Pre-Fertilization Mutations?

[Kumar]

Hello all,

We previously had materialistic discussions in "Post-Fertilization topic" and do come to some conclusion. I hope we can also discuss similarily in this topic--to share something.

Several diseases so considered as heriditary/genetic eg. Diabetes, can be the result of two factors, primarily.

A. One is mutations in genes of gamete of any or both parents.

B. Second is intrauterine environmental factors (which may be influnced by outer environments effects) & which can effect the pre-disposed mutated genes to enhance/early the onset of any genetic disease or add to its magnitude alike epidemic out-break as is happening in case of diabetes etc.

But lat us discuss here first the "A' part of it i.e.mutations in genes of gamete of any or both parents-- Pre-Fertilization.

Can you tell how & where these mutations can take place, which makes the genes of any Gamete (sperm and egg) sensitive & pre-disposed to intrauterine environmental effects? We may more concentrate on "If Mutations on Gamate's Transport?".

In this repect I mention here two links, which may help us in reffering/discussing this topic:-

Fertilization
Gamete Transport

Best Wishes!!

 

[Anders]

Look up transpons. One reason to hereditary diseases.

Also, of just one of the parents has a faulty gene and the other don't it's ok. But it's just simple genetics, not that complicated.

 

[Kumar]

Anders, sorry, I am not able to understand "transpons". Can you bit explain it?

 

[Anders]

Transposons are genes that can move. It dettache it self from the DNA strand, move to another part of the DNA strand, or another chromosome, and attache it self. It does so by using the protein that it self code.

There are different classes of transposons.

 

[Kumar]

Transposons are genes that can move. It dettache it self from the DNA strand, move to another part of the DNA strand, or another chromosome, and attache it self. It does so by using the protein that it self code.

There are different classes of transposons.

Thanks. How these are a reason to hereditary diseases?

 

[Kumar]

Outer environmental imbalances can cause imbalances in body's internal "Optimal Environments" i.e. pH, tempreture etc.

Can these imbalances in the Optimal Environments of our Internal body or Reproductive system , cause damages to our genes or our genotype & phynotype developments?

 

[BillHoyt]

Outer environmental imbalances can cause imbalances in body's internal "Optimal Environments" i.e. pH, tempreture etc.

Can these imbalances in the Optimal Environments of our Internal body or Reproductive system , cause damages to our genes or our genotype & phynotype developments?

Can you tell how & where these mutations can take place, which makes the genes of any Gamete (sperm and egg) sensitive & pre-disposed to intrauterine environmental effects? We may more concentrate on "If Mutations on Gamate's Transport?".

Kumar,

I think you missed this point when I raised it on the other thread: there is no mutation event here. The problem, I think, is the simplified genetics language being used, as well as the dual meaning of "mutation."

"Mutation" can mean the event in which a gene changes from A to A¹, where A¹ is something slightly different from A.

"Mutation" can also mean an "allele" that is different from the "wild type." That is, a particular gene may have the A allele as the most frequently seen allele. This A allele is called the "wild type." All other alleles of this gene, A¹, A ², A ³ are considered mutations of it.

What this means in our discussion is that the mutations that cause some forms of diabetes are not new. They have been in humans for hundreds of thousands of years or more. There is, therefore, nothing in our modern environment that is causing "gene damage." There is, however, a dietary trigger that causes the non-wild-type alleles to do their damage, and to do it earlier than we have generally seen in the past.

 

[Kumar]

BillHoyt,

It makes me more sense as I was suspecting less possibilties of mutations by so simplified means during one or two generations. Now let us conclude that in all or most cases of modern outbreak of any so called as a genetic/hereditary disease-- it can't be 'genetic damage or mutation based' but can be 'environmental factors based'.

Under this conclusion, we may have to understand that how external environmental factors (modern lifestyle,pollution,diet etc.) can influence internal environment ( optimal pH, tempreture etc.) which may lead to some developmental & structural defects--pre or post fertilization.

Suppose outer env. factors influence pH(lowering it) & temp.(raising it) of reproductive system ( semenal fluid, vagina etc.): can it cause some damage to sperms--which may lead to some defects in the offsprings? When temp. of testes can effect sperms quantity, alkaline environment of semen can save sperms & acidic env. of vagina can kill most of them, then any minor change in body's temp. & pH (influenced by outer environment) can't do any genetic or environmental damage to sperms leading to outbreak.?

In short, we have to check the effect of internal environmental imbalances (pH, temp.etc.) influenced by outer env. factors of reproductive system on sperms in terms of any possible damage(not destruction) to them?

 

[BillHoyt]

BillHoyt,

It makes me more sense as I was suspecting less possibilties of mutations by so simplified means during one or two generations. Now let us conclude that in all or most cases of modern outbreak of any so called as a genetic/hereditary disease-- it can't be 'genetic damage or mutation based' but can be 'environmental factors based'.

Under this conclusion, we may have to understand that how external environmental factors (modern lifestyle,pollution,diet etc.) can influence internal environment ( optimal pH, tempreture etc.) which may lead to some developmental & structural defects--pre or post fertilization.

Suppose outer env. factors influence pH(lowering it) & temp.(raising it) of reproductive system ( semenal fluid, vagina etc.): can it cause some damage to sperms--which may lead to some defects in the offsprings? When temp. of testes can effect sperms quantity, alkaline environment of semen can save sperms & acidic env. of vagina can kill most of them, then any minor change in body's temp. & pH (influenced by outer environment) can't do any genetic or environmental damage to sperms leading to outbreak.?

In short, we have to check the effect of internal environmental imbalances (pH, temp.etc.) influenced by outer env. factors of reproductive system on sperms in terms of any possible damage(not destruction) to them?

Kumar,

Must every dialogue with you end with you trying to insert your pH notions in? We have cited for you several papers so far that identify the specifics of the problem. The problem has nothing to do with pH, and everything to do with the production of proteins that don't handle their end of metabolysis properly.

Now I've also participated in far too many threads with you that concerned the whole notion of blood pH being seriously affected by dietary shifts. I have pointed out to you (months ago, IIRC) that blood pH is controlled by natural buffers. Here I mean "buffer" in the chemical sense. A buffered solution maintains stable pHs even with influxes of either acids or bases.

The other point I (and others) have tried to make clear is there is no damage to sperm or damage to the genes. Now since I had just wrote this again, and quite clearly for you, I can only assume you are being deliberately obtuse and posting disingenuously.

I repeat:

o There is no mutation event here, Kumar,
o There is no inheritance of acquired characteristics, Kumar,
o There is no environmental damage to genes, Kumar
o There is a dietary trigger that can speed up the manifestation of symptoms caused by defective genes that have always been in the population, Kumar.

 

[Kumar]

I repeat:

o There is no mutation event here, Kumar,
o There is no inheritance of acquired characteristics, Kumar,
o There is no environmental damage to genes, Kumar
o There is a dietary trigger that can speed up the manifestation of symptoms caused by defective genes that have always been in the population, Kumar.

BillHoyt,

Sorry, I remain bit confused till everything is clear to me.

Under your above clarifications, it looks that predisposed genes are not much changed but just speed up the symptoms due to dietary or other environmental imbalances. In this consideration, I want to clear that: will these genes pass this manifestation to their next generation (it looks they can't as not genetic changes) & if dietary & other environmental imbalances are corrected the next generation should not suffer from diabetes? Is it ok.?

 

[Rolfe]

I think Kumar doesn't really grasp the complexities of the whole mutation thing. A mutation in a gene will cause a different amino acid to be inserted into the relevant protein. This may have no effect, or it may totally nix the protein's effectiveness, or something in between. The effect depends entirely on just what that amino acid substitution does to the resultant protein.

Some proteins are particularly prone to trouble. The medics will tell you more about this, but Duchenne's muscular dystrophy involves an error in a particularly large protein essential for muscle function. It's sex-linked, meaning the gene is on the X chromosome. Girls are usually safe, because even if they have a faulty gene, they will almost certanly have a correct gene on their other X chromosome to produce the needed protein. Affected boys, however, seldom live long enough to have children of their own. As a result it has been estimated that about 25% of new cases are de-novo mutations, unrelated to any of the other known cases. Same disease, though. In contrast, in many other genetic diseases all affected patients can be traced back to the single individual who carried the original mutation.

Kumar, maybe it would be good if you studied some basic molecular biology and genetics as well as the biochemistry and physiology we keep urging you to study. You can't get a full university-level education by asking questions on Internet bulletin boards, however hard you try, and it would really be nice to have an informed discussion with you one day.

Except, we know, you don't want to learn anything which might go against your pre-conceived beliefs, which is a bit of an obstacle to getting any sort of an education I'm afraid.

Rolfe.

 

[Zep]

Here we go again...

Remember, folks, Kumar ALWAYS asks questions, NEVER answers them, and he doesn't listen to your answers anyway (as this short set of responses shows all too clearly already). And sooner or later he will get back to bodily pH values and tissue salts.

However, let us try...

Kumar, what is your purpose of starting this topic and asking these questions? And please don't say "so we can all learn".

 

[Kumar]

I think Kumar doesn't really grasp the complexities of the whole mutation thing. A mutation in a gene will cause a different amino acid to be inserted into the relevant protein. This may have no effect, or it may totally nix the protein's effectiveness, or something in between. The effect depends entirely on just what that amino acid substitution does to the resultant protein.

Some proteins are particularly prone to trouble. The medics will tell you more about this, but Duchenne's muscular dystrophy involves an error in a particularly large protein essential for muscle function. It's sex-linked, meaning the gene is on the X chromosome. Girls are usually safe, because even if they have a faulty gene, they will almost certanly have a correct gene on their other X chromosome to produce the needed protein. Affected boys, however, seldom live long enough to have children of their own. As a result it has been estimated that about 25% of new cases are de-novo mutations, unrelated to any of the other known cases. Same disease, though. In contrast, in many other genetic diseases all affected patients can be traced back to the single individual who carried the original mutation.

Hi Rolfe, welcome & thanks. Do you mean that everything is in genes are just amino acids & any change in their arrangements means 'mutations' which may or may not show gene expessions depending upon their exposure to 'environmental factors'. I want to clear that:

Where & how these mutuations occur in gemetes?

Do the genes are only composed to protiens no other bio-chemicals?

Can exposure of gemetes to imbalanced internal environmental factors (optimal pH, temp. etc.) cause mutations or any other damage in their DNA/ genes?

You may tell briefly.

PS:
Gene: The functional and physical unit of heredity passed from parent to offspring. Genes are pieces of DNA, and most genes contain the information for making a specific protein.

Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA): The substance of heredity; a large molecule that carries the genetic information necessary for all cellular functions, including the building of proteins. DNA is composed of the sugar deoxyribose, phosphate, and the bases adenine, thymine, guanine, and cytosine.

 

[Zep]

Hi Rolfe, welcome & thanks. Do you mean that everything is in genes are just amino acids & any change in their arrangements means 'mutations' which may or may not show gene expessions depending upon their exposure to 'environmental factors'. I want to clear that:

Where & how these mutuations occur in gemetes?

Do the genes are only composed to protiens no other bio-chemicals?

Can exposure of gemetes to imbalanced internal environmental factors (optimal pH, temp. etc.) cause mutations or any other damage in their DNA/ genes?

You may tell briefly.

Didn't take long, did it...

 

[Rolfe]

.... everything is in genes are just amino acids....

Do the genes are only composed to protiens no other bio-chemicals?

Despite the PS, which seems to be Kumar quoting something he doesn't understand, the ignorance demonstrated by this post is so profound that I really don't think there's much hope.

Kumar, this forum is not here to provide you with a basic biological education. Go read a book.

Rolfe.

 

[BillHoyt]

BillHoyt,

Sorry, I remain bit confused till everything is clear to me.

Under your above clarifications, it looks that predisposed genes are not much changed but just speed up the symptoms due to dietary or other environmental imbalances. In this consideration, I want to clear that: will these genes pass this manifestation to their next generation (it looks they can't as not genetic changes) & if dietary & other environmental imbalances are corrected the next generation should not suffer from diabetes? Is it ok.?

No, Kumar, you are not confused. We've been over this territory multiple times. You have this pH nonsense firmly rooted in your mind and will twist and distort all other information to fit it. For the last freakin' time, Kumar:

o The genes are not altered by the diet.
o There is no inheritance of acquired characterisitcs here.


As for your other post, already commented on:
o Genes are not composed of amino acids
o Genes are not proteins

 

[Kumar]

Rolfe, we may get somethig in searching bit differantly.

BH,

My first & second question may be common. But you can reply my last question:-

Can exposure of gemetes to imbalanced internal environmental factors (optimal pH, temp. etc.) cause mutations or any other damage in their DNA/ genes & if modern lifestyle is coeected by any generation, do we still get this type of diabetes?

It looks hereditary/genetic effects are not much involvrd in recent outbreak & only lifestyle changes can be a cause to it, which if cirrected will also correct this outbreak. It may be more evident in typeII & Insulin resistance cases. Is it ok?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Kumar:

Correct, the ongoing rise in Diabetes (esp. type 2) is not due to a new genetic situation, but to a change in lifestyle, so that more of the people who are predisposed for the disease will get it.

And correct, if lifestyle is changed on the grand scale, the incidence of the disease will fall back to earlier levels.

Which is what we have been trying to explain to you all along.

Well, I'm glad we finally came through.

Hans

 

[BillHoyt]

Can exposure of gemetes to imbalanced internal environmental factors (optimal pH, temp. etc.) cause mutations or any other damage in their DNA/ genes & if modern lifestyle is coeected by any generation, do we still get this type of diabetes?

"Imbalanced" factors? No. Extremes of pH, temperature, etc, possibly, but the gametes would be dead under most of those extremes and would never get to fertilization.

The basic answer to the genetics mutation problem is there is no mutation event here, Kumar. I explained the dual meaning of "mutation" before.

It looks hereditary/genetic effects are not much involvrd in recent outbreak & only lifestyle changes can be a cause to it, which if cirrected will also correct this outbreak. It may be more evident in typeII & Insulin resistance cases. Is it ok?

Yes, this is correct.

 

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans, BH,

I think we are now able to conclude the discussions. It made me more satisfied the root cause of outbreak of modern diabetes is not genetic/hereditary & we can atleast do something for our children. Thanks.

Can you tell me how modern lifestyle changes can cause genetically predisposed people to get diabetes?

Few animals in captivity or by changing their environment do not reproduce or die early, is it by psyclogical or technical reasons?