Questions. Simply.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

what chu cant read/ did I say they were vitcims in large caps letters/a/a/ now/ fhrf 'slfj

this bhas nothign to do with what I believe...i knwo th etruth - i wna t to show how unbelivable illogial your belief are thogh...

dying doesn't make youa hero, a vicitm isn't a hero if that were true all the poepl who died on 9/11 eoud be heros - the only heros of 9/11 were the rescue workers...

Wow. If your thinking is as butchered as your spelling, it's no wonder you have trouble with the reality of 9/11.

 

[Horatius]

And people wonder why folks such JREF spend so much time trying to slap these fools down.

As Herbet Morrison exclaimed during the crash of the Hindenburg. "Oh the Humanity"

We just have to remember that one Mark Bingham is worth a hell of a lot of twoofers. With men like that in the world, we can't be too bad off.

We spend so much time talking to the loons, we lose sight of that.

 

[T.A.M.]

We just have to remember that one Mark Bingham is worth a hell of a lot of twoofers. With men like that in the world, we can't be too bad off.

We spend so much time talking to the loons, we lose sight of that.

I agree 100%. It is for the people like Mark Bingham that I feel so strongly about 9/11. I do this so the fence sitters see the REAL truth, but the people I do this for, in honor of so to speak, are the Mark Bingham's of the world.

TAM

 

[Quad4_72]

I know your sig man. You know what? Sometimes people reveal their true selves when irritated. I do sometimes that on purpose. I know the calls could have been made etc. I see a theory on the net and ask, what is your reaction to that. That is/was never my own theory. Seeing how people react to that gives some basis on what they truly base their believes on. And what they are as people. From this short period of time I can already see, whose posts are worth a notice, and who's not. But that aside, everything deserves at least a look, not just the shaking of shoulder, even the dumbest thing that one single person has noticed. They might be useful in other contexts if not the current. And some things I really wonder. That Osama future plan for example. Thinking they could take the retaliation, could he really think like that? Or just take whatever comes and simply go hiding, leaving his former haven and protectors behind.

Well all that you wrote is well and good but it really has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Can you see that the flight recorders could be destroyed with enough heat, force, and damage? Or do you still believe that they are indestructible as Loose Change would like you to believe?

 

[Horatius]

I agree 100%. It is for the people like Mark Bingham that I feel so strongly about 9/11. I do this so the fence sitters see the REAL truth, but the people I do this for, in honor of so to speak, are the Mark Bingham's of the world.

TAM

I'm reminded of Heinlein's essay for the "This I Believe" Series. This bit in particular:

"I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime yet for every criminal there are 10,000 honest, decent, kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up. Business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news. It is buried in the obituaries, but is a force stronger than crime. I believe in the patient gallantry of nurses and the tedious sacrifices of teachers. I believe in the unseen and unending fight against desperate odds that goes on quietly in almost every home in the land.

"I believe in the honest craft of workmen. Take a look around you. There never were enough bosses to check up on all that work. From Independence Hall to the Grand Coulee Dam, these things were built level and square by craftsmen who were honest in their bones.

 

[T.A.M.]

Horatius:

That Essay is fantastic. He says so much in so few words. My favorite segment is the following:

From Heinlein's Essay:

"And finally, I believe in my whole race. Yellow, white, black, red, brown. In the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability, and goodness of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being. I believe that we have come this far by the skin of our teeth. That we always make it just by the skin of our teeth, but that we will always make it. Survive. Endure. I believe that this hairless embryo with the aching, oversize brain case and the opposable thumb, this animal barely up from the apes will endure. Will endure longer than his home planet -- will spread out to the stars and beyond, carrying with him his honesty and his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage and his noble essential decency.

TAM

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Horatius:

That Essay is fantastic. He says so much in so few words. My favorite segment is the following:

From Heinlein's Essay:



TAM

reminds me of a quote from babylon 5 (one of my favorites)

We have to stay here [outer space]. And there's a simple reason why. Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes... [and] all of this... all of this... was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars.

 

[ref]

Well all that you wrote is well and good but it really has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Can you see that the flight recorders could be destroyed with enough heat, force, and damage? Or do you still believe that they are indestructible as Loose Change would like you to believe?

Nothing is indestructable. Everything can be destroyed with enought heat, force and damage. Except perhaps stupidity and other human flaws But everything material.

Honestly, I tried to search for the WTC FDR topic, but couldn't find any. Then thought what the hell, let's see what is the reaction on this since I had no previous material to compare.

They are quite hard to destruct though.

"A recorder must be able to withstand an acceleration of 3400 g (33 km/s²) acceleration for 6.5 millisecondshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millisecond. This is roughly equivalent to an impact velocity of 270 knots and a deceleration or crushing distance of 450 mm. Additionally, there are requirements for penetration resistance, static crush, high and low temperature fires, deep sea pressure, sea water immersion, and fluid immersion."

They are also located in the tail section, so that the entire body of the aircraft reduces the shock.

Also,

"Also, modern FDRs are typically double wrapped, in strong corrosion-resistant stainless steel or titanium, with high-temperature insulation inside. Additionally, since the recorders are sometimes crushed into unreadable pieces, or never located, most modern units are self-ejecting (taking advantage of kinetic energy at impact to separate themselves from the aircraft)."

Saw no self ejection here however. Still some tough sob's those FDR's. But nothing can take anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_data_recorder

 

[ref]

Well all that you wrote is well and good but it really has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. Can you see that the flight recorders could be destroyed with enough heat, force, and damage? Or do you still believe that they are indestructible as Loose Change would like you to believe?

BTW. I never said they were indestructible. People here tend to put words in some peoples mouths.

 

[ref]

I believe you are referring to the LC post made by IVXX. However I personally would not call it sensible.

We consider these events with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, but we and our lords and masters are not so good at predictions.

For strong LIHOP we need to accept that the conspirators knew exactly how things would pan out both on the day and subsequently.

To know that a terrorist attack was going to take place and either hinder the counter terrorism operation or pro-actively facilitate the terrorist act would mean that those pulling the strings would need to be certain that -

1. Their involvement could be covered up

2. That the act itself would be sufficient to acheive whatever nefarious aims they had

3. That the attack wouldn't be so extreme as to seriously cripple their ability to carry out whatever their nefarious aims were

4. That the backlash from the attacks wouldn't be directed at them

5. That they wouldn't embolden (or embiggen) the terrorists by allowing this one act to take place and thus open pandoras box

6. That they themselves would face physical danger (after all rummy was at the pentagon)

The terrorist attacks on 9/11 were planned and executed apparently without flaw, but ultimately they were chaotic events with no guarantee of precision or effectiveness.

The aftermath of 9/11 could have easily been a witch hunt within the US government with major players finding themselves held to account, or a mass of accusations from those tasked with protecting the US claiming that they were obstructed or hindered in that task.

We only see a possible chain of events because that happens to be how it panned out after the attacks, but rather like the Iraq war where we were assured that wmd existed and that liberation of iraq would be universally welcomed and it would all be virtually self financing, none of these things has come to pass and could well have lead to Bush failing to get a second term had the democrats been more effective in their campaign.

So ultimately to believe LIHOP we must believe that the conspirators wanted the outcome which we see today, and quite frankly if that is the case you have to wonder why they would have even bothered.

I see what you are saying. I would still like to see IVXX here debating with you on the alternative theories, rather than 28th. 28th pick up your act.

The pandora's box topic is more an issue of politics rather than 9/11. What has really opened the box is the ever growing hatred on US policies worldwide. Rather than brought more stable global environment, the actions have only fueled more hate and widened the gap between countries, religions etc. But that is not an issue of conspiracy theories. That belongs to the politics forum.

 

[ref]

So you don't think it's feasible that al Qaeda would not appreciate the consequences of their actions, but you do think it's feasible that "inside jobbers" would attempt this enormous (much larger than al Qaeda's plan) enterprise and enormous coverup, without fear of the consequences if one person spilled the beans?

Do you know what that is, ref?

Insane, that's what that is.

You lower yourself too much to namecalling in this board. You have great points Gravy/M, speak with them. You make too hasty conclusions. I never mentioned inside jobbers. It would be as insane not to take into account the backlash at homefront if there ever was an inside job. Everytime I try to figure out the thinking from some other perspective, everyone keeps putting CT words in my mouth.

I was thinking from their perspective. How insane that may be. If you recall what I actually said was two options. Osama either thought they could take the US like they did Soviet Union in the 80'es, or he never even thought to fight but abandoned his old buddies and went hiding. That is all I said. Stop assuming anything beyond that, please.

 

[ref]

I appreciate the sentiment, but what are the "true" truther claims?

This is a serious question. I really want to know what claims you think are backed by evidence.

What I really would be looking for, is more co-operation between the sides. Right now you are in and endless situation. The other side makes claims, and the other side debunks them. Then comes namecalling and ridiculing. After that the wall between the sides grows even more.

You and I want to respect all relatives. But there are still families who still have questions. They still feel they have not been treated well in the aftermath. What good does this endless pickering do to them? Nothing.

I'm not trying to make the world a better place or anything. But I would like to see people sit on the same table. A bit like You with the LC guys. But it requires a lot. It requires that everybody must make sacrifices. Admit that they are not always right, maybe change their beliefs on major topics. Or even agree to take a look at a specific topic from another point of view. Maybe the families still have some very open issues? Let's find if there are any and see if we can make any conclusions. That would make more sense.

How to make the sides closer? I have no idea. But this endless namecalling and defending of own positions does nothing to the people who actually have had a part in this tragedy.

Thank You.

 

[Dog Town]

What I really would be looking for, is more co-operation between the sides. Right now you are in and endless situation. The other side makes claims, and the other side debunks them. Then comes namecalling and ridiculing.

This is a result of the CT "side", not letting go of their nonsense. Instead they repeat the same debunked rubbish, overe, and over! Gets old.

 

[beachnut]

What I really would be looking for, is more co-operation between the sides. Right now you are in and endless situation. The other side makes claims, and the other side debunks them. Then comes namecalling and ridiculing. After that the wall between the sides grows even more.

You and I want to respect all relatives. But there are still families who still have questions. They still feel they have not been treated well in the aftermath. What good does this endless pickering do to them? Nothing.

I'm not trying to make the world a better place or anything. But I would like to see people sit on the same table. A bit like You with the LC guys. But it requires a lot. It requires that everybody must make sacrifices. Admit that they are not always right, maybe change their beliefs on major topics. Or even agree to take a look at a specific topic from another point of view. Maybe the families still have some very open issues? Let's find if there are any and see if we can make any conclusions. That would make more sense.

How to make the sides closer? I have no idea. But this endless namecalling and defending of own positions does nothing to the people who actually have had a part in this tragedy.

Thank You.

Your lack of research on your own is your problem; you ask first grader questions for veiled reasons you have not revealed (not totally). Your lack of preparation and dumb question are annoying.

I do not care how well you write and express yourself; your lack of facts and shallow research make your efforts seem fraudulent at best.

What is your game?

You show a total lack of transparency; and have failed to lay out your cards. You ask questions to people who are fed up with the trying to make small things about 9/11 into major evidence for some CT.

You now post lessons for all? What is your problem? You have the real dumb questions; you take a trivial item and try to imply it is a CT factoid.

Am I jumping to conclusions; in your case it does not matter since you are way to smart to be critiqued by mortals.

Sides, you think you can pick sides and discuss? The CT world is a fraud; you fell for it; your intellectual bull has failed you in a game of facts. Either you are incredibly fact challenged or biased politically to the point you do not care about facts.

Are you:

Fact challenged?

or

Politically biased?

Simple questions even a CT guy can answer. You have missed the train; the facts were available on 9/11, enough facts for flight 93 to make decisions and stop the terrorist; you have had 5 years to find facts and failed. Flight 93 heroes took minutes to make correct decisions; you have five years and make wrong decisions. You have failed to comprehend the basic facts of the case and you are still lost this very moment. Finish a degree in something like engineering and try again. Or learn to think and use facts.

 

[chacal]

What I really would be looking for, is more co-operation between the sides. Right now you are in and endless situation. The other side makes claims, and the other side debunks them. Then comes namecalling and ridiculing. After that the wall between the sides grows even more.
<snip>

I don't see any sides in these debates, only private persons with differing opinions. On this forum for example most people like to have facts and evidence to base their beliefs on. This is not the case on many other forums and sites. There are no sides with facts and evidence only right and wrong. Should credible evidence for any criminal foul play regarding 9/11 emerge, I and most rational people would change their beliefs accordingly.

<snip>
I was thinking from their perspective. How insane that may be. If you recall what I actually said was two options. Osama either thought they could take the US like they did Soviet Union in the 80'es, or he never even thought to fight but abandoned his old buddies and went hiding. That is all I said. Stop assuming anything beyond that, please.

Your two options are the options of a westener. These people are religious fanatics and in their minds the mujahedeen are already dead. They hate life and love death. They are more resiliant and motivated than you and their numbers are growing and they are not going away soon.

If you would like to speculate why Osama didn't martyr himself in for example Torabora there could be several explanatoins such as he was more valuable to the cause alive. You might want to investigate the Jihadi movement and the mind set of them.

 

[Gravy]

Speaking of barbara olson, I don't know anything about the credit card thing but she spent her remaining years pressuring the clintons to come clean in attempt to expose their involvement in the vincent foster assassination in '93. I guess 9/11 took care a lot of things for the clintons.

349, geggy.

 

[Gravy]

They are quite hard to destruct though.

And I think you'll agree that the data recorders in all four crashes were subjected to quite extreme conditions. The recorders at the WTC had the added disadvantage of having two billion pounds of building come down on them, causing fires that lasted for months.

Here's the CVR from flight 77. Data were recovered from the FDR.

​

 

[Gravy]

Your two options are the options of a westener.

Exactly. ref is not "thinking from their perspective" at all. He's thinking about what he values.

 

[Bell]

Hey Bell, look what I found at mazeguy.net

EXCELLENT!

 

[T.A.M.]

I actually would disagree with Chacal here, and say that I think there are sides to be taken. The reason i say this, is because we are talking about groups of people, who in cyberspace at least, have chosen a group of people they tend to agree with, and from them they seek knowledge. Those people they tend to defend. Now for some, the "side" thing is not as obvious or even chosen, but I think it is still there.

The sides, I believe are,

1. The REAL TRUTH side. Our side. A side that believes in FACTS, EXPERT OPINIONS, REAL EVIDENCE, and that these things not only provide us with the answers, but are PARAMOUNT to the REAL TRUTH.

2. The 9/11 truth movement side. A side that seems to place a lot of weight on inconsistencies and coincidences. These things are the keys to their beliefs. Add in a paranoia for all that is government and big brother, and you have the heart of their "side".

I am usually one of the first on this forum to act as an arbitor of peace and civility, but that does not mean I do not see this as a battle. It is. It is a battle to provide all who come here with the REAL TRUTH. If that means I have to take sides and debate against those who provide rediculous, ill concieved, ill evidenced theories, than so be it.

I don't see things changing. When I first started this stuff, I thought the CTers could be converted, could be made to see the light. This rarely happens, and I know now that this is not the goal. As a result, my desire to "help" the CTers has severely diminished. My goal now is to reveal the bullcrap in their lies, for all those with REAL questions to see.

TAM