hadith books and in the your fake Bible. The headscarf, circumcision, stoning (rajm), attacks to others, communism, black stone are in your false Bible. Arab countries live according to your false biblical principles. And but Christian countries experiencing the teachings of the Koran(no rajm,no circumcision, no headscarf, and they live in wealth, luxury and science...).

In Quran no rajm(stoning), no circumcision, no headscarf, no communism, no attacks to others.

Today Muslims live like christians. And today christians live like Muslims.
Click to expand...

I read that a goat ate the Quran pages which authorized stoning adulterers.

There is certainly a hadith in which Muhammad orders a stoning.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
All troubles and disasters are actually Allah's punishment for us. But if we struggle against these disasters and overcome them, what we deserve this time will be beauty.

Allah creates in various ways. He says in His verses that He has created all technological blessings. So the things created through human endeavour are actually God's creation.

In this context, if we overcome diseases or eliminate other troubles through science and technology, God has actually created these beauties. We are again given what we deserve. Already in the verses we are commanded to fight against evil, disease and poverty.

It is God's command to make the world a like paradise.
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Don't be silly, there are no gods.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
If the purpose was to eliminate earthquakes completely, God would never have created earthquakes. The purpose here is to prevent the earth from becoming a complete hell, to curb it. To make the earth a habitable planet.
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:rolleyes: Rubbish.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Pagan rajm(stoning) is in the pagan false Bible only.

Real holy book, Quran gives real datas...
Click to expand...

No, there's nothing "real" about it. The Qur'an simply prescribes a different secular punishment for an offense that's mentioned in both cases. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that every instance in which the Qur'an is different than the Bible is not an instance where it's better than the Bible? Every single one of your claims proceeds from the assumption that the Qur'an is correct, whereafter you just reason in a circle.

Today Muslims live like christians. And today christians live like Muslims.
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Literally none of this matters to us atheists, who don't generally want to be forced to live either like Christians or Muslims. We look instead to rational thought and empirically-defensible inquiry to develop the rules by which we should all live, whether religious or not. Telling us that Islam is a better way to live than Christianity is not really a discussion we're interested in.

What interests us more is when you claim your religion gives better answers than empirically-verified scientific inquiry or well-reasoned thought. When we press you on those questions, you have no satisfying answers.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
Pagan rajm(stoning) is in the pagan false Bible only.

Real holy book, Quran gives real datas:

2 – The adulteress and the adulterer should be flogged a hundred lashes (jalda) each. Do not be swayed by kindness from carrying out God’s law, if you believe in God and the Last Day. And the punishment should be witnessed by a group of believers.
24 The Light, 2

Quran corrects bible again.

No rajm.

http://quranic.org/rajm-stoning-to-death/

They are products of your hadith books. False Torah, False Injeels, Bukhari's books. Example stoning(rajm) is in the hadith books and in the your fake Bible. The headscarf, circumcision, stoning (rajm), attacks to others, communism, black stone are in your false Bible. Arab countries live according to your false biblical principles. And but Christian countries experiencing the teachings of the Koran(no rajm,no circumcision, no headscarf, and they live in wealth, luxury and science...).

In Quran no rajm(stoning), no circumcision, no headscarf, no communism, no attacks to others.

Today Muslims live like christians. And today christians live like Muslims.
Click to expand...

As can be seen, there is no rajm (stoning), headscarf, communism, black stone, aggression/oppression, circumcision in the Qur'an, i.e. in Islam.

And there are no practices such as holy people, poverty and asceticism in the Qur'an. But these are again in the false Bible.

Islam forbids them. Holy Quran forbids these pagan beliefs and practices in the false Bible. In the same way, the holy Qur'an forbids slavery, whereas the false Bible allows slavery.
 
Emre_1974tr said:
And according to the Koran, hell is finite( It will be executed one day with its contents, that is, it will be destroyed), but paradise is eternal.

It is not only in the field of religion that experts and majority mislead people, but in every field, from medicine to astrophysics, so-called experts have wrong beliefs in their own fields for various reasons and impose them on humanity.

Humanity has seen the latest example in medicine with vaccines and wrong treatments.
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What nonsense are you blathering on about now?
 
Emre_1974tr said:
As can be seen, there is no rajm (stoning), headscarf, communism, black stone, aggression/oppression, circumcision in the Qur'an, i.e. in Islam.

And there are no practices such as holy people, poverty and asceticism in the Qur'an. But these are again in the false Bible.

Islam forbids them. Holy Quran forbids these pagan beliefs and practices in the false Bible. In the same way, the holy Qur'an forbids slavery, whereas the false Bible allows slavery.
Click to expand...

In atheism you will find no stoning, ritual mutilation and mandated dress, holy offices, poverty, or slavery. Having no religion is better than your religion, or any religion. You can stop trying to preach to the atheists. We don't care about your sectarian squabbles.
 
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