Rahm Emanuel Also Has A Union Problem

[Alt+F4]

Good for him! far better to send those who don't want to be there somewhere else, where they won't disrupt the education of the students who actually want to learn. Why should the good students have to be the ones getting sent elsewhere, and then only if they win a lottery or happen to live in the "good" school boundary?

That's the trouble with charter schools, many don't take on the more difficult students. As for "somewhere else", yeah that's what charter schools do, toss the kids who need more attention under the bus.

 

[WildCat]

This doesn't address what I posted.

Sure sounded like it, all I heard was excuses for falure.

Again, how is Emanuel going to rate teachers on performance?

If the kid is in the 15th percentile when you get him, and is in the 30th percentile when he leaves the class I'd think that's evidence of a good teacher. OTOH, if the kid is in the 80th percentile when you get them and in the 50th by the time he leaves, maybe you're not such a good teacher. But obviopusly, you don;t just pick one random kid in the class as a benchmark, you look at the whole class. If the entire class drops down significantly in the rankings under your tutelage I think that's a pretty good indicator of a bad teacher.

New teachers have a lot of enthusiasm but not many skills. That takes two to three years to develop. In those first years are these new teachers "bad"? What about a veteran teacher who takes on a student teacher? It's still the vet's name on the report card and tests. We know the student teacher isn't going to do such a great job. Is that vet teacher now "bad"?

The issue isn't new teachers, they can be fired much more easily. It's the burned-out teacher with tenure who's just going through the motions until their pension is vested* that is the problem. As for your example of the veteran teacher who takes on a student, it's still the veteran teacher's classroom.

You could have the best teacher in the entire world but if a student is disruptive, absent often or has poor English skills how is that the teacher's fault? What exactly, precisely makes a teacher "bad"?

Oh please, any 4th grader can tell the good teachers from the bad, and who they can push around and which ones won't put up with disruptions.

It's a cop-out to say "bad teachers" should go, but not provide any fair way to determine who these individuals are. You don't seem to have the answers and neither does Emanuel.

I just gave you the answer.

Are there any measures of performance and accountability at all you would accept?

*another reason to eliminate pensions in favor of a 401(k) type plan

 

[WildCat]

That's the trouble with charter schools, many don't take on the more difficult students. As for "somewhere else", yeah that's what charter schools do, toss the kids who need more attention under the bus.

Wouldn't it be nice if the non-charter schools were the good schools, and the relatively few charter schools had to handle the troubled kids? You're giving the impression that the vast majority of the kids in your system don't speak English or are mentally unstable or have learning disabilities. Can't possibly be true.

 

[respect]

It it typical to dismissed teachers to take the appeal all the way to the Illinois Supreme court, or did the person who made the graphic just lie about that?

So the rest is okay then or are you just deflecting?

 

[respect]

This doesn't address what I posted. Again, how is Emanuel going to rate teachers on performance? New teachers have a lot of enthusiasm but not many skills. That takes two to three years to develop. In those first years are these new teachers "bad"? What about a veteran teacher who takes on a student teacher? It's still the vet's name on the report card and tests. We know the student teacher isn't going to do such a great job. Is that vet teacher now "bad"?

You could have the best teacher in the entire world but if a student is disruptive, absent often or has poor English skills how is that the teacher's fault? What exactly, precisely makes a teacher "bad"?

It's a cop-out to say "bad teachers" should go, but not provide any fair way to determine who these individuals are. You don't seem to have the answers and neither does Emanuel.

In your view is there any way to determine that a teacher is doing a poor job?

 

[Alt+F4]

Sure sounded like it, all I heard was excuses for falure.

Then read it again.

If the kid is in the 15th percentile when you get him, and is in the 30th percentile when he leaves the class I'd think that's evidence of a good teacher.

I agree with you but Obama, Duncun and Emanuel don't. All they care about is passing percentages on standardized tests, they care not one bit if kids learn anything or not.

But obviopusly, you don;t just pick one random kid in the class as a benchmark, you look at the whole class. If the entire class drops down significantly in the rankings under your tutelage I think that's a pretty good indicator of a bad teacher.

The entire class? You're unlikely in Chicago or NYC to have the same entire class from September to June in high school. Then factor in what the teacher doesn't have control over - learning disabilities, limited English, absenteeism, etc.

The issue isn't new teachers, they can be fired much more easily. It's the burned-out teacher with tenure who's just going through the motions until their pension is vested* that is the problem. As for your example of the veteran teacher who takes on a student, it's still the veteran teacher's classroom.

In NYC (the largest school district in the U.S.) teachers are vested after just 5 years, so burn out isn't an issue with them. I can't make a student teacher a great teacher in one or two semesters, yet it's still my name connected to those kids.

Oh please, any 4th grader can tell the good teachers from the bad, and who they can push around and which ones won't put up with disruptions.

Ask a 4th grader. The "good teacher" is the one that never gives any homework and let's us watch movies all the time!

Are there any measures of performance and accountability at all you would accept?

Yes, but they are not easy and they are not cheap. Totally revamp how teachers are educated on the college level, many more classroom observations, strategies to deal with teacher burn-out (which occurs usually after year 10), creative (and USEFULL) professional development opportunities, meaningful input from parents and students, effective ways to help teachers who are struggling.

NOT standardized tests.

 

[Alt+F4]

Wouldn't it be nice if the non-charter schools were the good schools, and the relatively few charter schools had to handle the troubled kids?

Who goes to charter schools? Yes, the kids who have parents that are involved enough with their education to make that effort.

You're giving the impression that the vast majority of the kids in your system don't speak English or are mentally unstable or have learning disabilities. Can't possibly be true.

Me personally, no. But who do you think is full-time teaching the English language learners? ESL teachers. Who do you think is full-time teaching the special education students? Special Education teachers. Who do you think is teaching the severely disabled students that will never live on their own? How should Mayor Emanuel rate these teacher's performances?

 

[Alt+F4]

In your view is there any way to determine that a teacher is doing a poor job?

Yes. Observations, observations, observations. Of course, this involves much administration time that school districts are unwilling to pay for. It's just easier and cheaper to yell "bad teachers!" and ignore everything else.

 

[respect]

Yes. Observations, observations, observations. Of course, this involves much administration time that school districts are unwilling to pay for. It's just easier and cheaper to yell "bad teachers!" and ignore everything else.

Alternatively, it seems it may be cheaper just to ignore bad teachers. A meeting in the middle shouldn't be that hard to come about. If a teacher's students appear to be slipping under their guidance, the administration takes an interest and pokes around, with direct observation being one of their tools. This is hardly rocket science and shouldn't take several years to accomplish. Do you think the teacher's unions would find this acceptable?

 

[respect]

Who do you think is teaching the severely disabled students that will never live on their own? How should Mayor Emanuel rate these teacher's performances?

Standardized coloring books.

 

[Meadmaker]

And just how is Emanuel going to rate teachers by performance? How is he going to factor in in transience, parental apathy, learning disabilities, drug addiction, long-term abseentism, poverty, and/or limited English skills.

How is he going rate teacher performance in classes that don't have standardized tests?

If there are charter schools available, the parents will find a way to rate the teachers, and they will express those ratings through their choice of schools.

At that point, the public schools better have some way to rate teachers as well, because if they have no way of rating teachers, they'll end up keeping a bunch of bad ones, and parents will abandon the public schools.

Of course, they already do that without charter schools. They do it by moving to the suburbs when their kids turn four years old. In Detroit, that tendency has at least diminished slightly since Michigan embraced charter schools. Parents have an alternative now.

Over the years, I've read an awful lot about school choice via vouchers, charters, or other means. The stories are very consistent. The programs are widely embraced. There are no educational miracles, but there are strong indications that both public and private schools improve when competition is introduced. Meanwhile, there is no real down side. Read an anti-choice web site, and what you will find is, "If it weren't for those charters/vouchers/etc. the public schools would have had more money, and we could have fixed the problems."

 

[Neally]

Yes, but they are not easy and they are not cheap. Totally revamp how teachers are educated on the college level,

Not a measure of accountability.

many more classroom observations

How do you observe without influencing the teacher behavior. Hidden cameras? Then when the observer sees unacceptable performance, should they have the right to fire the teacher?

strategies to deal with teacher burn-out (which occurs usually after year 10), creative (and USEFULL) professional development opportunities,

Not measures of accountability.

meaningful input from parents and students

So parents and students should be able to vote a teacher off their job?

effective ways to help teachers who are struggling.

Not a measure of accountability.

NOT standardized tests.

Funny, the study done by Bill Gates Foundation found it to be very effective.

Yes. Observations, observations, observations. Of course, this involves much administration time that school districts are unwilling to pay for. It's just easier and cheaper to yell "bad teachers!" and ignore everything else.

So if observation by admin. results in them yelling "bad teacher", they should be fired right?

 

[WildCat]

Then read it again.

I did. Sounds like a grown-up version of "the dog ate my homework again, teacher".

I agree with you but Obama, Duncun and Emanuel don't. All they care about is passing percentages on standardized tests, they care not one bit if kids learn anything or not.

It's my understandfing that this is exactly what he wants to do.

The entire class? You're unlikely in Chicago or NYC to have the same entire class from September to June in high school. Then factor in what the teacher doesn't have control over - learning disabilities, limited English, absenteeism, etc.

Ever hear of prorating? And why the hell are you sticking kids with learning disdabilities, who don't speak English, and who are disruptive/absent in the same class as kids who aren't in those categories? Don't they have any rights, or must we have a race to the bottom determined by the lowest common denominator?

In NYC (the largest school district in the U.S.) teachers are vested after just 5 years, so burn out isn't an issue with them. I can't make a student teacher a great teacher in one or two semesters, yet it's still my name connected to those kids.

Are the student teachers in charge of your classroom?

Ask a 4th grader. The "good teacher" is the one that never gives any homework and let's us watch movies all the time!

So if a 4th grader can figure this out why can't the adults? (obviously replace "good" with "bad")

Yes, but they are not easy and they are not cheap. Totally revamp how teachers are educated on the college level, many more classroom observations, strategies to deal with teacher burn-out (which occurs usually after year 10), creative (and USEFULL) professional development opportunities, meaningful input from parents and students, effective ways to help teachers who are struggling.

How do those measures address the problems you described earlier in this post?

NOT standardized tests.

How does one compare different classrooms/schools/districts without standardized tests? Because guess what's going to determine to a large extent who's getting into college and who's not - a standardized test (ACT, SAT). Without them the temptation for social promotion is just too great, as we have seen in the past.

 

[Alt+F4]

If there are charter schools available, the parents will find a way to rate the teachers, and they will express those ratings through their choice of schools.

Under NCLB every student is permitted to leave a failing school. Notices are sent out at the end of the year and it's easy in NYC at least, to see a school's report card online. Very few parents move their kids. The solution is to make all schools successful so those kids who don't have a high level of parental involvement get a good education too.

At that point, the public schools better have some way to rate teachers as well, because if they have no way of rating teachers, they'll end up keeping a bunch of bad ones, and parents will abandon the public schools.

Well how are they rated in charter schools?

Read an anti-choice web site, and what you will find is, "If it weren't for those charters/vouchers/etc. the public schools would have had more money, and we could have fixed the problems."

Many charter school get globs of money from the private sector. Whether it's a public school or a charter school it's not about the money, it's about parental involvement. Do you really think that the parents who jump through the hoops to get their kids into a charter school stop their involvement as soon as the acceptance letter arrives?

 

[Alt+F4]

Ever hear of prorating? And why the hell are you sticking kids with learning disdabilities, who don't speak English, and who are disruptive/absent in the same class as kids who aren't in those categories? Don't they have any rights, or must we have a race to the bottom determined by the lowest common denominator?

What are we supposed to do, lock these kids in the basement because they will bring down our test scores. Everyone is entitled to an education, even those that don't want it, and those who can't do it.

In addition, if we have a teacher performance system based on test results what teacher is gonna want to teach these kids?

Are the student teachers in charge of your classroom?

You don't become a good teacher the momement you get out of a teacher's college. It takes time. How does someone learn to control 30 8-year olds while at the same time trying to teach them something? Then throw in the fact that children learn differently. Teaching is a skill that usually improves with time.

How does one compare different classrooms/schools/districts without standardized tests? Because guess what's going to determine to a large extent who's getting into college and who's not - a standardized test (ACT, SAT). Without them the temptation for social promotion is just too great, as we have seen in the past.

No one is suggesting dumping standardized tests, they are just a poor indicator of teacher performance. Do we really want a system where children are tested constantly, and in subjects that don't even have standardized tests? Standardizes tests don't prove that someone has learned something, it just shows who's a good test-taker.

 

[Alt+F4]

How do you observe without influencing the teacher behavior. Hidden cameras? Then when the observer sees unacceptable performance, should they have the right to fire the teacher?

Unannounced observations. Have the Assistant Principal just walk in, see what the class is doing and take notes

So parents and students should be able to vote a teacher off their job?

No, but they are the consumers and should have some say. In NYC we do this through questionnaires but I don't think it's very effective.

Funny, the study done by Bill Gates Foundation found it to be very effective.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is an educational joke. No wonder Bill has moved on to polio eradication as his pet project.

So if observation by admin. results in them yelling "bad teacher", they should be fired right?

No, but that's how it's done now.

 

[Meadmaker]

The solution is to make all schools successful ...

I wonder why no one ever thought of that?

Let's be real. Some kids will fail. If we concentrate a bunch of failing kids into the same school, that school will fail. It doesn't matter who you hire or how much you pay them, if education isn't a high priority for the parents, it won't be for the kids, and the school will fail. Our public school system guarantees that a whole bunch of uninvolved parents will be clustered together, and that will produce a failing school, and because the school attendance is closely correlated with where you live, there will be a failing neighborhood.

There is no solution that doesn't involve school choice, because I will not send my child to a school with a whole lot of failures. Under our current public school system, what that means is that if I live in a bad neighborhood, I will move before my child starts school, because I know that it doesn't matter how good the teachers are, or how many there are, or how much they are paid, if his classmates are children of a bunch of uninvolved, uninterested, not very bright parents, then his classmates will be on that path as well, and they will drag him down. Therefore, I will be absolutely certain that my kid doesn't go to school with them. With public schools as the only choice, I'll move.

Well how are they rated in charter schools?

If parents think that the teachers stink, they don't re-enroll their children.

It's an informal system, but administrators still pay close attention to it.

Do you really think that the parents who jump through the hoops to get their kids into a charter school stop their involvement as soon as the acceptance letter arrives?

Exactly. That's why it is so important to have those schools. A parent who sends his kid to that school will see that not only his own child, but also his child's classmates, are likely to be people who care about their children's education, and are actually willing to do the work to be involved in it. If no such school exists, then they will pack up and head to the suburbs where such a school exists. Of course, to do that, they have to have enough money to afford the higher housing costs, which results in extreme income based segregation. If you are poor, and the public school is the only option available, there is no way to send your kid to a school where parents value their education.

 

[Alt+F4]

That's why it is so important to have those schools. A parent who sends his kid to that school will see that not only his own child, but also his child's classmates, are likely to be people who care about their children's education, and are actually willing to do the work to be involved in it. If no such school exists, then they will pack up and head to the suburbs where such a school exists. Of course, to do that, they have to have enough money to afford the higher housing costs, which results in extreme income based segregation. If you are poor, and the public school is the only option available, there is no way to send your kid to a school where parents value their education.

Being poor doesn't prevent a parent from being involved in their kid's education and in big cities you don't have to move to get your kid into a better school. NYC rates schools from A-F yet parents still send their kids to D and F schools even though there are better schools in the neighboorhood. Last year when the Department of Ed. tried to close 19 failing schools parents and students joined with teachers to stop the closings. They didn't want their schools closed, they wanted them improved.

 

[Neally]

Unannounced observations. Have the Assistant Principal just walk in, see what the class is doing and take notes

Isn't this done now? And if the observation report is negative, should the teacher be able to be fired?

No, but they are the consumers and should have some say. In NYC we do this through questionnaires but I don't think it's very effective.

So how does their say enter into accountability if their input can't be used to fire a bad teacher?

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is an educational joke. No wonder Bill has moved on to polio eradication as his pet project.

Ad hom with no supporting evidence. Exactly what about their study that showed that testing can determine the teachers' performance is a joke?

No, but that's how it's done now.

How then are observations used to keep teachers accountable for their performance if the observations can't be used to get rid of bad teachers?

 

[Meadmaker]

Being poor doesn't prevent a parent from being involved in their kid's education and in big cities you don't have to move to get your kid into a better school. NYC rates schools from A-F yet parents still send their kids to D and F schools even though there are better schools in the neighboorhood. Last year when the Department of Ed. tried to close 19 failing schools parents and students joined with teachers to stop the closings. They didn't want their schools closed, they wanted them improved.

So there must be schools of choice within the public schools, right? That's why parents have a choice, I'm assuming. They can stay within the public schools system, but not send their kid to an F school.

I would never send my kid to an F school. They do send their kids to F schools. That's the difference between me and them, and that's why schools where those people send their kids will always be F schools. Yes, they want those schools improved, and they are willing to wait until somebody else does something about it, rather than taking the initiatiative to take advantage of the opportunities available.

If public schools can offer meaningful choice, then good for them. If not, charter schools are another way. In other districts, vouchers have been used successfully. The key is meaningful choice. I favor any program that offers it.